colinmaclec Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 So its ok for banks and governments to not pay back their debts but individuals are as bad as criminals if they don't? Or they can print money when they want and devalue peoples property and savings to line their own pockets? That kinda sums up who the real criminals are dosen't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 So its ok for banks and governments to not pay back their debts but individuals are as bad as criminals if they don't? Or they can print money when they want and devalue peoples property and savings to line their own pockets? That kinda sums up who the real criminals are dosen't it? Yep, just as bad as each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest51810 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 It must be great being as perfect as some of the people on here. Walk in someone elses shoes before you judge so quickly. I agree that they should pay as much as they possibly can for a clean slate but all the stuff about being compared as a theif is a bit extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 It must be great being as perfect as some of the people on here. Walk in someone elses shoes before you judge so quickly. I agree that they should pay as much as they possibly can for a clean slate but all the stuff about being compared as a theif is a bit extreme. Well Stacey if you are given money and do not give that money back what is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaclec Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 2 wrongs don't make a right i agree. But to blame the people who are suffering as a result of some rich people gambling with peoples investment's and life savings is naive. Gotta wonder why the top 1% got richer as the majority of hard working people have suffered for the last 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andy Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I think you will probably find that non repayment of debt will happen more and more now as people struggle to pay for life's must's such as food, fuel etc and take out things such as pay day loan's, top up mortgages and whatever else to get by and then perhaps see moving abroad as a way out, some of course will borrow money recklessly with no intention of paying it back but some maybe will have done it out of desperation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaclec Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Well there are legal ways of doing that, companies and governments do it all the time. they declare bankruptcy! And they cant be prosecuted for it. One day when you grow up and go out into the big bad world you will learn more about such adult subjects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joys of Oz Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 You borrow money for all sorts of things, mortgage, car, holiday etc etc, you know you have to pay it back when you take the loan out, burying your head in the sand and going la la la la la, is a bit sad init, IMO leaving the country owing people money is wrong...very wrong. Hi PB do you have personal experience on being the this position??? Because IMO, unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of someone who say.......... has had to pick between feeding you kids and keeping a roof over their heads or paying off their debts, then you really can't judge. I'm sure you, social services and the rest of the world would have something to say if a child goes hungry or is neglected because someone felt that paying their debts was more important. If you can't get work in the uk (cos there aren't any) but can in oz with a fresh start, clean slate and are able to provide for your family, live a good life, why not start again. Miss B sister is hardly a serial rack up debt and run away from it serial offender here. If she was I'd be right there with you. Sounds like she's paid her way all the way until through no fault of her own, life has thrown a spanner in the works. So no need to be so harsh and at a risk of pi**ing you off, wind your neck in! To the original poster, good luck to you, my understanding is they can't follow you because you took out the the commitment governed by uk laws not Ozzie ones. And you've not broken an Ozzie agreement. Its not my place to judge anyone on this forum, if I had a choice, I would pay my debts, but I understand that sometimes, it's just not possible and we all need a second chance in life. Best of luck JoZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graemsay Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 House prices had a long run up from the late nineties, and rose at above inflation rates for most of this time. This was true in Ireland, the UK and Australia. The Southeast of England was considered 20% overpriced in 2002 or 2003, and Mervyn King warned of a property bubble at about that time. Don't believe me, take a look at this article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2002/nov/20/housingmarket.houseprices Or this piece from the Economist in 2003, which mentions a number of countries worldwide. http://www.economist.com/node/1794873 MissusB, I feel sympathy for your sister, but ultimately she made a bad financial or investment decision. But saying that she should run away from her debts, and feel no guilt, is disingenuous. That said, it sounds like the Irish government has initiated a mortgage forgiveness programme, and that is probably her best way out. Oh, and I've spent most of the last four years way down on what I was in 2008. This year my income so far hasn't covered my rent. I disagree with Colinmaclec that is was all the bankers' fault. Rather