UK economy slowing.

[newjez]

2 hours ago, Rallyman said:

More mines opening up on the east coast specifically coal , wa may have slowed but that is not the case here in the hunter and further north it’s ramping up again, as you well know Australia has a strict immigration policy it’s not an open boarder like the eu 

Which has led to much higher rates of immigration than in the UK, so it can't be that strict can it? Or how else do you explain that?

Ensuring that immigrants have a job before they come can be more protective than shipping in a load of immigrants and saying 'go get a job' - especially when they don't even have the qualifications to do the job - eg electricians. It's madness. Makes much more sense for them to skill up overseas, and then pass whatever tests and get a job before they come. It also enables companies to recruit and train from overseas if there are skills shortages.

During the 2003 IT recession they were still shipping in immigrants. They have no idea of the specialist fields within IT. You can spell IT - come in. It's madness and inefficient. 

You want to increase the fluidity, not put up barriers. Put up trade laws and employment laws to protect the domestic market.

I honestly can't see why you are all protecting a failing inefficient system when there are much better approaches that we could do.

[newjez]

2 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Don’t know what area you work in , but I had first hand expireance of eu nations taking work off me because they would do it for less and cash , as I was registered for vat at the time there was nothing I could do.

 

 

IT - one of the industries most affected by immigration. But I work with them. I do very well.

To be honest - if someone can't compete against someone who barely speaks English - then they don't deserve a job.

But at the same time, you need standards for trades, and you need employment laws to protect the domestic population.

But, you also need to look at the big picture. Is it better to have inefficient expensive companies when others can do it for much less, often better? Is the standard of building in the UK less than it was in the 70's?

What you are suggestion is protectionism. It's not a good thing, unless it is in the countries strategic interests.

In short - why should I pay you more when someone else can do the job better and for free?

[s713]

31 minutes ago, newjez said:

IT - one of the industries most affected by immigration. But I work with them. I do very well.

Same. I work for Telstra. I'd estimate half of all new employees are from India or China. I'm not sure what the argument is in this thread but if it's 'Australian jobs for Australian workers', you've got to be kidding.

[bunbury61]

22 hours ago, newjez said:

I'm not defending the current system.

No benefits until they have earned them.

Why put a cap? That just forces Brits into low paid jobs. If a job needs filling, fill it. If a British citizen can't compete against a non English speaking they don't deserve the job.

Just because a job isn't highly paid doesn't mean it's not important. Stop being a snob.

Anyone can come in and outstay a tourist visa. You need the laws to enforce. Border control means squat.

what ? ...stop being a snob...tbe bloody opposite actually .....READ MY POSTS .

Proper pay ,in proper jobs for British workers ....i have been saying it for years .

 

[bunbury61]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

IT - one of the industries most affected by immigration. But I work with them. I do very well.

To be honest - if someone can't compete against someone who barely speaks English - then they don't deserve a job.

But at the same time, you need standards for trades, and you need employment laws to protect the domestic population.

But, you also need to look at the big picture. Is it better to have inefficient expensive companies when others can do it for much less, often better? Is the standard of building in the UK less than it was in the 70's?

What you are suggestion is protectionism. It's not a good thing, unless it is in the countries strategic interests.

In short - why should I pay you more when someone else can do the job better and for free?

your last paragraph shows your true colours ...if Donald trump said that he would be crucified

 

[bunbury61]

7 minutes ago, bunbury61 said:

your last paragraph shows your true colours ...if Donald trump said that he would be crucified

 

and the people that benefit from this surplus of cheap , borderless labour ....the bloody globalists ,and big business

lovely profits

[newjez]

1 hour ago, bunbury61 said:

what ? ...stop being a snob...tbe bloody opposite actually .....READ MY POSTS .

Proper pay ,in proper jobs for British workers ....i have been saying it for years .

 

Let's face it, UK workers didn't have the best reputation in the 70s. From cowboy builders, strikes over biscuits, lazy spanner in the works factory employees, they needed a bit of competition from the continent to smarten them up.

British workers earn what they are worth.

Edited July 13, 2018 by newjez

[newjez]

1 hour ago, bunbury61 said:

your last paragraph shows your true colours ...if Donald trump said that he would be crucified

 

That was meant to say for less, spelcheckered.

[newjez]

54 minutes ago, bunbury61 said:

and the people that benefit from this surplus of cheap , borderless labour ....the bloody globalists ,and big business

lovely profits

No mate, we all benefit. I get my plumbing fixed well and at a reasonable price.

Although, I must have had twenty tradesmen quoting over the past month for various things, and all bar 1 were English. So we are hardly being over run.

If you are competent at your job, you should be able to cope with a little competition surely?

