Validation of 190 visas

[stevej]

Hi There

 

Been a long time since i have visited this site as we as a family were granted our 190 visas in Sep 2019. Since that time we have been through a whirlwind of events with covid, relationship breakdown, health issues etc. Any way my question is this, The travel element of our visas expires sep 2024, I am secondary applicant to my wife. Our relationship has broken down and will end in divorce, due to covid and children eduction timings we didn't end up validating which i know is not an issue on its own.

My question is, if the primary applicant doesn't validate her visa by the travel expiry sep 2024 but i as secondary applicant and our two dependent children do validate, will her lack of validation cancel our visas?

I can't find the answer online for this specific situation.

 

Kind regards

Steve

[Marisawright]

Just checking, did you all activate your visas within the required time (within 1 year after grant)?   If you did, then my understanding is that you all have a visa in your own right, and therefore it doesn't matter whether the primary applicant ever moves.  

[stevej]

Hi

 

Sorry if i wasn't clear, we haven't validated visas as within 6 months of being granted covid hit and there was restrictions on just making validation trips etc. As it stands none of us have validated yet, We know that seen as we don't have any conditions such 8502 or 8504 on our visas then we don't have to wait for primary to validate first and we don't have to move to sponsoring state for 2 years first either. My question is if my two children(Dependents) and myself (secondary applicant) validate our visas before the 5 year travel expiry but the primary (wife) does not, will that cancel all our visas?

 

 

[Tulip1]

You say validate them within the five years but I think they’ve expired as you needed to validate them within 12 months.  Holders of PR visas were never stopped from entering Australia and that is what you would have been in that 12 months.  I would say you no longer have visas.  Even if you did as you have now ended the relationship with the main applicant your part of the application is invalid.  Pretty sure all that is correct but I’m no expert.  

[stevej]

24 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

You say validate them within the five years but I think they’ve expired as you needed to validate them within 12 months.  Holders of PR visas were never stopped from entering Australia and that is what you would have been in that 12 months.  I would say you no longer have visas.  Even if you did as you have now ended the relationship with the main applicant your part of the application is invalid.  Pretty sure all that is correct but I’m no expert.  

HI Thanks for your reply,

 

No that first entry date is not a reason to cancel visa as stated on the Gov website, I have been told that the end of relationship is only an issue upto point visa is granted which it was after. As PR we were not stopped from migrating but you were not able to visit just to validate hence the gov putting clarification on the first entry not being reason to cancel visa.

We were unable to visit Oz during covid due to my wife working 60hrs weeks as nurse fighting the covid pandemic here in uk. I know there has been no restrictions for 18 months but we have since that point been dealing with the separation arrangements and finances.

The issue is that now we are at this stage im unsure if the main applicant will validate visa as she doesn't communicate with me having left me and the children to live her new life.

My initial concern was that seen as she gained partner points for myself that the divorce might invalidate the visa but this has been confirmed to not be the case by a MARN agent.

The PR does not expire at 5 year point only the travel entitlement you can apply for RRV within 10 years of last being in Oz as PR according to gov website

Edited October 11, 2023 by stevej

[paulhand]

2 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

 I would say you no longer have visas.  Even if you did as you have now ended the relationship with the main applicant your part of the application is invalid.

The first part of this is incorrect ... the OP's visa may have been cancelled, but not for missing the initial entry date. This can be checked on VEVO.

The second part is basically right - if you have not made a first entry to Australia on the visa, you are required, as noted in the grant letter, to update the Department of any change in circumstances. If the circumstances that would have led to the grant of the visa have changed (i.e. your relationship with the primary applicant), then they may well decide to cancel your visa. 

This has nothing to do with whether your ex-wife has entered Australia or not.

1 hour ago, stevej said:

I have been told that the end of relationship is only an issue upto point visa is granted which it was after.

You have been told incorrectly if you were offshore at grant.

 

1 hour ago, stevej said:

The PR does not expire at 5 year point only the travel entitlement you can apply for RRV within 10 years of last being in Oz as PR according to gov website

This is not strictly true and based on your circumstances you would be very unlikely to be granted an RRV in any case.

I think it would be a good idea to get some professional advice on how all of this works in practice, as it's not really a subject for forum discussion.

[stevej]

8 minutes ago, paulhand said:

The first part of this is incorrect ... the OP's visa may have been cancelled, but not for missing the initial entry date. This can be checked on VEVO.

The second part is basically right - if you have not made a first entry to Australia on the visa, you are required, as noted in the grant letter, to update the Department of any change in circumstances. If the circumstances that would have led to the grant of the visa have changed (i.e. your relationship with the primary applicant), then they may well decide to cancel your visa. 

This has nothing to do with whether your ex-wife has entered Australia or not.

You have been told incorrectly if you were offshore at grant.

 

This is not strictly true and based on your circumstances you would be very unlikely to be granted an RRV in any case.

I think it would be a good idea to get some professional advice on how all of this works in practice, as it's not really a subject for forum discussion.

Again thank you for your reply and time. As stated above the information I have been given is direct from a MARN registered agent. The only bit I’m awaiting answer on is the issue of primary applicant doesn’t validate at all. 
 

