457 holders to pay education fees in WA

[VERYSTORMY]

So what is the alternative. Charge a bond to 457 that is held in case their parents do not pay enough tax to cover their kids education before they leave?

 

Back on thread,

 

I think the govt etc doing this to 457 holders is appalling. I also think it is a mistake long term.

 

i do think the 457 visa did get abused, but the solution was in enforcement of the visa rules (only to be used as last resortbetc), not punishment of the visa holders.

[HappyHeart]

Why does there need to be an alternative...it was ok for 457 holders to use the state system before?

[Doc 53]

So what is the alternative. Charge a bond to 457 that is held in case their parents do not pay enough tax to cover their kids education before they leave?

 

The answer is to not charge for services that they have been taxed for. If the 457 is not fit for purpose end it. Do not punish people who already have them by changing rules, vindictively.

[HappyHeart]

Thats a really good answer doc53. I agree

[Quoll]

So do you only know the posh rich ones?

 

I have been here 4 years and know lots of Aussies and not one has their kids in Private Education!

 

Close to 50% of Canberra kids go private and all but a handful of the teachers I worked with (us included) had our kids in private education. A quick think of who did and who didn't seemed to be that the most strident AEU members were more likely to keep them in public schools but even some of them I know went private for HS. A couple of yrs ago there were more kids in the private HS system than the gov system. Haven't kept up with it since we left.

[northernbird]

Sorry mate, I work in an industry where I am lucky enough to see a massive cross section. Add to that the fact we spent aaaagggggesssssss looking for schools and I feel we are equipped to comment.

 

Answer this. Why does every single Aussie I know put/are looking to put there kids in private education? And I really do mean every Aussie I know.

 

The only people I see not debating it are us immigrants!

 

You can have your opinion. I can have mine. Mine is this. The Aussy education system is woeful, needlessly so. The system here school for school is not as good as the UK. I have not formed this view from Hersey but com observations. It will taken a lot of convincing for me to change this opinion.

 

I am all brave on here, what with it being the Internet and all. I would not dream of trying to explain any of this to an Australian, they are immensely proud, sometimes to their detriment.

 

i recently had to laugh at my australian peers. They were all really bitching and chaffing about the recent run of Aussy defeats, lions, etc. Not one of them seemed to make the link between sport for kids being so expensive and the downturn in Ozzy sporting prowess. You know the kids in schol here are lucky to do one hour a week in sport and pay for every after school sport. This includes football. Kids even pay for swimming lessons in school pools!!

 

Oh and NPLAN (school league results for education) is fiddled, openly. All the duffers get taken on day trips the day of the test. Very few schools are honest with this (only one I know is Varsity Lakes) on the Gold Coast where all students take the tests.

 

Sorry if this offends, it really is the opinion I have formed.

 

Regards

 

you can't comment on the entire Australian education system anymore than anyone else can. You can comment on the schools you have been to in the small area you live in. I know plenty of Australians who send their kids to state schools and they aren't all the bare foot, holden driving variety. I also worked in a primary school for 3 years and all children took the NAPLAN tests unless their parents withdrew them.

 

You are indeed entitled to your opinion and I have no desire to change it just to inform you that your experiences are just that, YOURS and are not indicative of how it is all over Australia.

[Quoll]

It would seem that the best solution would be for temp visa holders to ho to their employers and negotiate to have school fees covered by an increase in their wages or for their employers to pay Education directly.

 

If I were a temp visa holder in Qld or Vic especially at this moment I would be very worried. No telling, too, if the Catholic system or other private schools will charge international fees - at the moment they don't in NSW/ACT but if they aren't getting funded as they would for a permanent kid they may well have to reevaluate. Start talking to employers now I reckon!

[Doc 53]

you can't comment on the entire Australian education system anymore than anyone else can. You can comment on the schools you have been to in the small area you live in. I know plenty of Australians who send their kids to state schools and they aren't all the bare foot, holden driving variety. I also worked in a primary school for 3 years and all children took the NAPLAN tests unless their parents withdrew them.

 

You are indeed entitled to your opinion and I have no desire to change it just to inform you that your experiences are just that, YOURS and are not indicative of how it is all over Australia.

 

Read my posts.