the whole of society was complicit, and took advantage of cheap and easy credit. And no-one complained about them when property prices were doubling or tripling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 You borrow money for all sorts of things, mortgage, car, holiday etc etc, you know you have to pay it back when you take the loan out, burying your head in the sand and going la la la la la, is a bit sad init, IMO leaving the country owing people money is wrong...very wrong. Almost everyone will get a mortgage at some point. Almost no one can afford to buy a house outright. If you can, with your Fireman Sam wages, then fair play to you! But most of us have to borrow to buy a house. My sister put €40000 down on her house but this has now been swallowed up by negative equity, and she will unlikely ever get it back. She was able to pay it back when she bought the house. She is a public sector worker. Most public sector workers have been hit by cuts. Private sector workers have been hit by job losses. My sister's friend lost her job on Tuesday after 18 years service. She still has 5 years left on her mortgage. She has been able to pay it for 20 years, but could lose her house if she can't make the payments for the next 5 years. I imagine when you start earning a decent wage with the fire service, you'll save every penny and buy your car, house and holidays outright? Correct? You gonna use a push bike to get to work until you can pay for your car with cash?:realmad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graemsay Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I should probably add to my comments above that Australia strikes me as being a bit like Ireland before 2007 or 2008 right now: High house prices, high debt, and an unshakeable belief that there isn't a property bubble. No idea how it's going to play out, but I reckon that not buying a house unless you've got a very substantial deposit is possibly a good strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andy Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I should probably add to my comments above that Australia strikes me as being a bit like Ireland before 2007 or 2008 right now: High house prices, high debt, and an unshakeable belief that there isn't a property bubble. No idea how it's going to play out, but I reckon that not buying a house unless you've got a very substantial deposit is possibly a good strategy. Even that is dangerous though as misses b sister found out, £40,000 was a tidy sum for a deposit and that all went **** up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi PB do you have personal experience on being the this position??? Because IMO, unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of someone who say.......... has had to pick between feeding you kids and keeping a roof over their heads or paying off their debts, then you really can't judge. I'm sure you, social services and the rest of the world would have something to say if a child goes hungry or is neglected because someone felt that paying their debts was more important. If you can't get work in the uk (cos there aren't any) but can in oz with a fresh start, clean slate and are able to provide for your family, live a good life, why not start again. Miss B sister is hardly a serial rack up debt and run away from it serial offender here. If she was I'd be right there with you. Sounds like she's paid her way all the way until through no fault of her own, life has thrown a spanner in the works. So no need to be so harsh and at a risk of pi**ing you off, wind your neck in! To the original poster, good luck to you, my understanding is they can't follow you because you took out the the commitment governed by uk laws not Ozzie ones. And you've not broken an Ozzie agreement. Its not my place to judge anyone on this forum, if I had a choice, I would pay my debts, but I understand that sometimes, it's just not possible and we all need a second chance in life. Best of luck JoZ How can someone afford the huge cost of emigrating owing money? Some are are basically funding their move to oz on the money they owe other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Almost everyone will get a mortgage at some point. Almost no one can afford to buy a house outright. If you can, with your Fireman Sam wages, then fair play to you! But most of us have to borrow to buy a house. My sister put €40000 down on her house but this has now been swallowed up by negative equity, and she will unlikely ever get it back. She was able to pay it back when she bought the house. She is a public sector worker. Most public sector workers have been hit by cuts. Private sector workers have been hit by job losses. My sister's friend lost her job on Tuesday after 18 years service. She still has 5 years left on her mortgage. She has been able to pay it for 20 years, but could lose her house if she can't make the payments for the next 5 years. I imagine when you start earning a decent wage with the fire service, you'll save every penny and buy your car, house and holidays outright? Correct? You gonna use a push bike to get to work until you can pay for your car with cash?:realmad: I will rent because I think it is a far better way of life, I will not get a car as I prefer to cycle walk or use public transport which is far cheaper, some people need a car as their is no public transport but I know of plenty of people who have 2 new cars sitting on their drives with big loans, if someone is seriously in debt I feel for them but their are people far worse off in other parts of the world, and thanks for your concern for my way of life, looks like you have got it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacaranda Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Total horse sh7t PB. My sister has worked as a midwife all of her life. She saved a deposit for a house. She got a mortgage at the height of the property boom. Then the recession hit. She has taken a 14% pay cut in her wages. 