IMPORTANT READ for all couples about to emigrate with their children!!!

[Tina2]

It's a hugely vexed question and in theory works ok but in practice there are many kids for whom it renders a childhood of utter confusion unfortunately. Many of them don't know if they are Arthur or Martha and it has implications for school and social activities. I've dealt with quite a few over the years, where the parents thought they were doing the nice civilized sharing thing down to the nth minute but the kids were anxious, confused, unsettled and generally unhappy. They didn't know what was happening, couldn't predict things and were often embarrassed. Of course there were some kids who coped really well but it is naive to assume that every child will cope in the same way.

 

When talking to parents about their rationale for doing the week and week about thing it was interesting to hear their different reasons - mum's was usually the "I want them to have a good relationship with their dad" and dad's reason was usually "I'm not going to give her anything if I don't have to". Colour me cynical by all means but when you do it for long enough nothing surprises you any more! I can still remember the poor little kid who had day and day about with his uber PC, totally equal parents (worked for them) sobbing his heart out because he really had no idea where he was (literally and metaphorically). Ironically, the underlying parental reasoning for their decision was that he interfered less with their social lives that way although of course on the surface it was "we believe in shared parenting"

 

I dont think there is a one size fits all and when a relationship breaks down there are all sorts of stories told and grudges harboured so divining the truth really takes the judgment of a Solomon and unfortunately the Family Court often gets it WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! But it can only take on face value the information given to it and sometimes that comes best packaged in very expensive legal briefs which may appear valid but not be in the least bit so. My heart goes out to any family being torn apart I must say, but using the kids as pawns in the resultant aftermath is unconscionable.

THANK YOU QUOLL ! You are far better with words than I am.

[Tina2]

I think you are being even-handed and that you recognise that the mother or father (or both) could have chaotic lifestyles from time to time but you seem to be implying that the courts act as a surrogate parent monitoring closely the social life of both parents and assessing their new boyfriends/girlfriends for suitability or assessing things like amounts of TV screen time, diet etc but on what basis. There are plenty of children brought up by two parents with chaotic lifestyles so where does the controlling end? A child may not like a new step-parent but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with that person. Surely the courts can only make a decision based on the information available at the time. It is then up to the parents to parent their own children and the courts should only become involved if there is abuse because 'lifestyle' concerns are incredibly subjective.

I understand what you are saying but how do you define "abuse" sure the child ends up covered in bruses, or a broken leg questions will be asked but what about emotional abuse how do you prove that ? How do you help a child who comes home in tears asking if you are going away as now they have a new daddy or mummy ? You are not "allowed" to seek councilling for the child as the other parent has threatend court action if you do and they have the money to carry out the threat and you know the other parent can afford the best legal help which you cant. This really is a mine field , how you fix it I have no idea.

[Peach]

That is what I am trying to get it, the court does not look at lifestyle and how it may harm a child. Multipul, new partners that move in and the kids are then told this is you "new" mummy/daddy, and then comes the new aunt/uncle/grandparent, after 3-6 months that one goes and a new one arrives. This leave the kids scared and confused. What about changing diet almost over night when the japanese friend moves in ? Making Mid Primary kids have a sleep in the afternoon on weekends so dad and "friend" can have a "rest" and then keeping them up till after 10 to play video games with the parent ? just to name a few. Yes all these are not looked at and if raised are said to be "irrelivent. .

 

You can leave a child scared and confused without splitting up. Be that from hearing the enthusiastic noisy love making from loving parents, parents who are workaholics, parents who are alcoholics, or even parents who expect the child to fit around them. In fact as a parent I go as far to say that it is impossible to leave your kids with at least a little bit of psychological damage - it comes with the territory. Most don't end up with personality disorders as a result.

[Rachel Tilley]

Originally Posted by Lady Rainicorn The problem Rachel faced though Michaela was she was not allowed to stay in Australia as she was a dependent on her ex-partners visa - she would have happily stayed and wants her child to have a relationship with his dad but as a SAHM of a two year old was not allowed to stay in Australia with him and not allowed to take him back to the UK without her exes permission which he refused - heartbreaking

 

 

 

I don't believe this actually.

