Oz Citizenship Dilemma

[lawlere]

Hi All

 

I've been a regular visitor to this site for the past 2.5 years but this is my first post.

 

My wife and I moved out to Oz from London on Permanent Residency visas in August 2011 shortly after we got married.

 

We spent six months in Brisbane and then moved to Sydney where we both found good jobs and lived in Coogee for six months before moving to Balmain for 14 months.

 

Our initial plan was just to try Oz out for six months but we kept extending our stay until we had been there the minimum two year period to quality for a resident return visa. We achieved this and my understanding now is that we can extend our visas until December 2020.

 

Last December after two years and three months we returned back to the UK as we always saw our long term future here as we both have elderly parents and property in Ireland and the UK.

 

I have to admit that during my first year in Oz I found it very had to settle but by the time we moved back I had got used to the way things worked and would have liked to stay the full four years to achieve citizenship although my wife was glad to move back.

 

At the time we moved back I checked the citizenship residency calculator and found that if we went back to Oz before the end of September 2014 we would still qualify for citizenship by the end of August 2015. At the time my wife agreed that this might be an option but is now adamant that she will not go back and has just got a good job here (I have been contracting and have struggled to get back to the same level I was on in the Oz public sector).

 

There are a lot of things I miss about Oz and Sydney now that we are back and I have found it very hard to readjust to the pace of life in London. Its been easier for my wife as she is from London and her parents live here. I am from Ireland and my Mum still lives there - although she is glad I am living closer to her she wants to see the best for us both and realises that Aussie citizenship would be a very valuable thing to have. I feel its a shame to cut off our long term options for the sake of spending another 11 months there especially after the investment of time to date.

 

I am seriously tempted to return on my own in September for 12 months in order to get citizenship but indecision is tearing me apart as I would feel very guilty about leaving my wife here for that period of time (we don't have any children). I have worked out that I would still be able to come home for 3 weeks during the 11 month period and I have a good chance of getting work with my previous employer.

 

My friends are 50:50 eg 50% say I would be insane if I don't go and the other 50% say I should just let it go and settle down here or in Ireland.

 

I know that any advice will be totally subjective depending on the perspective of the person providing the advice but I just need to share my dilemma with people who can empathise and who may have been in a similar place before.

 

I know there are some people who will say I am being selfish and perhaps I am, but I think I am being selfish for the right reasons as I believe I will have regrets for the rest of my life if I let the September deadline slip by.

[Rachel Tilley]

This is a dilemma and regardless of all the advice you are given you will end up doing what you feel is right for you. I don't know how old you both are, but sometimes, people want different things in life and end up going their separate ways to achieve them.

 

From (what I consider) a sensible point of view and the cheapest way to do it, is for you to return for the 12 months alone to achieve Citizenship as the most viable option, leaving your wife here in her new job and close to her family where she wants to be. If ever you decided to move back as a couple in the future then it will be easier for her to get a visa as the wife of an Aussie Citizen than starting all over again. This option would depend on the trust you have in each other and how you would manage living apart from one another for that period of time. If the trust isn't there, or there are insecurities that one of you may meet someone else in the other's absence this could just eat away at you though. However, many couples survive long distance relationships, especially those who are married to men/women in the armed forces.

 

If you really can't settle in the UK and let this opportunity pass then you may end up resenting your wife years down the line, and if she feels forced to give up her new job and family so you can fulfil your dream then she may end up resenting you. I do feel that the compromise would be you returning alone for 12 months and then returning to the UK... but who knows what could happen in that 12 months?

 

My ex partner had a long term dream to live in Australia and I didn't. We did have a child, but his dream was so strong that he did say he'd go with or without me. Against my better judgement I did go with him, but it didn't work out for us and we did split up. He is still in Oz and I'm back in the UK. Our relationship was not strong enough to survive 'the dream' but perhaps yours is strong enough to stand 12 months apart and then re-assess what country you want to live in before you have children (if you plan to have any of course).

[lawlere]

Hi Rachael

 

That just about sums up how I feel - you are right - I can ask 100 people and I still have to make the decision myself.

 

Eamonn

[StevenLozza]

As said before the decision is entirely up to you.

 

My advice would be, get off this forum, get out with the wife for a nice meal so you have complete 1 on 1 attention and time to talk. And tell her what you want to do with your life and approach the idea of moving away for the 12 months to obtain the citizenship for the better of both your futures. Obviously you are going to reiterate that she is your life but you feel this is an opportunity to good to let slip away? And when you gain your citizenship it in away gives you both free passage to OZ (obvs with ur wife obtaining PR Visa 100)

 

If it was me in this position (I have 3 kids) I would do the 12 months as hard as it would be to leave my family it opens massive doors for my children. As it'll open doors for maybe your potential children through citizenship of decent.