I have checked VEVO and visas are still valid as there is no reason for them to be cancelled. The first entry date is not used as reason to cancel visa and the MARN agent has confirmed the relationship status is only an issue upto point of decision for grant is made. I have now had professional advice and awaiting answer to if primary doesn’t validate how that will affect things. A RRV is not required at this stage as we can still move over before sep next year and as long as we have strong ties would be granted a RRV even if only 3 month one for essential trips. 
 

thanks

 

[Tulip1]

1 hour ago, stevej said:

Again thank you for your reply and time. As stated above the information I have been given is direct from a MARN registered agent. The only bit I’m awaiting answer on is the issue of primary applicant doesn’t validate at all. 
 

I have checked VEVO and visas are still valid as there is no reason for them to be cancelled. The first entry date is not used as reason to cancel visa and the MARN agent has confirmed the relationship status is only an issue upto point of decision for grant is made. I have now had professional advice and awaiting answer to if primary doesn’t validate how that will affect things. A RRV is not required at this stage as we can still move over before sep next year and as long as we have strong ties would be granted a RRV even if only 3 month one for essential trips. 
 

thanks

 

Paul above is a highly regarded MARA agent.  You can be confident what he says is correct.   Perhaps take a look at your grant letter and challenge the person who gave you the incorrect answer.  

[Nemesis]

1 hour ago, stevej said:

Again thank you for your reply and time. As stated above the information I have been given is direct from a MARN registered agent. The only bit I’m awaiting answer on is the issue of primary applicant doesn’t validate at all. 
 

I have checked VEVO and visas are still valid as there is no reason for them to be cancelled. The first entry date is not used as reason to cancel visa and the MARN agent has confirmed the relationship status is only an issue upto point of decision for grant is made. I have now had professional advice and awaiting answer to if primary doesn’t validate how that will affect things. A RRV is not required at this stage as we can still move over before sep next year and as long as we have strong ties would be granted a RRV even if only 3 month one for essential trips. 
 

thanks

 

I have to agree with Paul on that one, I've seen several agents over the years say the same as him, if you are offshore at the time of the grant then change of circumstances between grant and validation has to be reported to the Department. I would say that your biggest sticking point. Never seen one give the advice that your agent has given, that it doesn't matter once the vias is granted. 

[stevej]

Thanks all

 

If things were to end up being incorrect what come back would we have with having written advice from another highly regarded MARN agent that we do not need to notify of the change. (I must stress there is no official change at this stage) this is fact finding mission to see what next steps would be. 

[paulhand]

I suggest you ask your professional advisor to reread section 104 of the Migration Act. 

[stevej]

2 minutes ago, paulhand said:

I suggest you ask your professional advisor to reread section 104 of the Migration Act. 

Thank you I will do that. I just want to be sure of my position and appreciate everyone’s input. 

[Tulip1]

26 minutes ago, stevej said:

Thanks all

 

If things were to end up being incorrect what come back would we have with having written advice from another highly regarded MARN agent that we do not need to notify of the change. (I must stress there is no official change at this stage) this is fact finding mission to see what next steps would be. 

You’ve stated your relationship has broken down and will end in divorce.  You’ve also said she doesn’t communicate with you or see her children and she’s gone off to live her new life.  If there’s no official change to your relationship then you have a very unusual relationship.  Better to be honest.  Your relationship is over and you want to take the kids to Australia to live and you’re trying to find out for sure if you’ll be able to/get away with it.   That’s an understandable thing to think.  The other thing to think about is if she hadn’t given her consent for the kids to move over then she can get them straight back under The Hague convention.  I don’t think something written by an agent will get you anywhere, the rules are the rules.  I feel for your situation and very much understand why you want to go.  That’s not the same as pretending you can and all is ok when you can’t and it’s not.  Best of luck. 

[stevej]

29 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

You’ve stated your relationship has broken down and will end in divorce.  You’ve also said she doesn’t communicate with you or see her children and she’s gone off to live her new life.  If there’s no official change to your relationship then you have a very unusual relationship.  Better to be honest.  Your relationship is over and you want to take the kids to Australia to live and you’re trying to find out for sure if you’ll be able to/get away with it.   That’s an understandable thing to think.  The other thing to think about is if she hadn’t given her consent for the kids to move over then she can get them straight back under The Hague convention.  I don’t think something written by an agent will get you anywhere, the rules are the rules.  I feel for your situation and very much understand why you want to go.  That’s not the same as pretending you can and all is ok when you can’t and it’s not.  Best of luck. 

Sorry you misunderstood the children will both be 18 so no Hague convention issues. The conflict between them is all about this visa situation. One child wants to go. Neither me nor other have plans to. 

[Tulip1]

9 minutes ago, stevej said:

Sorry you misunderstood the children will both be 18 so no Hague convention issues. The conflict between them is all about this visa situation. One child wants to go. Neither me nor other have plans to. 

Apologies.  I’d noticed you’d said on two occasions they were dependant children so assumed younger.    

[stevej]

31 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

Apologies.  I’d noticed you’d said on two occasions they were dependant children so assumed younger.    

