Armed Siege in Sydney

[M1cha3la]

Another hostage has sadly died according to the papers. My heart goes out to all those involved and those who have lost loved ones. A very sad day..

[WeegieDave]

Heads Will role..Apparently on BAIL. .apparently killed his ex wife. .40 counts of serious sexual assault..Violence. .sending hate mail to families of Australian families who's family were killed in Afghanistan. .bail! !!! No wonder I never felt safe in Oz!

 

Most regulars on the board know your feelings on Australia but you are delusional if you think the situation is any better in Britain.

[wakeboard1980]

Why was this criminal allowed out of jail? The legal system has a lot to answer for.

Good question. People with ths guys kind of record should be in jail, not out on bail. Lock them up until they are found not guilty, if tey are innocent. People dead, a cop shot in the face, other hostages shot and injured all because we are not tough enough on criminals.

[Frozen]

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He doesn't really look like a terrorist. Looks like a normal guy.

 

Just goes to show you can't judge a book by its cover.

 

You are joking right?!?! Or please enlighten us to "how a terrorist looks like"? Is there a certain set of attire? Hair colour? Gender? .......

[WeegieDave]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27723[/ATTACH]

 

He doesn't really look like a terrorist. Looks like a normal guy.

 

Just goes to show you can't judge a book by its cover.

 

The terrorists that strapped bombs to their backs and blew up trains and buses in London just looked like normal guys too. They didn't look like something out of Team America... You do say the strangest things sometimes :rolleyes:

[Parley]

I suppose that was my point (which you may not have got).

 

But radical terrorists are normally much younger anyway in their 20s. This guy is 50.

A self stlyled cleric usually inspires others rather than does the deed himself.

 

I think this particular guy is more a criminal than a terrorist but we may learn more soon.

[Parley]

The terrorists that strapped bombs to their backs and blew up trains and buses in London just looked like normal guys too. They didn't look like something out of Team America... You do say the strangest things sometimes :rolleyes:

 

Nice to see you back Dave.

You sure went into hiding after the election result, I was worried after you disappeared like that straight after.

[WeegieDave]

No hiding from me mate. Just been a busy man! :wink:

[WeegieDave]

I suppose that was my point (which you may not have got).

 

But radical terrorists are normally much younger anyway in their 20s. This guy is 50.

A self stlyled cleric usually inspires others rather than does the deed himself.

 

I think this particular guy is more a criminal than a terrorist but we may learn more soon.

 

I'm pretty sure he'd fall under the definition of terrorist!

[Skani]

No wonder I never felt safe in Oz!

 

Yes...I'm sure the hundreds of victims of the 2005 London bombings were thinking "At least I'm not in Oz...I'd never feel safe there". :rolleyes:

[akiralx]

I agree with this article on the bizarre behaviour which took place during the tragic events:

 

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/martin-place-cafe-siege-overreaction-from-fear-is-a-measure-of-a-terrorists-success-20141215-127rih.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn:twi-13omn1677-edtrl-other:nnn-17/02/2014-edtrs_socialshare-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o&sa=D&usg=ALhdy28zsr6qiq

[Guest]

Yes...I'm sure the hundreds of victims of the 2005 London bombings were thinking "At least I'm not in Oz...I'd never feel safe there". :rolleyes:

 

 

And Lee Rigby and the incident that happened in Ottawa.

 

To use a sad act of terrorism to try and fit an agenda is very sad indeed and misleading to anyone who wants to move out here. There is a general shock here that it has happened in Australia, as these incidents usually happen elsewhere in the world which Australia feels somewhat disconnected from.

[Parley]

I was thinking last night what would I do if I was one of the hostages.

 

I sort of daydream that I would take action rather than meekly be a hostage. Probably watching too much tv or die hard movies.

 

BUT, if I thought he was a nutter and was going to kill someone I reckon I would try and stop him, obviously waiting for that right opportunity when he is distracted.

[robfromdublin]

The problem with that is if you aren't trained in disarming and/or incapacitating someone immediately then you may end up exacerbating the situation. Obviously we don't know exactly what happened yet, but it's possible that one of the hostages tried to do that, which caused those loud noises to be heard and then the police to storm the building, with two innocents caught in the crossfire. Now that's one of many plausible situations but I reckon in a hostage situation like that you'd be better off letting negotiations continue.

 

Of course, if it was something like the 9/11 plane when passengers overwhelmed the terrorists and everyone died then that's a very different situation and really quite heroic.

[Parley]

The trouble with these ISIS followers though is that they usually set out to kill someone, to show off to the world.

 

I was actually expecting that this guy wanted to behead someone and film it but thank god that didn't happen.

I was surprised it went the way it did as I thought he would quickly be killing people.

 

Yes I know what you are saying and you are right, but if an ISIS terrorist is the perp they usually are going to kill anyway.

[robfromdublin]

Good question. People with ths guys kind of record should be in jail, not out on bail. Lock them up until they are found not guilty, if tey are innocent. People dead, a cop shot in the face, other hostages shot and injured all because we are not tough enough on criminals.

 

 

The only conviction he had was for writing hate letters. Jail is not appropriate for something like that.

 

As for your idea of internment without trial, it's generally only done in dictatorships and is entirely counter-productive in a democratic society. Just look at what happened when Britain did it in the 70s. It ended up being a recruitment tool for terrorists and Britain was subjected to another two and a half decades of bombings.

[robfromdublin]

The trouble with these ISIS followers though is that they usually set out to kill someone, to show off to the world.