There is no way she would be forced to leave in this scenario.

 

All true, not one word of a lie. Sadly, the majority of people have the same naivety and think that such a thing couldn't happen in a first world country in this day and age.

 

If you don't qualify for a visa then you don't qualify for a visa. The people who work in DIAC don't have empathy or common sense, they work to the rules.

[soon to be aussies]

Thanks for posting that's something I was not aware of I have a son and another child on the way and will get to oz after our second child is born.

 

I was wondering would this still apply if my children have dual nationality, British and Aussie passports? would I be able to take them out of the country then?

 

Thanks!

 

Hi there,

I'm about to emigrate with my wonderful family, my husband Greg and my two children. We have always looked at it as an adventure and that if things didn't work out we could just return home. This I'm sure will still be the case but I wanted to share something with you all.

You never really think about the ' what ifs ' but I was made aware of an awful situation one lady ended up in and since then have found out that many more women have too, I'm sure some men also.

Emigrating is such a big move and for some partners it can lead to separation as well as many other reasons of course. In this awful instance if one partner wants to return home to the UK and the other doesn't did you know that that person CANNOT return to the UK with their children? It is against the law if the other partner doesn't agree. If you were to fly home with your children, even if they are British Born it is classed as child abduction and you will be ordered to return them to Australia!

After reading these stories we made the decision to get something written up with my lawyer as we both agreed it was important to write up our intentions and agreements before we left the UK, just incase.

The problem is you never know how someone can turn after a break up, even my husband agreed with that and although he will say now that he'd never stop me wanting to go home with the kids if we break up you just never know. He is Australian and so if we separated it would be unlikely he would want to return to the UK but this law applies even if you're all British, once you land your children are Australian Residents!

I have been in close contact with a lady who had this happen to her and with her kind help and my mum researching it a bit, my husband and I have a deed written up stating our intentions, what will happen to the children if we separate if I want to return to the UK. It also states that he will NOT take action under The Hague Convention Law, Child Abduction if I want to return home with them if things don't work out. This document cost £480, I think it's worth every penny as a security. I would strongly suggest people consider doing this before they leave. I have got 3 copies and my mum is keeping one here in the UK. It's not a nice thing to think about but it has happened to many and is a very sad ending to what should have been such an amazing experience. I'm not posting this to put a downer on people's dreams just sharing information I think is important to be aware of.

This post is for information not open to the those 'negative' posters who like to swoop in and be rude! I posted a reply on the thread about this subject a little while back giving some information about what my mother had read only to receive a reply from somebody stating that they felt my mother was interfering and that that my husband should have been mortified by the fact that I'd even considered this! It's posters like that that make me dislike this site! I have taken time to write this to share the information I have gained in the hope that it may help others so please be respectful. This is meant to be helpful. Thank you.

This is important information and information I'm very glad I was given to make me aware of this law that so many don't even know about. I hope this is helpful.

[Sammy1]

Thanks for posting that's something I was not aware of I have a son and another child on the way and will get to oz after our second child is born.

 

I was wondering would this still apply if my children have dual nationality, British and Aussie passports? would I be able to take them out of the country then?

 

Thanks!

 

The answer is no, unless your husband agreed or a court allowed it.

 

That is why it is very important to be aware of the pitfalls of moving to another country if the relationship was to break down and one parent wanted to move back to the country of origin. Lots of people have found themselves in this situation.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Sammy1

[CollegeGirl]

Originally Posted by Lady Rainicorn The problem Rachel faced though Michaela was she was not allowed to stay in Australia as she was a dependent on her ex-partners visa - she would have happily stayed and wants her child to have a relationship with his dad but as a SAHM of a two year old was not allowed to stay in Australia with him and not allowed to take him back to the UK without her exes permission which he refused - heartbreaking

 

 

 

 

 

All true, not one word of a lie. Sadly, the majority of people have the same naivety and think that such a thing couldn't happen in a first world country in this day and age.

 

If you don't qualify for a visa then you don't qualify for a visa. The people who work in DIAC don't have empathy or common sense, they work to the rules.