That’s ok they were much younger back in 2019 when we got visas. Now 4 years on a lot has happened. We were supposed to go over June 2020 when eldest finished GCSE’s but covid hit and wife as critical care nurse was working all hours fighting the pandemic so we put everything on hold as could do anything with house etc anyway to move. Then timings slipped and we were waiting for youngest to be at good point after GCSEs to move and eldest after A-levels but then we started to have relationship issues. 

[Marisawright]

7 hours ago, stevej said:

Again thank you for your reply and time. As stated above the information I have been given is direct from a MARN registered agent. The only bit I’m awaiting answer on is the issue of primary applicant doesn’t validate at all. 
 

If you've already had advice from an agent then Paul can't comment further due to professional etiquette.  

If you had visited Australia to activate your visa within the initial year, the answer would be easy.  You and the kids would all have visas in your own right and can travel independently. 

The tricky part is that you didn't do that, so now you're in a limbo where you've been granted your visas but you haven't been immigration cleared.  In that case, section 104 applies.  Google and you'll find plenty of websites explaining this.  Here's just one:

https://www.cpemigration.com.au/blogs/fighting-visa-cancellations-hd6a2

So I think your agent is wrong.  

[InnerVoice]

5 hours ago, stevej said:

Sorry you misunderstood the children will both be 18 so no Hague convention issues. The conflict between them is all about this visa situation. One child wants to go. Neither me nor other have plans to. 

The simplest solution (if the 190 is no longer an option) for the child that wants to go is just get a WHV. Given their age there are likely to be other opportunities for permanent migration in the future in their own right - if after spending some time here they decide Australia is right for them.

[stevej]

6 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

The simplest solution (if the 190 is no longer an option) for the child that wants to go is just get a WHV. Given their age there are likely to be other opportunities for permanent migration in the future in their own right - if after spending some time here they decide Australia is right for them.

Thanks yes thats one option we have discussed, Child is intending to study in Oz as was always the plan and i know having PR would put her in much better position for HECS-HELP and even fees that need to be paid compared to being treated as international student etc. Im hoping we can validate soon and then if it does end up in divorce which is my impression after that maybe there is still a chance

[InnerVoice]

22 minutes ago, stevej said:

Thanks yes thats one option we have discussed, Child is intending to study in Oz as was always the plan and i know having PR would put her in much better position for HECS-HELP and even fees that need to be paid compared to being treated as international student etc. Im hoping we can validate soon and then if it does end up in divorce which is my impression after that maybe there is still a chance

That puts a different spin on it, and if that's their intention then you're definitely going to want to get them PR or it'll be very expensive. Good luck, and hope you can find a way.

[Quoll]

5 hours ago, stevej said:

Thanks yes thats one option we have discussed, Child is intending to study in Oz as was always the plan and i know having PR would put her in much better position for HECS-HELP and even fees that need to be paid compared to being treated as international student etc. Im hoping we can validate soon and then if it does end up in divorce which is my impression after that maybe there is still a chance

Won't be eligible for HECS Help because that is for citizens and humanitarian visa holders.  I think fees have to be paid up front by the term  for permanent residents.  There wont be any help with living expenses.  It'd be much cheaper to study in UK!

[Tulip1]

As Quoll says, your child would not get any help re studying fees nor would they be able to get any student loans (or the equivalent). Many have been caught out with that as with PR you get most of what is available to citizens and assume that includes uni help but it doesn’t. 

[rammygirl]

Much will also depend on what is studied.  Law for example is country specific. An Australian Law degree won’t let you practice in the UK without additional study for example. To try it out you could consider a UK degree that allows a year spent overseas and do that in Australia.  Extra funding is usually given to help with this.

[InnerVoice]

3 minutes ago, rammygirl said:

Much will also depend on what is studied.  Law for example is country specific. An Australian Law degree won’t let you practice in the UK without additional study for example. To try it out you could consider a UK degree that allows a year spent overseas and do that in Australia.  Extra funding is usually given to help with this.

A UK law degree won't let you practice law in the UK either, without additional study. You need to complete the Legal Practice Course (solicitor) or Bar Training Course (barrister), followed by a training contract / pupillage, and also pass all the professional exams. Many non-law graduates go into law without doing a law degree, as they complete a one-year graduate diploma in law. Doing a law degree from the outset only saves you one year on the whole process of becoming a solicitor or barrister compared with graduates in other fields.

[LettCat]

On 12/10/2023 at 02:03, Marisawright said:

If you've already had advice from an agent then Paul can't comment further due to professional etiquette.  

If you had visited Australia to activate your visa within the initial year, the answer would be easy.  You and the kids would all have visas in your own right and can travel independently. 

The tricky part is that you didn't do that, so now you're in a limbo where you've been granted your visas but you haven't been immigration cleared.  In that case, section 104 applies.  Google and you'll find plenty of websites explaining this.  Here's just one:

https://www.cpemigration.com.au/blogs/fighting-visa-cancellations-hd6a2up

So I think your agent is wrong.   

As far as I understand from this article, visa cancellation can happen at any time. And this is done at the discretion of the authorities. Only Australian citizenship guarantees a future in Australia.