 

I was actually expecting that this guy wanted to behead someone and film it but thank god that didn't happen.

I was surprised it went the way it did as I thought he would quickly be killing people.

 

Yes I know what you are saying and you are right, but if an ISIS terrorist is the perp they usually are going to kill anyway.

 

Yes but he wasn't associated with ISIS. He wasn't part of their organisation and it had nothing to do with them. Except for the fact he asked for an ISIS flag, there would be no other connection. The fact he couldn't even get his hands on an ISIS flag ahead of time suggests he really was a lone nutter.

[Parley]

The only conviction he had was for writing hate letters. Jail is not appropriate for something like that.

 

As for your idea of internment without trial, it's generally only done in dictatorships and is entirely counter-productive in a democratic society. Just look at what happened when Britain did it in the 70s. It ended up being a recruitment tool for terrorists and Britain was subjected to another two and a half decades of bombings.

 

He had been charged with accessory to murder of his wife or ex wife.

He should have been on remand for that.

[Freckleface]

The only conviction he had was for writing hate letters. Jail is not appropriate for something like that.

 

As for your idea of internment without trial, it's generally only done in dictatorships and is entirely counter-productive in a democratic society. Just look at what happened when Britain did it in the 70s. It ended up being a recruitment tool for terrorists and Britain was subjected to another two and a half decades of bombings.

 

 

Only 'conviction' to date however he also faced numerous charges relating to crimes committed shorty after he arrived including from his time working as a “spiritual healer” – including 22 counts of aggravated sexual assault and 14 counts of aggravated indecent assault – and had been bailed for allegedly being an accessory to the killing of his former wife.

 

When Monis, who was also known as Mohammad Hassan Manteghi, appeared in court in October over the sex assault allegations, police charged him with 40 additional offences.

 

Personally I think jail would have been a perfectly reasonable place for someone like him to be held pending his trial(s).

[robfromdublin]

Yeah I was surprised he was out for that. According to an article I was reading today though, the prosecution case was really quite weak and that's why he was out. Also, as it was a domestic incident he wasn't considered a threat to the public

[robfromdublin]

Sorry that referred to the attempted murder charge. You would have thought the sexual assault charges would have incorporated a threat to the public, but we don't really know the circumstances.

 

I was thinking of a similar sexual assault case (Rolf Harris) and googled it there. He was out on bail AFTER being found guilty, but prior to sentencing! I don't remember there being an outcry for that. Remember judges have to be impartial. You can't have a situation where people are interned without trial, or where some people are given bail and others not based purely on age/appearance/religion. Even if, when you look at all the evidence together, it appears that jail is probably the best option.

[Guest Guest 47403]

Most regulars on the board know your feelings on Australia but you are delusional if you think the situation is any better in Britain.

Pretty shameful starting point scoring on a thread like this!

 

I think its probably about as good an outcome as could have been hoped for, at least no major propaganda material for the terrorists.

 

The guy that died tackling the gunman deserves major recognition for his bravery.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Guest 47403

[Guest]

Can we change the title of this thread? He wasnt an ISIS terrorist, he only converted to Sunni Islam very recently. He was a sad loaner that wanted/needed attention and tried to wrap it up in the ISIS propaganda. Lets not give airplay to ISIS by attributing this sad and outrageous act to them.

The police have been very careful to call this a hostage situation and a criminal one not a terrorist one. We should follow their lead.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/16/sydney-siege-dont-call-man-haron-monis-a-terrorist-it-only-helps-isis

[Paul1Perth]

Heads Will role..Apparently on BAIL. .apparently killed his ex wife. .40 counts of serious sexual assault..Violence. .sending hate mail to families of Australian families who's family were killed in Afghanistan. .bail! !!! No wonder I never felt safe in Oz!

 

It will be time for the blame game to start now I suppose. Blame the police, blame the security forces, blame the justice system for him not being behind bars, blame the system that let him in. Now a lot of people will understand why a lot of so called refugees need a good long time to check out there background and some of them never get in.

 

I think you'll find the law is much the same in the UK W and W, he would probably have been out on bail there too. I'm sorry and surprised that you never felt safe in Oz, I feel safe here and I felt safe in the UK. You would have to be seriously unlucky to be involved in any of this **** in either country.

 

Check this article out for what the UK and soldiers had to put up with.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286784/Muslim-protesters-brand-war-heroes-murderers-homecoming-parade-turns-violent.html

 

What would you have done W & W? Lock them all up?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Paul1Perth

[Paul1Perth]

Only 'conviction' to date however he also faced numerous charges relating to crimes committed shorty after he arrived including from his time working as a “spiritual healer” – including 22 counts of aggravated sexual assault and 14 counts of aggravated indecent assault – and had been bailed for allegedly being an accessory to the killing of his former wife.

 

When Monis, who was also known as Mohammad Hassan Manteghi, appeared in court in October over the sex assault allegations, police charged him with 40 additional offences.

 

Personally I think jail would have been a perfectly reasonable place for someone like him to be held pending his trial(s).

 

I'm totally with you on this Freckleface, trouble is the jails are packed to capacity and if we jailed everyone with records like his Aus would be accused of being some kind of backward country, for clamping down and trying to keep it's citizens safe. I guess you have to have confidence in the law of the land and procedures. I'm sure the police that brought the charges will be feeling sick right now that he wasn't behind bars. I'm pretty sure they will feel let down by the system and I've seen enough disappointed looking cops in the past when some smart Alec lawyer and a lenient judge get people like him off.