[Gbye grey sky]

Are you sure she would not welcome this door being closed?

 

You might qualify for citizenship in August 2015 but, and I stand to be corrected, it may be that you have to wait a while for the grant. Hopefully someone who knows the citizenship application process can guide you more but you may have to be there considerably longer than 11 months anyway.

 

If you return one day with citizenship this in itself could be a source of future conflict.

[Quoll]

You aren't cutting off any options until any RRV runs out so, really you have until 2020 to make a decision. An Aus passport isn't anything wonderful given that you already hold EU passports. So, it would take a smidgen longer to get citizenship but if you both wanted it at that stage it would still be do-able and you don't really lose anything in the process.

 

GBGS may well be right, your wife may be glad not to have the constant dilemma hanging over her and just be glad to draw a line.

 

No right/wrong answer really and not really going to enhance your life or your kids' down the track

[StevenLozza]

How long after you leave OZ as PR can you apply for a RRV?

[lawlere]

How long after you leave OZ as PR can you apply for a RRV?

 

Our initial 175 skilled visa was granted in Dec 2010 and we had until Dec 2015 to enter Oz.

 

My understanding is that as we resided in Oz for over two years between Aug 2011 and Nov 2013 we can apply for a 5 year RRV in Dec 2015.

 

Furthermore my understanding is that we would need to spend at least two years in Oz between 2015 and 2020 to get another RRV to cover the period from 2020 to 2025.

[Guest]

Just to let you know we qualified for citizenship end of November 2013 and it took until June 2014 to actually get it, and then cannot leave until you have an Australian passport so you would be talking nearer 18 months really.

 

You apply, get invited for an interview and citizenship test and then you have to wait for the next available citizenship test, how frequent they are and how far ahead they are booked up depends entirely on the council or shire you live in.

 

Unless this is something your wife equally sees as a good plan I wouldn't even consider it, 18 months apart is a long time it could destroy your marriage and for what?

[Petals]

You only have one life and no-one knows how long it will be, sometimes we have to just look after number 1 and do what we want. So if you want citizenship go for it. You may not return to Aus until much later but at least you can if you have citizenship.

[Marisawright]

 

At the time we moved back I checked the citizenship residency calculator and found that if we went back to Oz before the end of September 2014 we would still qualify for citizenship by the end of August 2015. At the time my wife agreed that this might be an option but is now adamant that she will not go back and has just got a good job here (I have been contracting and have struggled to get back to the same level I was on in the Oz public sector).

 

 

I am seriously tempted to return on my own in September for 12 months in order to get citizenship but indecision is tearing me apart as I would feel very guilty about leaving my wife here for that period of time (we don't have any children). I have worked out that I would still be able to come home for 3 weeks during the 11 month period and I have a good chance of getting work with my previous employer.

.

 

My gut feeling says go for it. If you let it go by, there's a danger you will eventually resent your wife for preventing you - and resentment is one of the leading causes of marriage breakup. Many couples have to endure long separations - people in the forces, for instance - and long-distance relationships are much easier to manage these days, especially if you're able to get back for a couple of short visits in the time.

 

These days, life changes at a dizzying pace. You never, ever know what life is going to throw at you and it's very wise to keep all your options open, even if it doesn't seem likely you'll be able to use those options any time soon. Your citizenship could be useful for your children eventually, if nothing else.

[Penelope Pitstop]

I took the citizenship test as soon as I was eligible - it then took 5 months more before I had the ceremony and actually got citizenship.

[jasepom]

Yeah get citizenship if you can its worth it and gives you options.

[Sandyp]

You wrote that you always saw your long term future in the UK and Ireland. I think you have your answer already

[Rachel Tilley]

You wrote that you always saw your long term future in the UK and Ireland. I think you have your answer already

 

This may end up a case of wanting what you haven't got. If the poster obtains Australian Citizenship he and his wife may live a long and happy marriage in the UK or Ireland with the satisfaction that he could live in Australia if he really wanted to. If he doesn't get his Citizenship then he'll probably live unhappily in the UK or Ireland forever wishing that he could have lived in Australia but can't! I liken it to the bits and pieces I have up in the loft that I will never get rid of because they may come in useful one day, but in reality will never get used... but it's sort of comforting knowing that they're there. Hope that makes sense!

[VERYSTORMY]

I don't see any point if you think your future isn't here.

[Bolt4]

This may end up a case of wanting what you haven't got. If the poster obtains Australian Citizenship he and his wife may live a long and happy marriage in the UK or Ireland with the satisfaction that he could live in Australia if he really wanted to. If he doesn't get his Citizenship then he'll probably live unhappily in the UK or Ireland forever wishing that he could have lived in Australia but can't! I liken it to the bits and pieces I have up in the loft that I will never get rid of because they may come in useful one day, but in reality will never get used... but it's sort of comforting knowing that they're there. Hope that makes sense!