 

One of the compelling and compassionate circumstances DIBP list for grant of a PR Partner Visa after the breakdown of a relationship is there being a child of the relationship. There ARE provisions in place by which parents are allowed to get PR in order to remain in the country with their children even after their relationship has ended.

[Guest]

Originally Posted by Lady Rainicorn The problem Rachel faced though Michaela was she was not allowed to stay in Australia as she was a dependent on her ex-partners visa - she would have happily stayed and wants her child to have a relationship with his dad but as a SAHM of a two year old was not allowed to stay in Australia with him and not allowed to take him back to the UK without her exes permission which he refused - heartbreaking

 

 

 

 

 

All true, not one word of a lie. Sadly, the majority of people have the same naivety and think that such a thing couldn't happen in a first world country in this day and age.

 

If you don't qualify for a visa then you don't qualify for a visa. The people who work in DIAC don't have empathy or common sense, they work to the rules.

 

 

And parents don't even need to split up to be in this situation, a good friend of mine in Australia who is originally from Denmark has been married to a New Zealander for 21 years. They were living in Denmark when her first child was born and moved to Australia when he was very young and their second child who is now 11 was born there. As a New Zealander her husband can live and work in Australia but he is not a citizen, I don't know the precise details of her visa but essentially it is a 5 year renewable visa based on being married to a Kiwi resident in Australia. She has no route permanent residency at all although up unto last year her visa had been renewed routinely suddenly last year they decided not to renew it. She appealed but had she lost the appeal she faced having to leave her husband and children in Australia and returning to Denmark (in reality they would have probably moved too but there whole lives were in Australia). Her skills are on the SOL but not the CSOL and she was desperately appealing for sponsorship anywhere in Australia (I posted on here at the time). She now does have a further 5 year visa but the future is still uncertain.

[soon to be aussies]

The answer is no, unless your husband agreed or a court allowed it.

 

That is why it is very important to be aware of the pitfalls of moving to another country if the relationship was to break down and one parent wanted to move back to the country of origin. Lots of people have found themselves in this situation.

 

 

Thanks!

[Rachel Tilley]

One of the compelling and compassionate circumstances DIBP list for grant of a PR Partner Visa after the breakdown of a relationship is there being a child of the relationship. There ARE provisions in place by which parents are allowed to get PR in order to remain in the country with their children even after their relationship has ended.

 

PR visas maybe, but there was nothing for breakdown of relationships when all parties had temporary 457 visas. Whether this has changed since 2008 I don't know, but there was nothing for me back then. It went to Ministerial Intervention for the attention of Kevin Andrews at the time but the time it took meant the decision was made by Chris Evans and he said :no:

 

Following a lengthy document that was submitted with lots of evidence requesting that I should remain in Australia with my son so that he had both parents in one country, here is the very brief reply that I was sent:

 

I refer to your letter of July 2007 requesting that the former Minister for lmmigration and Citizenship, the Hon Kevin Andrews MP, consider exercising the public interest power under section 351 of the Migration Act 1958 (the Act) in your case. This request was referred to the current Minister for lmmigration and Citizenship, Senator Chris Evans for decision.

Under section 351 of the Act, the Minister may substitute for a decision of the

Migration Review Tribunal a decision which is more favourable to you if he thinks it is in the public interest to do so.

Senator Evans has personally considered the details of your case and he has decided that it would not be in the public interest to intervene. Senator Evans has therefore not exercised the power under section 351 of the Act.

 

Nice to know that Senator Evans didn't think a child having two parents in the same country was important after it was his country that instigated the Hague Convention to get us back there in the first place!

 

Two days later I was sent this:

 

Your last substantive visa was cancelled on * June 2007 and you departed

Australia on * July 2007 on a Bridging Visa E. As it was more than 28

days from the time your visa was cancelled till the time you departed on

the bridging visa a 3 year exclusion period (PIC 4014) applies to you from

the date you departed (* July 2007).