 

where did I say the kids were ferrel? I did not.

 

where did I say the standard of teaching I had seen was poor? I did lots. The private schools (here in qld at least), on the whole out perform state.

I stand by the NAPLAN statement. Some schools send all kids (I know of one), a lot don't.

 

i have my opinion. Am I happy that I feel I need to send my kid private? No, I am furious. I will however not take a chance with my child's education.

[MovingtoTasmania]

Having read through this thread, it amazes me that so many people are quick to knock the education system in Australia as "inferior" and yet, still choose to stay in the country. If it's so bad there that you HAVE to pay for private education, why don't you move back to the UK? I am not saying this to cause an argument or anything but I am genuinely curious. I say the same to some of the older generation who are friends of my family, when they talk about "back home" and how UK society is declining. If it was so fricking good "back home", why stay? I for one, don't mind chipping in for a one way ticket for anyone who finds a country so repulsive and second class.

 

If the schooling is so bad that you dare not take the risk of sending your children to state school, why on earth are you taking such a chance with their education? Surely you would be far better to swap Australia for the UK until such time as your children leave full time education and you can live happily with no qualms whatsoever about having done your very best to secure the best possible future for your children. Not to mention saving bundles of money in to the bargain.

 

PS I just want to say that this is called the Poms in Oz forum so I make the assumption that the majority of the posters are British and have been educated in the UK. Considering that there is a spell checker available for people to double check prior to posting, I am astonished at the lack of spelling skills and grammatical skills exhibited by some people, not just on this thread but on all of them and yet, the same people say that Australian schools are sub-standard. My goodness, pot calling kettle.............

Edited August 11, 2013 by MovingtoTasmania
typo

[Doc 53]

MTT,

 

I do not wantnto go too far off topic again. the reason I am in Australia is that I can offer my family a better way of life here.

 

That does not mean I have o accept all the negative points if it is in my power to effect change. Why would anyone?

 

I have a good standard of life here with my family, however I have made choices for my child also.

 

I need to prepare her for if she wants to work or study abroad. My choice.

[Xenon4017]

I wonder what the "threads" opinion is of two points:

 

1) That the true cost per child is about 12k. So, the state is still supporting 457 children to quite an extent.

 

2) As PR we tend to regard ourselves as citizens without the voting rights. But there's the rub. If policy were to be changed to make us pay too, would we have any cause for complaint? We'd certainly have no recourse for protest.

[Doc 53]

I wonder what the "threads" opinion is of two points:

 

1) That the true cost per child is about 12k. So, the state is still supporting 457 children to quite an extent.

 

2) As PR we tend to regard ourselves as citizens without the voting rights. But there's the rub. If policy were to be changed to make us pay too, would we have any cause for complaint? We'd certainly have no recourse for protest.

 

People have cause for complaint because agreements that affect people's commitments are being changed retrospectively for a cheap political point. It is unfair in every sense.

 

i think it will also affect Oz badly for years to come.

[MovingtoTasmania]

MTT,

 

I do not wantnto go too far off topic again. the reason I am in Australia is that I can offer my family a better way of life here.

 

That does not mean I have o accept all the negative points if it is in my power to effect change. Why would anyone?

 

I have a good standard of life here with my family, however I have made choices for my child also.

 

I need to prepare her for if she wants to work or study abroad. My choice.

 

I would have thought that the substandard education would not be something that is better for your child and you say that you have a higher standard of living but at what cost? I read in your posts, someone who is very angry about the situation that they are in and I still feel that perhaps, for the sake of your child, you should move to somewhere where the education is of a higher standard as in all honesty, a large part of a child's life is education and if you fail her in that area, then you have failed. This is only my opinion but what I will tell you is this. My son got a full scholarship to one of the best schools in the UK and I refused to send him. He has an IQ that puts him the in top 1% worldwide. I sent him to the local state school that offered a good languages programme. My whole family were dismayed and shocked, when in the September he started that school, it was put under special measures as it was a "failing" school. The whole five years that he was there, the school was under special measures. Apparently, I should have felt guilty for denying him the opportunity to go to this public school and excel. I didn't. A child that can excel at public school, can excel at any school. He left that school with 13 A*'s at GCSE and took his mathematics GCSE a year early and got an A* plus completed an A level in one year and got an A. Do I feel guilty about denying him the treat of going to public school? No, he got a good education, is a well rounded, well mannered kid, well, young man and at the end of the day, an A* is an A*.

