Retiring in SW Western Australia

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

not to mention the transient nature of the lifestyle, which you might find unfulfilling after a while.

That's what would stop me.  Before we retired, we talked about spending several months of each year abroad, but I soon realised it's just not practical.  When would I go?

I'm active in the U3A (university of the 3rd age) and attend various dance classes and social dances.  No matter what time of year I chose, I'd miss out on some event or activity that I don't want to miss.  There is a camaraderie in these groups;  if you're away for long periods, you can lose that, and it takes a while to settle in again when you come back. 

Basically I'm so busy enjoying myself, I barely have time for a holiday, let alone disappearing for months at a time.  I guess it would be different if I still had close family overseas.

Edited March 7 by Marisawright

[Toots]

12 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

That's what would stop me.  Before we retired, we talked about spending several months of each year abroad, but I soon realised it's just not practical.  When would I go?

I'm active in the U3A (university of the 3rd age) and attend various dance classes and social dances.  No matter what time of year I chose, I'd miss out on some event or activity that I don't want to miss.  There is a camaraderie in these groups;  if you're away for long periods, you can lose that, and it takes a while to settle in again when you come back. 

Basically I'm so busy enjoying myself, I barely have time for a holiday, let alone disappearing for months at a time.  I guess it would be different if I still had close family overseas.

I think @Blue Manna is a bit younger than us and I hope he does manage to live in both countries but as you get older all that travelling (for me anyway) would do my head in, never mind the two houses and all that entails.  My sister has only 3 weeks left of her time here and I will miss her terribly.  We have looked at me going over to the UK at some time but like you, I have so much happening here plus horses and our dog I can't drum up any enthusiasm for a lengthy visit.  We may meet half way and have a holiday .........  probably to break her journey the next time she comes here. 

[Blue Manna]

54 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

But as has been clarified recently on another thread, you don't get to decide where you're resident.   The respective tax authorities in the UK and Australia will look at your circumstances and they'll decide. If you split your time evenly between the two  countries, it's quite possible both will decide you are a tax resident.  Especially if you keep a permanent home in both countries. 

As I'll be retired this won't be a huge problem.

[Blue Manna]

44 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

That's what would stop me.  Before we retired, we talked about spending several months of each year abroad, but I soon realised it's just not practical.  When would I go?

I'm active in the U3A (university of the 3rd age) and attend various dance classes and social dances.  No matter what time of year I chose, I'd miss out on some event or activity that I don't want to miss.  There is a camaraderie in these groups;  if you're away for long periods, you can lose that, and it takes a while to settle in again when you come back. 

Basically I'm so busy enjoying myself, I barely have time for a holiday, let alone disappearing for months at a time.  I guess it would be different if I still had close family overseas.

That's easy. The UK in summer is the best place in the world. But I'd rather not spend another shitty wet winter in the UK.

Whilst my parents are alive we could do four months in Australia with no structural changes. After they pass we will find a more permanent solution.

Everyone seems to go looking for problems sometimes, when there really are no huge obstacles.

[Marisawright]

11 minutes ago, Blue Manna said:

As I'll be retired this won't be a huge problem.

.....however if your pensions are so small that you're not worried about tax, you probably can't afford to maintain two properties and the cost of all that travelling.

Also, while I agree the UK summer would be the best time to go overseas, that means missing a huge chunk of all my activities, because there's only a couple of weeks break in classes in June/July.  

Like I said, if I were more of a loner/homebody, that wouldn't be an issue.  But I count myself lucky to have a full calendar of friends and activities in Australia -- and while it would be nice to have some time with family overseas, and perhaps do some touring around Europe, in reality I don't find either of those things more attractive than what I would be doing here during that time. 

Edited March 7 by Marisawright

[ramot]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

That is the only reason we have gone back almost every year, for the past  21 years, because we have a son and grandsons there. We wouldn’t bother otherwise, too busy enjoying retirement here. We tried playing at a couple of bridge clubs when there, as visitors are very welcome here. weren’t made to feel welcome, no one spoke to us, no welcome mention before play, even told on one occasion that our bidding, Standard American, wasn’t compatible with their play. We didn’t go back, to either.  just seemed a different attitude to ‘outsiders’.

Sorry seem to failed to attach to Marisa’s post

Edited March 7 by ramot

[ramot]

37 minutes ago, Blue Manna said:

That's easy. The UK in summer is the best place in the world. But I'd rather not spend another shitty wet winter in the UK.

