adele244 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I totally understand the reasons why people feel that moving to Oz could be quite a selfish eg: taking your children away from their beloved grandparents, and vice versa, taking them away from their school and their friends and so forth. But what if............ You also had a business which employed 8 people including members of your family. You are very fond of the people you work with, my brother has special needs and the 16 hours work we give him, enables him to live in a nice little secure flat. If he didn't have the job with us, I doubt very very much he could get another, which would then probably force him to move into a cheaper council house (which are pretty run down around here) and due to his needs, I think he could possibly be a target. It also employs my Father and though he is due to retire soon, he still has a mortgage for the next couple of years, so he needs this job. Now our goal is to sell the business, so it hopefully can continue and negotiate some kind of agreement for the staff to stay (if that is at all possible) Then at least my conscience is eased slightly that everyone would still have their jobs. (and we would also have some funds to go over there with) You see, this decision we will make will affect so many people and I will wake up in the middle of the night thinking that we cant possibly do this to people, it just simply cant happen, I could be leaving my Dad and brother jobless if we don't manage to sell the business. Then my other part says that if we don't do this within the next 2 years we will be over 40 and we would no longer have enough points, so it really is now or never. I am absolutely torn, one minute thinking I am a horrible person for even contemplating doing this, but then I think that the end goal is to eventually sell the business anyway so I am going to have to go through all this moral dilemma at some point anyway. This is really, really tough for me :-( I need your honest opinions please, and don't feel you have to support me just to make me feel better. It is really a "What would you do?" in my position kinda question. Would your moral obligations outweigh your own desires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calNgary Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 If the business doesnt sell, could your Dad and brother not operate it or at least a smaller version ? Migrating is somewhat selfish, you do have to put you and your immediate family first. If i got wobbles prior to leaving ,i just used to ask myself '' would 'X' stay in this country ,just for me, or would they follow their dreams too'',,, 9 times out of 10, the answer was they would go for it if they could and wanted to. Big hugs, its a tough decision you have Cal x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I depends on what are your reasons for wanting to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 What visa are you going for? Is it PR, could you not apply, get your visa, validate it, then it gives you 5 years to move over for good, giving your dad his two years at least. I dont think it is selfish to want to emigrate, at the end of the day you are not responsible for everyone, you have your own life to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjg Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Agree with the others above, you have to live your own life, by the sounds of it you have been supporting your father and brother for a good many years already, and you are allowed to chase your own dreams you only get one chance at life, why regret what you didn't attempt in your dotage? Sorry, lots of one line clichès......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxlornaxx Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I would see if anyone was interested in buyin the business that would keep current staff but tell close family my plans so they have plenty time to prepare if they were going to need to find other jobs...I dnt think its selfish if u r honest with ppl abt what u want to do n give them time to tell u how they feel abt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 my brother has special needs and the 16 hours work we give him, enables him to live in a nice little secure flat. If he didn't have the job with us, I doubt very very much he could get another, which would then probably force him to move into a cheaper council house (which are pretty run down around here) and due to his needs, I think he could possibly be a target.It also employs my Father and though he is due to retire soon, he still has a mortgage for the next couple of years, so he needs this job. Now our goal is to sell the business, so it hopefully can continue and negotiate some kind of agreement for the staff to stay (if that is at all possible) Then at least my conscience is eased slightly that everyone would still have their jobs. It's a very tough decision, but unfortunately I don't think you can ease your conscience by making a deal with the new owner. Once the business is sold, the new owner can do what he likes regardless of what agreement he's made with you, and you'll have no comeback. Does the business 'carry' your brother or does he provide real value in those 16 hours? My own concern, based on your other threads, is that your main reason for moving to Australia seems to be the sunshine. I'm not at all sure that is a good enough reason considering the consequences you describe. How would you feel if, when you get to Australia, you discover that you don't like the other aspects of Australian life? Many Brits have that experience, because Australia isn't England with sunshine. The culture and attitudes are very different. How often have you visited and how long for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay24 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 You need to live your life. You don't know what would happen if you decided to stay - many things are possible that would cause changes in your company anyway. If this is your only chance to do what you and your husband have wanted to do, then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 It's a very tough decision, but unfortunately I don't think you can ease your conscience by making a deal with the new owner. Once the business is sold, the new owner can do what he likes regardless of what agreement he's made with you. Does the business 'carry' your brother or does he provide real value in those 16 hours? He does the menial tasks such as filing and data inputting etc, but without a doubt someone else could do a much faster job, so I have would have to say yes it probably dies carry him. Yes Marisa, I have already thought that the new owners really don't have to commit to anything, I think that is just wishful thinking. Oh dear, I keep thinking that I must be a horrible person. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noworriesmate Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 He does the menial tasks such as filing and data inputting etc, but without a doubt someone else could do a much faster job, so I have would have to say yes it probably dies carry him. Yes Marisa, I have already thought that the new owners really don't have to commit to anything, I think that is just wishful thinking. Oh dear, I keep thinking that I must be a horrible person. :-( If you need to sell your business then you will just have to make the choice but there is no getting away from the fact that others will link your move to Australia for your own happiness with them suffering loss (of some kind). I had (and have) a lot of friends working for me but always knew I would be living overseas at some point so built up the business so it could run without me being there. When I moved out here I kept my business and just stay in touch by Skype and return once a year to check up on things. I will sell the business in the next few years but it wont be linked in peoples minds to me moving here - I am already working on ways to have the business ready for sale so the staff won't even notice i've gone. So if you don't need to sell the business, think about keeping it for a year or so and then sell - you may be surprised (like I was) that your staff rise to the challenge, revel in the opportunity and make more money then you would have done because they have something to prove! NWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 It's a very tough decision, but unfortunately I don't think you can ease your conscience by making a deal with the new owner. Once the business is sold, the new owner can do what he likes regardless of what agreement he's made with you, and you'll have no comeback. Does the business 'carry' your brother or does he provide real value in those 16 hours? My own concern, based on your other threads, is that your main reason for moving to Australia seems to be the sunshine. I'm not at all sure that is a good enough reason considering the consequences you describe. How would you feel if, when you get to Australia, you discover that you don't like the other aspects of Australian life? Many Brits have that experience, because Australia isn't England with sunshine. The culture and attitudes are very different. How often have you visited and how long for? Yes Marisa, your concern is exactly my concern too! What if we can't settle and all the upset caused has been for nothing! I went to Australia when I was in the Airforce and the RAF volleyball team went over and we played the RAAF team. I loved every minute, but that was an out and out holiday (albeit we were classed as working!!! Yes I know!!!) but of course that experience amounts to nothing really. We have been talking about going out next august to do a work evaluation exercise. This is eating my brain alive!!!!!! Has anyone else had this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Do careful on your reasons. The outdoor lifestyle is one debated on here regularly. Some find it exists and some don't. But the weather, while certainly true we get more sunny days, is not perfect. I am looking out of my window and dark grey skies and listening to thunder as I write. Perth gets almost twice the rainfall of London. In summer the heat can be oppressive and many people just want to sit under the air con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 If you need to sell your business then you will just have to make the choice but there is no getting away from the fact that others will link your move to Australia for your own happiness with them suffering loss (of some kind). I had (and have) a lot of friends working for me but always knew I would be living overseas at some point so built up the business so it could run without me being there. When I moved out here I kept my business and just stay in touch by Skype and return once a year to check up on things. I will sell the business in the next few years but it wont be linked in peoples minds to me moving here - I am already working on ways to have the business ready for sale so the staff won't even notice i've gone. So if you don't need to sell the business, think about keeping it for a year or so and then sell - you may be surprised (like I was) that your staff rise to the challenge, revel in the opportunity and make more money then you would have done because they have something to prove! NWM We have thought about this too, the only problem we can see with this is my husband is the most experienced of the engineers and when they get a problematic repair, it is he who will finish the job and that he tells me is purely because of his experience and probably no fault of their own. So we feel the work may suffer, finding people who can do this work is a real headache because there simply isn't many out there who can pick up a soldering iron and repair circuit boards, it is all I.T and software based these days. So it would probably be hard to get another employee to fill in the gap. NWM could you please break it down on how you would sell the business without your staff knowing you had gone, could there be a possibility that the new owner would restructure and not keep the staff? If this was the case but you were made a decent offer what would you do? Sorry NWM I am really putting you on the spot here!