[Doc 53]

I would have thought that the substandard education would not be something that is better for your child and you say that you have a higher standard of living but at what cost? I read in your posts, someone who is very angry about the situation that they are in and I still feel that perhaps, for the sake of your child, you should move to somewhere where the education is of a higher standard as in all honesty, a large part of a child's life is education and if you fail her in that area, then you have failed. This is only my opinion but what I will tell you is this. My son got a full scholarship to one of the best schools in the UK and I refused to send him. He has an IQ that puts him the in top 1% worldwide. I sent him to the local state school that offered a good languages programme. My whole family were dismayed and shocked, when in the September he started that school, it was put under special measures as it was a "failing" school. The whole five years that he was there, the school was under special measures. Apparently, I should have felt guilty for denying him the opportunity to go to this public school and excel. I didn't. A child that can excel at public school, can excel at any school. He left that school with 13 A*'s at GCSE and took his mathematics GCSE a year early and got an A* plus completed an A level in one year and got an A. Do I feel guilty about denying him the treat of going to public school? No, he got a good education, is a well rounded, well mannered kid, well, young man and at the end of the day, an A* is an A*.

 

Right,

 

To recap:

- So you were hppy with the local state, so you sent him there. Right got that, this is what I would do if I were happy with one of the local schools.

- So education is really important. Right got that, it is what we are talking about.

 

Sounds like we agree on a lot. Quite why you have such a bee in your bonnet is beyond me. I am entitled to my opinion.

[Skani]

I heard a phrase recently "you cannot polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter". The Australian education system is like the turd, sans glitter. It is awful, truly awful, and I mean at all levels.

 

So how much more awful for the UK which ranked considerably lower than Australia in the OECD World education rankings of 65 countries. :shocked:

In reading maths and science the UK ranked 25th, 28th and 16th respectively,

Australia 6th, 9th and 7th.

[MovingtoTasmania]

Right,

 

To recap:

- So you were hppy with the local state, so you sent him there. Right got that, this is what I would do if I were happy with one of the local schools.

- So education is really important. Right got that, it is what we are talking about.

 

Sounds like we agree on a lot. Quite why you have such a bee in your bonnet is beyond me. I am entitled to my opinion.

 

I don't wear bonnets. I am not disagreeing with your stance on education, I am merely curious as to why you subject your child to a second rate education but then say that you are giving said child a better quality of life. By the way, I don't feel that the education in Australia is second rate, this is merely the inference that your posts put on the Australian education system.

 

And actually it wasn't really a local state school that he went too, it took him nearly two hours on the bus. I was proving a point really to everyone who said that I was failing him by refusing to send him to this other fantastic school lol. I do feel that you missed the point of why I told you this though. I was pointing out that a child that will do well, will do well regardless of whether you throw money at their education or not. I personally feel that it is to a child's detriment to put them through a rigorous education system if they can't cope with the demands made on them. Life is about balance. However, I don't know your child but you seem to be very angry. Lavender drops on your pillow will aid sleep and help you to relax xx

Edited August 11, 2013 by MovingtoTasmania
Typo

[Doc 53]

So how much more awful for the UK which ranked considerably lower than Australia in the OECD World education rankings of 65 countries. :shocked:

In reading maths and science the UK ranked 25th, 28th and 16th respectively,

Australia 6th, 9th and 7th.

 

Hmmmm,

 

check PILS and TIMSS, UK is ahead there, Oz performed bad enough here that people are concerned.

 

Anyhow, my observations are based on what I have seen locally, not global studies.

 

As I said, my choice.

 

look I recant everything I say. Oz, has no problems, the schools are performing the best anywhere in the world and moving to Oz will be a panacea for all life's ills. The polies are great, focusing on all the main issues at hand and the revenue from the mining boom has been wisely invested.

 

the country is a manufacturing powerhouse, unemployment is at zero, the country is awash with Intellectual property, crime is lower than rural Berkshire and bikies are really nice people. Oh and they have no immigration problems whatsoever.