Whilst my parents are alive we could do four months in Australia with no structural changes. After they pass we will find a more permanent solution.

Everyone seems to go looking for problems sometimes, when there really are no huge obstacles.

Not looking for problems, just pointing out some of the realities, as possibly one of the very few posters who has actually experienced living between 2 countries for over 30 years,  Makes sense to me, to listen, and then weigh up the advice that has been given to help you in your decision.

[Blue Manna]

51 minutes ago, ramot said:

Not looking for problems, just pointing out some of the realities, as possibly one of the very few posters who has actually experienced living between 2 countries for over 30 years,  Makes sense to me, to listen, and then weigh up the advice that has been given to help you in your decision.

Been coming to Australia every year for 4-6 weeks. Initially we'll extend that to 8-12 weeks. Eventually we'll need a longer term solution.

I'll be asset rich income poor so maintaining two houses isn't a drama although it won't be necessary initially, and tax won't be a problem. I'm a cheap date, so the money side is fine.

We will have our kids living in the UK property as adults initially. This isn't going to be a massive change. It'll be a low risk thing we evolve into.

This isn't my thread, so I think people should stop hijacking it worrying about me when you really don't need to. I know what I'm doing.

[BendigoBoy]

2 hours ago, Toots said:

I think @Blue Manna is a bit younger than us and I hope he does manage to live in both countries but as you get older all that travelling (for me anyway) would do my head in, never mind the two houses and all that entails.  My sister has only 3 weeks left of her time here and I will miss her terribly.  We have looked at me going over to the UK at some time but like you, I have so much happening here plus horses and our dog I can't drum up any enthusiasm for a lengthy visit.  We may meet half way and have a holiday .........  probably to break her journey the next time she comes here. 

Singapore is always Heaven on Earth, @Toots

[Toots]

58 minutes ago, BendigoBoy said:

Singapore is always Heaven on Earth, @Toots

....................  or Sri Lanka.

[InnerVoice]

Good grief, what's happened to my thread? I can't leave you guys alone for 5 minutes!  

[InnerVoice]

On 07/03/2024 at 14:55, Marisawright said:

But as has been clarified recently on another thread, you don't get to decide where you're resident.  The respective tax authorities in the UK and Australia will look at your circumstances and they'll decide. If you split your time evenly between the two  countries, it's quite possible both will decide you are a tax resident.  Especially if you keep a permanent home in both countries. 

I don't think that's quite how it works in practice. When completing your Australian tax return you declare if you're an Australian resident or non-resident for tax purposes, so you decide. I've been here over 25 years and completed a tax return almost every year during that time, and the ATO has never stipulated that my tax residency was different to what I claimed it to be.

It's a long time since I've completed a UK tax return, but I assume you are required to make a similar declaration to the HMRC. Everything is automated these days, and I'd have thought the only time a tax authority will start looking into your circumstances more closely is if you appear to be evading taxes in their jurisdiction.

[InnerVoice]

On 07/03/2024 at 15:55, Blue Manna said:

That's easy. The UK in summer is the best place in the world. But I'd rather not spend another shitty wet winter in the UK.

When you've been living over here a few years, and especially when you haven't been back to the UK for a while, it's easy to forget just how long and dreary the British winter is. There are normally a couple of mild days in February which gives one false hope, only to be dashed by a month of rain in March and single-digit temperatures. Who could blame anyone for wanting to escape that on an annual basis - or even part of that!

[Toots]

12 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

When you've been living over here a few years, and especially when you haven't been back to the UK for a while, it's easy to forget just how long and dreary the British winter is. There are normally a couple of mild days in February which gives one false hope, only to be dashed by a month of rain in March and single-digit temperatures. Who could blame anyone for wanting to escape that on an annual basis - or even part of that!

The top 10 warmest winters on record for the UK include 2024, 2022, 2020, 2016 and 2014, and the top 10 wettest 2024, 2020, 2016 and 2014 – so very mild winters also show a tendency to be very wet.

[Marisawright]

22 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

I don't think that's quite how it works in practice. When completing your Australian tax return you declare if you're an Australian resident or non-resident for tax purposes, so you decide.