14%!! Every month!! Not only that, she is on a variable rate mortgage. Interest rates have just gone up. Petrol costs more money and she was priced out of Dublin property, so she has to travel to work. She is in negative equity and is struggling to keep afloat. If she had the chance to move to Oz, I'd be telling her to go for it and leave the house behind. Everyone in Ireland is up to their neck in it. Life isn't about money you have or don't have. Leaving debt behind doesn't mean you've lived beyond your means. It can mean, for some, that the recession has brought them to their knees. Ireland is a depressing place right now and I don't think the UK has seen the worst of it yet. I would advise the OP to try and pay it off, as it will allow them to return with a clean slate, if they choose to. But I know, I wouldn't feel bad about leaving debt behind, if I literally couldn't afford to live or put food in my belly. I do feel empathy towards your sister hon,but surely if you can afford to move to Oz,you can afford to pay off your debts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I do feel empathy towards your sister hon,but surely if you can afford to move to Oz,you can afford to pay off your debts? The money some people owe is funding their move to oz, IMO it is wrong, but that is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joys of Oz Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 How can someone afford the huge cost of emigrating owing money? Some are are basically funding their move to oz on the money they owe other people. Theres the proof of of the pudding!!! If you don't know how this can happen then your certainly in no place to judge! never heard of sponsored jobs? Never heard of relocation packages! One of my closest friends moved with a massive debts caused by the fact he lost his job and couldn't get one in the uk. The wages in oz where just enough for them to get by, no money left over to pay back debts. They basically took the chance to provide for them selves in oz, there's no way the uk was going to give the opportunitys they needed to get by. Are you trying to tell me they should put them selves in a worse position in oz, having come from a knightmere in the uk and pay their debts???!!!! Sometimes, you need to cut your losses and start a fresh. And that's that! By leaving their debts behind, they got their fresh start, live a less stressful (money wise) life in oz. they contribute to Ozzie society and pay their bills and taxes according to their ability. youve clearly never been in such an awful place. I really hope you never do. So my stance on this still stands! Wind your neck in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And please be more considerate of other people's feelings. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm sure you wouldn't like it! JoZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmck Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would hardly call not paying a bankrupt usurious organisation who is merely surviving by sucking from the public teet immmoral. Paying gambling debts of spivs with fast cars and sharp suits with the money of a frontline nurse is hardly moral. If you can pay your debts then well and good. If you can't, then you can't take blood from a stone. Default is built into the system. It is factored into interest payments. What Missus B forgot to mention was the silly ammount her sister probably paid in Irish stamp duty. I wonder will the banks be so moral when required to payout on their Credit Defaul Swaps? Besides, the fact of the matter is that borrowing is inflationary. This means that the public collectively pay for the loan in the first place. The bank is not out any pots of gold or tangible assets. They were only too happ to issue loans to those who couldn't afford them in order to sell them off as Collateralised Debt Obligations. Don't get me started on Payday loans and the Gulag economy which they represent. If we are to talk about morals then why do bailed out billionaires get to borrow at 0.5% interest, whilst the poorest in society get that money passed on as payday loans at 1,500% APR? If this is the new green economy then it looks more like The Hunger Games. I like to pay my debts (if you could call them that as there is no consideration), it's less hassle that way obviously. The only debt I have is my credit card which I use for travel. That does not give me any right to pontificate over those who can't pay their debts. There have been many suicides in Ireland over debts. If it came to the crunch, I would leave the bank carrying the can rather than put myself into an early grave. That is the moral thing to do. Just look at what the IMF said recently about keeping wages in Ireland (or maybe it was the UK but that's neither here nor there)down. Maybe if banks did their job of supplying capital to the real economy instead of the casino, then real value could be added to society and people could pay their debts. A good economy is about the distribution of goods and services, not the asset stripping which we have seen in third world countries. I wouldn't worry about the morality of default. What would Jesus do to the money changers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graemsay Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Even that is dangerous though as misses b sister found out, £40,000 was a tidy sum for a deposit and that all