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noworriesmate Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 We have thought about this too, the only problem we can see with this is my husband is the most experienced of the engineers and when they get a problematic repair, it is he who will finish the job and that he tells me is purely because of his experience and probably no fault of their own. So we feel the work may suffer, finding people who can do this work is a real headache because there simply isn't many out there who can pick up a soldering iron and repair circuit boards, it is all I.T and software based these days. So it would probably be hard to get another employee to fill in the gap. NWM could you please break it down on how you would sell the business without your staff knowing you had gone, could there be a possibility that the new owner would restructure and not keep the staff? If this was the case but you were made a decent offer what would you do? Sorry NWM I am really putting you on the spot here!! Well to be honest, it is very hard in the UK to lay off employees especially under TUPE (https://www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/overview). What I meant was that by delegating ALL of the functions I used to do I have slowly become redundant in my own business and when I eventually sell, the staff now won't miss me at all. I purposely began that process before I left, making someone else the MD and passing any questions people asked me on to him. Bit by bit, as he became more confident, I then got him to deal with the things I was still doing, like dealing with the bank and the accountants etc. Finally this month I have got him to open a new branch (actually he suggested it to me), but he is doing all the strategy, marketing, employing etc etc. I am still there to bounce ideas around but the business now revolves around him. So I am now having conversations with him about the exit strategy, I am expecting that one of our competitors will buy us out, however they would be daft not to keep him. As to the other staff who were friends - over the past 5 years, some have left and some are still there but I have pulled back from relating with them (about the business) and I don't believe there will be any ill will when I am out of the picture. NWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 He does the menial tasks such as filing and data inputting etc, but without a doubt someone else could do a much faster job, so I have would have to say yes it probably dies carry him. Yes Marisa, I have already thought that the new owners really don't have to commit to anything, I think that is just wishful thinking. Oh dear, I keep thinking that I must be a horrible person. :-( Of course you're not a horrible person! It sounds like you've done a lot for your family and maybe part of this Australian "dream" is just a wish to do something for yourself for a change... It's likely that the new owner wouldn't restructure immediately because he'll have enough on his plate, however once he's got his feet under the table there would be nothing to stop him restructuring to suit his own preference. if someone else could do your brother's job faster, then there is a high risk that a new owner wouldn't be as patient as you, and would eventually want to hire someone who would do more for the money. I assume employee protection laws are similar in the UK to Australia so he would be protected in theory, but in practice it wouldn't be hard to create a situation where he'd want to leave, if pressure was put on him to perform at a faster pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Yes Marisa, your concern is exactly my concern too! What if we can't settle and all the upset caused has been for nothing! I went to Australia when I was in the Airforce and the RAF volleyball team went over and we played the RAAF team. I loved every minute, but that was an out and out holiday (albeit we were classed as working!!! Yes I know!!!) but of course that experience amounts to nothing really. We have been talking about going out next august to do a work evaluation exercise. In that case, I would strongly advise not to do a thing until you've actually visited. And when I say visit, make sure you visit where you're planning to live. There's absolutely no point visiting Sydney if you're thinking of settling in Brisbane. Each city has its own distinct personality - people who love Sydney usually hate Perth, for instance! The other thing I'd say is - when you visit, don't succumb to the temptation to think, "we're going all that way, let's have a holiday as well". If you can visit for two weeks, spend two weeks researching. If you can visit for six weeks, spend six weeks researching. The longer you can spend in learning about your possible new home, the better your chances of making the right decision. Book a self-catering apartment not a hotel, and do the ordinary things like shopping in the supermarket. After all, if you do make the move then you'll have plenty of time to visit all those other places. Right now, you have a wonderful memory of a great holiday and that's really all you know about Australia. I'm sure the dream of that lovely sunny, carefree time keeps you going when you're working hard in your business, but it's probably a long way from the reality of what your life will be like in Oz. A longer visit will either convince you it's worth the move or it will puncture the dream. Until you've done that, there's not much point in agonizing about the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Why do you want to move? Surely not just because you had a lovely holiday there once years ago. Living somewhere is very different from going on holiday! Do you have a better offer there than the one you are currently living? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatsitallabout Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 What a tough decision you have! This is my option you never get over the guilt about taking your kids away from family, this really didn't help me settle for a while & I hated oz for a good 2 / 3 years . If you sell the business & the new owner didn't keep your family on your time in oz will not be an enjoyable one!! You would feel so guilty about what you did. Moving here is the biggest & hardest things you will ever do. If I could turn the clock back I wouldn't have come my kids really miss their grandparents & the guilt gets harder even after early 6 years don't get me wrong I enjoy living Here for now but I know it's not forever so I don't envy your decision xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddball Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I know someone on here has already mentioned it, but I also think going for the visa and activating it is a good idea. That way you have 5 years before you move there, and your dad will likely retire by then, and you can have awhile for your family to organise another arrangement for your brother. At least this way, you will have done it and know it's there, and it will buy you time. Alternatively, you will live with the 'what if?' for the rest of your lives. As much as I'm sure it makes you feel good knowing you're helping your family, the gnawing 'what if' could well overpower that and you could end up feeling resentful. I honestly wish you the best of luck. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapri Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 He does the menial tasks such as filing and data inputting etc, but without a doubt someone else could do a much faster job, so I have would have to say yes it probably dies carry him. Yes Marisa, I have already thought that the new owners really don't have to commit to anything, I think that is just wishful thinking. Oh dear, I keep thinking that I must be a horrible person. :-( You sound like a wonderful person to me! How lovely of you to have supported your family in this way I think you have a very hard decision to make and I don't envy you at all. Unfortunately, emigrating is a bit of a selfish thing to do and it is also a big gamble. I know lots of expats here and some have settled really well and others will always feel the draw of "home". Unfortunately, you don't know which camp you will fall into until you get here. I don't think you should feel guilty for following your dreams - but I have a feeling that you will feel guilty anyway! Best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapri Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Do careful on your reasons. The outdoor lifestyle is one debated on here regularly. Some find it exists and some don't. But the weather, while certainly true we get more sunny days, is not perfect. I am looking out of my window and dark grey skies and listening to thunder as I write. Perth gets almost twice the rainfall of London. In summer the heat can be oppressive and many people just want to sit under the air con. It really does depend on where you settle in Aus, and your weather preferences. We have storms here sometimes and winter nights feel cold. We have occasional grey days like today! But we have endless days of sunshine and to me, that is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I know you can't live your life for other people but unless you have a pretty good guarantee that your dad and brother will be looked after, I really think you will struggle over here if that doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I know someone on here has already mentioned it, but I also think going for the visa and activating it is a good idea. That way you have 5 years before you move there, and your dad will likely retire by then, and you can have awhile for your family to organise another arrangement for your brother. At least this way, you will have done it and know it's there, and it will buy you time. Alternatively, you will live with the 'what if?' for the rest of your lives. As much as I'm sure it makes you feel good knowing you're helping your family, the gnawing 'what if' could well overpower that and you could end up feeling resentful. I honestly wish you the best of luck. xx Thanks Oddball, I must admit I didn't realise the 5 years thing which does make things a little easier, which yes you are spot on, it gives everyone plenty of time and dad will have retired by then. If we do leave any later, our points would have dropped to far down to apply and that would be a shame. Thanks again. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Why do you want to move? Surely not just because you had a lovely holiday there once years ago. Living somewhere is very different from going on holiday! Do you have a better offer there than the one you are currently living? Hi Quoll, No, a holiday experience alone couldn't justify the decision we have to make. This is a seed of an idea, and if I can get over the moral obligations we feel to our employees and family, that's when the research will start. (obviously we will not say anything or cause upset to anyone until we have been out to Australia and thoroughly checked the work prospects and culture) I think we have become disappointed with what England is becoming, a small part of our business deals with the public, and the change in clientelle have dramatically altered, we used to love our customers, now 95% are very ganster like Eastern Europeans (always in gangs) bringing in stolen laptops / Tv's for us to repair whilst eyeing the joint. We never do them, however they are very intimidating. We have now considered closing our doors to the public and just focusing on our contract work which is a huge shame. I know I am letting myself open to the racist card, but it is really not like that. I am very aware that I shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush however, that is my experience and it is what I am experiencing on a daily basis and quite simply I don't like it! I don't feel comfortable with it and I don't like this change that Britain seems to have no control over. Please don't crucify me for that, it isn't a political statement or anything, just my person feelings and one of the reasons I would l consider leaving for. Ironic we would become migrants! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adele244 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 In that case, I would strongly advise not to do a thing until you've actually visited. And when I say visit, make sure you visit where you're planning to live. There's absolutely no point visiting Sydney if you're thinking of settling in Brisbane. Each city has its own distinct personality - people who love Sydney usually hate Perth, for instance! The other thing I'd say is - when you visit, don't succumb to the temptation to think, "we're going all that way, let's have a holiday as well". If you can visit for two weeks, spend two weeks researching. If you can visit for six weeks, spend six weeks researching. The longer you can spend in learning about your possible new home, the better your chances of making the right decision. Book a self-catering apartment not a hotel, and do the ordinary things like shopping in the supermarket. After all, if you do make the move then you'll have plenty of time to visit all those other places. Right now, you have a wonderful memory of a great holiday and that's really all you know about Australia. I'm sure the dream of that lovely sunny, carefree time keeps you going when you're working hard in your business, but it's probably a long way from the reality of what your life will be like in Oz. A longer visit will either convince you it's worth the move or it will puncture the dream. Until you've done that, there's not much point in agonizing about the decision. Thanks Marisa, that is excellent advice, I can totally imagine the temptation of using it as a part holiday part research. I'm sure if you hadn't pointed that out, I probably would have been guilty of that. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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