Maybe I should've said that you're not legally the one to decide.  What decides your tax liability, in each country, are the rules about residency and domicile, which are sometimes open to interpretation -- and it's the tax authorities who decide how they're going to interpret them!

So yes, you could make a unilateral decision which country you're going to be 'resident for tax purposes' in -- but if the other country gets wind of it, and takes a different view, then you won't just be due for extra tax.  You'll be up for fines, too.

The question would be, how likely are they to find out?   I know the ATO and HMRC share information on income nowadays, but whether they get information from Immigration as well, I don't know.

[InnerVoice]

4 hours ago, Toots said:

The top 10 warmest winters on record for the UK include 2024, 2022, 2020, 2016 and 2014, and the top 10 wettest 2024, 2020, 2016 and 2014 – so very mild winters also show a tendency to be very wet.

Sounds good on paper Toots, but the reality now is many more miserable, rainy days, compared to when we were growing up when you could expect a good dollop of snow combined with sunny frosty days, which made winter far more bearable.

[tea4too]

1 hour ago, InnerVoice said:

Sounds good on paper Toots, but the reality now is many more miserable, rainy days, compared to when we were growing up when you could expect a good dollop of snow combined with sunny frosty days, which made winter far more bearable.

We have definitely noticed a change in the weather, with UK winters consistently milder and wetter. But to be honest whether it's freezing cold or chucking it down for days, winter tends to be the time of year when we catch up with all the stuff there was no time for during the rest of the year, so I don't mind overly much. In some respects reading a good book in front of the log fire while the rain lashes the house is possible one of my happy times! Mum on the other hand really struggles when she can't get out to the garden and finds it hard to find other ways to fill her days. Time hangs heavy until the approach of spring, when she seems to shed the years as the lighter, brighter days put a literal spring in her step. Horses for courses I guess.T x

Edited March 9 by tea4too

[Blue Manna]

11 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

I don't think that's quite how it works in practice. When completing your Australian tax return you declare if you're an Australian resident or non-resident for tax purposes, so you decide. I've been here over 25 years and completed a tax return almost every year during that time, and the ATO has never stipulated that my tax residency was different to what I claimed it to be.

It's a long time since I've completed a UK tax return, but I assume you are required to make a similar declaration to the HMRC. Everything is automated these days, and I'd have thought the only time a tax authority will start looking into your circumstances more closely is if you appear to be evading taxes in their jurisdiction.

I've never had a problem with the double taxation agreement before. Maybe if you have really complicated stuff it might be difficult, but it always seemed really simple to me.

[Blue Manna]

8 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

Sounds good on paper Toots, but the reality now is many more miserable, rainy days, compared to when we were growing up when you could expect a good dollop of snow combined with sunny frosty days, which made winter far more bearable.

Incidentally, footpathmap.co.uk worked really well in WA. Best walking app I've found. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell you where knee deep mud is. But that's rarely a problem in WA. Unlike the swamp that the UK currently is.

[Toots]

9 hours ago, tea4too said:

We have definitely noticed a change in the weather, with UK winters consistently milder and wetter. But to be honest whether it's freezing cold or chucking it down for days, winter tends to be the time of year when we catch up with all the stuff there was no time for during the rest of the year, so I don't mind overly much. In some respects reading a good book in front of the log fire while the rain lashes the house is possible one of my happy times! Mum on the other hand really struggles when she can't get out to the garden and finds it hard to find other ways to fill her days. Time hangs heavy until the approach of spring, when she seems to shed the years as the lighter, brighter days put a literal spring in her step. Horses for courses I guess.T x

I really enjoy 4 distinct seasons.  We have had a lovely warm summer though a bit dry.  Now it's becoming more mellow now that autumn has arrived.  Winter we usually have frosty early mornings with chilly sunny days or lashing rain and gale force winds.  Whatever is thrown at us we cope just fine.

[InnerVoice]

19 hours ago, Marisawright said:

What decides your tax liability, in each country, are the rules about residency and domicile, which are sometimes open to interpretation -- and it's the tax authorities who decide how they're going to interpret them!

Those rules are clearly set out and there's even an interactive tool on the ATO website to help determine your tax residency, which covers the majority of situations. The same applies to the HMRC. I think most people would be able to work out their tax status from answering those questions honestly, unless they have rather unusual circumstances.