went **** up. I'm cautious about saying don't buy a house because it is a risky strategy if you time it wrong, and markets are hugely unpredictable. Who would have predicted London is up by 20% or 30% from 2007, despite a credit crunch, a near death experience in the financial system, and the longest, deepest recession since the 1920s. If you make the wrong call, I think that you could end up a lot worse off. I wouldn't buy right now, but accept that might be a mistake. The trouble is I won't know for another four or five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Theres the proof of of the pudding!!! If you don't know how this can happen then your certainly in no place to judge! never heard of sponsored jobs? Never heard of relocation packages! One of my closest friends moved with a massive debts caused by the fact he lost his job and couldn't get one in the uk. The wages in oz where just enough for them to get by, no money left over to pay back debts. They basically took the chance to provide for them selves in oz, there's no way the uk was going to give the opportunitys they needed to get by. Are you trying to tell me they should put them selves in a worse position in oz, having come from a knightmere in the uk and pay their debts???!!!! Sometimes, you need to cut your losses and start a fresh. And that's that! By leaving their debts behind, they got their fresh start, live a less stressful (money wise) life in oz. they contribute to Ozzie society and pay their bills and taxes according to their ability. youve clearly never been in such an awful place. I really hope you never do. So my stance on this still stands! Wind your neck in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And please be more considerate of other people's feelings. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm sure you wouldn't like it! JoZ Wind my neck in because I think it is wrong to fund a move to oz whilst owning money that is not yours, are you for real? IMO it is immoral and if people can sleep well knowing they have in effect stolen money then good luck to them, maybe my moral standards are a little higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmck Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wind my neck in because I think it is wrong to fund a move to oz whilst owning money that is not yours, are you for real? IMO it is immoral and if people can sleep well knowing they have in effect stolen money then good luck to them, maybe my moral standards are a little higher. Who owns the money that the bank lends? Where does it come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graemsay Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Who owns the money that the bank lends? Where does it come from? Largely it's our money. The banks borrow from us when we deposit funds into an account, or from the money markets. If a bank fails then the government will either intervene and inject fresh capital, or guarantee our deposits to a certain level. In which case the loss is socialised. So if enough people get into financial difficulties then we all suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joys of Oz Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wind my neck in because I think it is wrong to fund a move to oz whilst owning money that is not yours, are you for real? IMO it is immoral and if people can sleep well knowing they have in effect stolen money then good luck to them, maybe my moral standards are a little higher. Thats not what was said and you know it. This funding moves to oz was nothing to do with my original displeasure of you being so harsh on miss b sister. You've added this debts to fund moves point afterwards. For what its worth (and as it stands, not much due to my lack of moral standing!!!) I agree with you. Adding this point afterwards to detract from the fact your in no place to judge miss b sister makes me wonder about your moral standards. Looks like your trying to make your self look better! So to finish this, we're in agreement that a move to oz shouldn't be funded by debt, however, I will say it again, when it comes to judging people who have no choice but to walk away!!! Wind your neck in!!! JoZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmck Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Largely it's our money. The banks borrow from us when we deposit funds into an account, or from the money markets. If a bank fails then the government will either intervene and inject fresh capital, or guarantee our deposits to a certain level. In which case the loss is socialised. So if enough people get into financial difficulties then we all suffer. We'll suffer anyway. Banks are reposessing houses anyway. If someone walks away stress free for a change, then that is good in my opinion. Iceland is a good example of the effect of refusing to socialise bank losses. If profits were socialised, then there would probably be a balance. The profits could be put into the real economy instead of sitting in Grand Cayman and Liechtenstein. It is unfortunate that those who contribute the least in real goods and services, profit from all economic activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I do feel empathy towards your sister hon,but surely if you can afford to move to Oz,you can afford to pay off your debts? Correction!! Read the post again. It is not me leaving debt behind to move to Oz. I have simply expressed an opinion. I have been lucky enough to be in a position to pay off my debt before moving. But not everyone is as lucky. And my sister is not moving either by the way.......:wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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