 

There that better?

 

i have a better life here. It does not mean the country is perfect. It does not mean all people will have ac better life here.

[MovingtoTasmania]

Hmmmm,

 

check PILS and TIMSS, UK is ahead there, Oz performed bad enough here that people are concerned.

 

Anyhow, my observations are based on what I have seen locally, not global studies.

 

As I said, my choice.

 

look I recant everything I say. Oz, has no problems, the schools are performing the best anywhere in the world and moving to Oz will be a panacea for all life's ills. The polies are great, focusing on all the main issues at hand and the revenue from the mining boom has been wisely invested.

 

the country is a manufacturing powerhouse, unemployment is at zero, the country is awash with Intellectual property, crime is lower than rural Berkshire and bikies are really nice people. Oh and they have no immigration problems whatsoever.

 

There that better?

 

i have a better life here. It does not mean the country is perfect. It does not mean all people will have ac better life here.

 

Doc, you need to seriously kick back and relax. You sound like you have serious anger issues but I'm pretty certain (well 99%) that you're not really like this in real life. Golly, it's only an internet forum. I wasn't picking on you sweetheart, I was just merely curious and I didn't realise it would make you so grrrrr or I wouldn't have posted. You have your perspective and others have theirs and some of the people on the forum do take things a bit personally but others (like myself) are just genuinely curious about why people make the choices they do and then afterwards sound like they have regrets. I think it's very hard to try and sound relaxed in a post but you do sound a bit tense xx

[Doc 53]

Doc, you need to seriously kick back and relax. You sound like you have serious anger issues but I'm pretty certain (well 99%) that you're not really like this in real life. Golly, it's only an internet forum. I wasn't picking on you sweetheart, I was just merely curious and I didn't realise it would make you so grrrrr or I wouldn't have posted. You have your perspective and others have theirs and some of the people on the forum do take things a bit personally but others (like myself) are just genuinely curious about why people make the choices they do and then afterwards sound like they have regrets. I think it's very hard to try and sound relaxed in a post but you do sound a bit tense xx

 

Actually TTT,

 

i am quite relaxed. This due mainly to making informed choices.

 

i will say again. On balance Oz is better for my family. It is however, as with all countries not perfect.

 

why defend what needs change?

[Doc 53]

Forgot to add,

 

reason I am a bit miffed about these charges for education being applied retrospectively to 457 visa holds is that they will never have seen it coming. It took control from them that they had befor.

[Sammy1]

Forgot to add,

 

reason I am a bit miffed about these charges for education being applied retrospectively to 457 visa holds is that they will never have seen it coming. It took control from them that they had befor.

 

That is actually one thing that I will agree with you upon ( excuse me whilst I sit down). 457's that are already here should be exempt, whereas new applicants will be made aware of the new charges and thus can make an informed decision on working here.

[Doc 53]

That is actually one thing that I will agree with you upon ( excuse me whilst I sit down). 457's that are already here should be exempt, whereas new applicants will be made aware of the new charges and thus can make an informed decision on working here.

 

I actually thought we agreed on a few things.

 

i will be frank here, I think this cheap political shot will be abused by large employers. They will be able to use the excuse of fewer professional 457 visa holders as an excuse to off shore work (you would be amazed at how many projects are now designed in Malaysia, Vietnam etc, even government jobs) or fly workers in en masse (ala Reinhardt).

 

i really think this move will screw over the small man in may ways, from the 457's, to the Aussie job markethaving work taken away wholesale.

[starlight7]

I think it is right to charge fees but not retrospectively. That is just plain nasty.

[NickyNook]

I think it is right to charge fees but not retrospectively. That is just plain nasty.

 

Does anyone know if they will be charged retrospectively?

 

I haven't seen or heard anything official in that regard. If anyone has a link it would be good to see it.

 

It could be that everyone is running around like headless chooks for no reason at all. :confused:

[flag of convenience]

Does anyone know if they will be charged retrospectively?

 

I haven't seen or heard anything official in that regard. If anyone has a link it would be good to see it.

 

It could be that everyone is running around like headless chooks for no reason at all. :confused:

 

 

 

I am awaiting confirmation on this matter. It is not usual policy to do as is being suggested.