19 hours ago, Marisawright said:

So yes, you could make a unilateral decision which country you're going to be 'resident for tax purposes' in -- but if the other country gets wind of it, and takes a different view, then you won't just be due for extra tax.  You'll be up for fines, too.

That sounds like conjecture, and a bit of scaremongering.

It's not a unilateral decision, it's a declaration based on your personal circumstances. As long as you've answered questions honestly and declared all your income on any returns you're required to submit, I don't think you've too worry about. Both in the UK and Australia, I've phoned the tax office on several occasions with queries relating to completing my tax return, and I've always found them more than helpful.

The worst-case scenario is that you might be classed as resident for tax purposes by both jurisdictions, but as long as you've paid tax in the country where the income is sourced you're entitled to receive a tax credit in the other country, as per the DTA. As @Blue Manna said, unless you have a particularly complex set of circumstances it's going to be pretty straightforward for most people to sort out.

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

Those rules are clearly set out and there's even an interactive tool on the ATO website to help determine your tax residency, which covers the majority of situations. The same applies to the HMRC. I think most people would be able to work out their tax status from answering those questions honestly, unless they have rather unusual circumstances.

Yes I know, but let's go back to Blue Manna's original post. That's what I was referring to.  Blue Manna talked about staying six months in each country and said if he did that, he'd probably choose to be Australian resident for tax purposes.  All I said was, he won't get to just choose.  It will be determined by the rules and regulations (which he could determine by using the interactive tool, as you say).  If he wants to be an Australian resident for tax purposes, he probably can't stay 6 months in each country -- he'll have to tailor his travels to achieve the tax result he wants. He can't just travel back and forth as he pleases and then choose which tax regime to be taxed under. That's all I was trying to point out. 

Edited March 10 by Marisawright

[DrDougster]

7 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Yes I know, but let's go back to Blue Manna's original post. That's what I was referring to.  Blue Manna talked about staying six months in each country and said if he did that, he'd probably choose to be Australian resident for tax purposes.  All I said was, he won't get to just choose.  It will be determined by the rules and regulations (which he could determine by using the interactive tool, as you say).  If he wants to be an Australian resident for tax purposes, he probably can't stay 6 months in each country -- he'll have to tailor his travels to achieve the tax result he wants. He can't just travel back and forth as he pleases and then choose which tax regime to be taxed under. That's all I was trying to point out. 

Probably best to leave this kind of answer to one of the actual tax/accounting experts?

Original question...We moved across from Brisbane to Perth a little over a year ago. The area you ask about has some amazing scenery, vineyards and climate. The difference in temperature just a few hours drive South of Perth is pretty remarkable in the summer when many people head down there for Christmas.

Year round there is so much more sun here than in Brisbane and far less humidity. There seemed to be barely a week over there when it could string it together without rain and I don't miss those periods where all the paperbacks shrivel with humidity and towels are permanently wet. 

Healthcare is a bit primitive. There's a hospital at Bunbury and if you need specialist outpatient care lots of services are run out of Perth so Telehealth is an option unless you need to travel for the appointments. There are various radiology/pathology providers so basic testing is supported but not really much different to anywhere more than a couple of hours from a city in Aus.

[InnerVoice]

10 hours ago, DrDougster said:

Probably best to leave this kind of answer to one of the actual tax/accounting experts?

Original question...We moved across from Brisbane to Perth a little over a year ago. The area you ask about has some amazing scenery, vineyards and climate. The difference in temperature just a few hours drive South of Perth is pretty remarkable in the summer when many people head down there for Christmas.

Year round there is so much more sun here than in Brisbane and far less humidity. There seemed to be barely a week over there when it could string it together without rain and I don't miss those periods where all the paperbacks shrivel with humidity and towels are permanently wet. 

Healthcare is a bit primitive. There's a hospital at Bunbury and if you need specialist outpatient care lots of services are run out of Perth so Telehealth is an option unless you need to travel for the appointments. There are various radiology/pathology providers so basic testing is supported but not really much different to anywhere more than a couple of hours from a city in Aus.

Thanks, that's very helpful given that we'd also be moving from Queensland. I know what you mean about the humidity here - this summer has been an absolute shocker!

[Blue Manna]

If you were going to spend 3 months in SW WA, which 3 months would you spend?

I'm toying with Oct,Nov,Dec, or Jan,Feb,mar?

I know winter is quiet special down there, but I'd prefer the summer months.