I will always maintain that Immigration and the Family Courts work in conflict with each other. By me not being able to return to Australia for 3 years meant I would struggle to comply with the Australian Family Court Order that said my son had to travel to Oz every year for 6 weeks to stay with his father. Fortunately, the ex's parents were able to afford the air fares and they took him several times until we felt he was old enough to travel on his own as an Unaccompanied Minor, which he did at 9 years old.

 

Perhaps I'd have had more luck with Kevin. Shame he left the post really.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Rachel Tilley

[Parley]

I'm not disagreeing with your explanation of what happened to you, but as CollegeGirl said, I'm sure that compassionate grounds would not force a mother out of the country while forcing her to leave her dependent child in Australia.

It is unthinkable that they would do that.

 

I have no proof but I can't imagine Australia doing such a thing.

Edited August 10, 2014 by parleycross

[Tina2]

No and it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to get approval via the family court to return will little or no hope of approval being given

[Quoll]

I'm not disagreeing with your explanation of what happened to you, but as CollegeGirl said, I'm sure that compassionate grounds would not force a mother out of the country while forcing her to leave her dependent child in Australia.

It is unthinkable that they would do that.

 

I have no proof but I can't imagine Australia doing such a thing.

 

There was a case within the past year where that happened - woman from somewhere in Asia IIRC but I have a feeling her child eventually went with her

[Parley]

Well then it didn't happen if the child went with her.

[Pumpkin]

I'm not disagreeing with your explanation of what happened to you, but as CollegeGirl said, I'm sure that compassionate grounds would not force a mother out of the country while forcing her to leave her dependent child in Australia.

It is unthinkable that they would do that.

 

I have no proof but I can't imagine Australia doing such a thing.

 

But they did... Rachel's case.

[thinker78]

There was a case within the past year where that happened - woman from somewhere in Asia IIRC but I have a feeling her child eventually went with her

 

Quoll is right- i followed this case- in which a mother was her on a prospective spouse visa, the relationship broke down and she had her visa cancelled. the child from the relationship was an aussie citizen as was the father. i suspect she was allowed to take the child (never saw the outcome- perhaps media silence) as there was such a big outcry about this case in the media initially- they will do it, and have done it.

[wrussell]

Be interesting to hear if this agreement is worth the paper it is written on when push comes to shove. What if one of the parties concerned changes their mind? A bit of a can of worms I think.

 

Precisely!

 

Hands up all those who have lodged Hague convention application, or more than one and the outcome.

[Tina2]

Another thing to be aware of is if you want to take the child to the UK ( or anyware O/S) if you have split you need the other partners approval and/or the family courts approval, and, if the partner that remained in Aus changes there mind they can go to the family court and have an order raised for the children to be immediately returned to Aus. The parent who took them on the holiday can remain in the UK or where ever just not the kids.

[Peach]

Another thing to be aware of is if you want to take the child to the UK ( or anyware O/S) if you have split you need the other partners approval and/or the family courts approval, and, if the partner that remained in Aus changes there mind they can go to the family court and have an order raised for the children to be immediately returned to Aus. The parent who took them on the holiday can remain in the UK or where ever just not the kids.

 

I would have thought that at the speed courts move the holiday would be over and the children back in Australia way before the case was heard.

[Tina2]

I would have thought that at the speed courts move the holiday would be over and the children back in Australia way before the case was heard.

No a recovery order can be issues within a very short period of time.

[Peach]

No a recovery order can be issues within a very short period of time.

 

can be, but are they?

 

 

 

• January 2007- mother and father separated in Italy

• 27 November 2008 - mother and father entered into consent orders in Italy for children to live with the mother and spend weekend overnight time with the father

• July 2010 - mother failed to return the children to Italy after a four week holiday in Australia

• 18 February 2011 - an application was made under the Hague Convention for the return of the children to Italy

• 16 May 2011 - the application for return of the children to Italy was heard by Justice Forrest

• 23 June 2011 - a decision was made by Justice Forrest for the children to be returned

• 5 August 2011 - an appeal was filed by the mother

• 5 September 2011 - the appeal was heard by the Full Court of the Family Court of Australia

• 9 March 2012 - the Full Court of the Family Court of Australia delivered their decision.