You are absolutely spot on! Not only does it make sense, I'm going through the same thing myself at the moment, hanging on for citizenship and waiting for eldest to finish uni, then going back for a new adventure. I don't think I could fully throw myself into settlingl inproperly knowing that that's it now, no going back if we don't like it. Knowing we can go back to Aus, will hopefully help me to not sweat the Small stuff when back home iykwim!!

[lawlere]

Regarding the wait of up to six months for the citizenship ceremony, I agree that this adds a great deal of additional uncertainty into the mix as I can't make exact plan re my date of return. I've researched that it's possible to arrange a private ceremony if you are in a hurry but you have to have a very good excuse so no guarantees there. The other option would be to do the whole application process through the immigration lawyer who I originally used to get the visa. The idea behind this is that in theory if I went home after submitting the application and doing the test she could notify me when the ceremony was going to take place. This of course depends on how much notice is provided by the local council in question and whether she would be notified by them or whether they would insist on writing to me directly.

[Gbye grey sky]

Have you discussed this plan with your wife yet or are you establishing all the potential implications before having the conversation?

[lawlere]

Have you discussed this plan with your wife yet or are you establishing all the potential implications before having the conversation?

Any time I bring up the subject my wife gets very upset. She can't see the point whereas I totally can. I've tried to sit down and rationally put a plan together and map everything out but emotions keep getting in the way. At times she's hinted she's accepting of the idea and at other times the opposite. Basically it's been an ongoing debate for at least the last 4 months. The usual challenge from her is "why don't you book your ticket?" But I don't want to do this unless we are in full agreement. I can see her point of view and I just wish she could see mine but she basically keeps telling me I'm mad! It's very stressful and I'm concerned that as an earlier poster pointed out if I don't go it will cause me to resent my wife in time to come. Of course if I do go it could well cause her to resent me so maybe it's a no win situation.

[Gbye grey sky]

Any time I bring up the subject my wife gets very upset. She can't see the point whereas I totally can. I've tried to sit down and rationally put a plan together and map everything out but emotions keep getting in the way. At times she's hinted she's accepting of the idea and at other times the opposite. Basically it's been an ongoing debate for at least the last 4 months. The usual challenge from her is "why don't you book your ticket?" But I don't want to do this unless we are in full agreement. I can see her point of view and I just wish she could see mine but she basically keeps telling me I'm mad! It's very stressful and I'm concerned that as an earlier poster pointed out if I don't go it will cause me to resent my wife in time to come. Of course if I do go it could well cause her to resent me so maybe it's a no win situation.

 

I suspected this was the case. I fear unless you are willing to let this go then I can see this leading to a break up.

[silencio]

If I were you I would never rate Australia over a healthy relationship. For me it's more important to be with my partner, no matter in which country we live. If I put myself in your shoes, I could never live without my partner and soul mate but would live outside of Australia with a heavy heart. But only you know when you ask yourself if this is worth the risk of losing your spouse.

 

I would recommend don't put yourself under this kind of enormous pressure, otherwise it ends in a break up with 2 unhappy people sitting alone separated from each other who might never be separate when the Australia issue haven't arise. That's not worth the 'dream'.

It's still time till 2020 for the ultimate decision for or against Australia, 2 years towards a prosperous citizenship application are served and hopefully you're young enough in 2019-2020 to make a 2nd move.

[MovingtoTasmania]

I'm just wondering if the relationship is okay other than this issue of Australia. If you really really want this, do you want it more than you want your wife? Does she want the UK more than she wants you? You originally left Australia for a reason, are these reasons still valid? I don't envy you this decision.

[weaver]

You may think I'm mad suggesting this, but why don't you both see a guidance counsellor so that you can talk the issues out both separately and together without too many emotions getting in the way. It may help you both to decide what you really want, both now and long term

[Aunt Agatha]

If I was in your situation, my question would be: "Would I ever move to Australia long-term/permanently without my partner?" If the answer is no, then I wouldn't bother with citizenship. If the answer is yes, then I'd do the year back in Australia and go for it.

 

Your wife seems to have been very clear about not wanting to return to live in Australia and while I acknowledge things can change, I think we sometimes use that possibility of change as an excuse to not face the facts in front of us - which in this case are that your DW has no intention of living in Aus again. If you really do think you'd consider living here (in Aus) without her then you shouldn't feel ashamed about that, lots of couples find they want different things and have to split to achieve them. Where there are no children involved I think it's okay to be "selfish" to some extent.

 

All that said, you have said that you feel your long term future is in the UK or Ireland so I wonder if it's just the fact that you can get citizenship that makes you want it. If it was very difficult or very expensive to achieve would you pull out all the stops to get it?