Edited July 13, 2018 by newjez

[newjez]

1 hour ago, bunbury61 said:

what ? ...stop being a snob...tbe bloody opposite actually .....READ MY POSTS .

Proper pay ,in proper jobs for British workers ....i have been saying it for years .

 

Why not for all workers?

[bunbury61]

4 hours ago, newjez said:

Why not for all workers?

yeah why not ? ....but you will Never ever see it again ,with the globalisation of the workforce .

the unions have zero say now .

and these big businesses make sure they have a nice surplus of cheap ,available ,insecure labour

its not about free movement of people ,that is the biggest smokescreen in history

[Rallyman]

6 hours ago, newjez said:

IT - one of the industries most affected by immigration. But I work with them. I do very well.

To be honest - if someone can't compete against someone who barely speaks English - then they don't deserve a job.

But at the same time, you need standards for trades, and you need employment laws to protect the domestic population.

But, you also need to look at the big picture. Is it better to have inefficient expensive companies when others can do it for much less, often better? Is the standard of building in the UK less than it was in the 70's?

What you are suggestion is protectionism. It's not a good thing, unless it is in the countries strategic interests.

In short - why should I pay you more when someone else can do the job better and for free?

The point I made completely shows you have no understanding of how things work 

your comment about competeing against somebody who can’t speak English is very insulting and shows how bigoted a view you have , the government brought in the equivalent of the white card a number of years ago ,I attended my course out of 25 there were only 3 of us who spoke English the rest all Eastern Europeans , One guy answered all the questions for the other 22 they all worked on a large site in a local city working for less than locals  , you just can’t compete against that , you have no idea sorry. 

my company was a legitimate business ,fully insured , payed tax and employed 3 full time staff , I have fixed overheads that I have to cover ,I can never compete with cowboys coming along and doing it for “cash “ the last job I lost to some polish builders they quoted for labour and materials at the cost I could buy the materials for   ,my quote was £300 more than his cheapest and £500 less than the most expensive ( the client had got 3 quotes ) , then the polish builder comes in 12k cheaper than all of us 

had a phone call 4 weeks later can I come and have a look as he didn’t think the job was being done right. I declined 

I am all for immigration but you can’t have a open door policy , I am a immigrant into Australia when there is a shortage in a specific field fair enough but not when guys have no work you can’t keep allowing any body to turn up 

And your last comment is a perfect example of today’s problem , how cheap can you do it and how quick how much for cash 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Rallyman

[BacktoDemocracy]

4 hours ago, newjez said:

Let's face it, UK workers didn't have the best reputation in the 70s. From cowboy builders, strikes over biscuits, lazy spanner in the works factory employees, they needed a bit of competition from the continent to smarten them up.

British workers earn what they are worth.

I don’t agree, the low productivity is largely down to years of under investment in both the public domain, mainly transport,  and by industrialists, where ever the private sector have taken over in the public domain they have resorted to short termism and profit taking, the English disease for 80 odd years.

[newjez]

47 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

I don’t agree, the low productivity is largely down to years of under investment in both the public domain, mainly transport,  and by industrialists, where ever the private sector have taken over in the public domain they have resorted to short termism and profit taking, the English disease for 80 odd years.

It is hard to generate investment when you have constant industrial action. But the fault lay equally with poor management. Different classes who didn't speak. 

Things seem to be better now. Because of Maggie? Because of the EU?

I don't know, I wasn't living here at the time. But something shifted.

[newjez]

55 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

The point I made completely shows you have no understanding of how things work 

your comment about competeing against somebody who can’t speak English is very insulting and shows how bigoted a view you have , the government brought in the equivalent of the white card a number of years ago ,I attended my course out of 25 there were only 3 of us who spoke English the rest all Eastern Europeans , One guy answered all the questions for the other 22 they all worked on a large site in a local city working for less than locals  , you just can’t compete against that , you have no idea sorry. 

my company was a legitimate business ,fully insured , payed tax and employed 3 full time staff , I have fixed overheads that I have to cover ,I can never compete with cowboys coming along and doing it for “cash “ the last job I lost to some polish builders they quoted for labour and materials at the cost I could buy the materials for   ,my quote was £300 more than his cheapest and £500 less than the most expensive ( the client had got 3 quotes ) , then the polish builder comes in 12k cheaper than all of us 

had a phone call 4 weeks later can I come and have a look as he didn’t think the job was being done right. I declined 

I am all for immigration but you can’t have a open door policy , I am a immigrant into Australia when there is a shortage in a specific field fair enough but not when guys have no work you can’t keep allowing any body to turn up 

And your last comment is a perfect example of today’s problem , how cheap can you do it and how quick how much for cash 

We always hire recommended tradesmen. People are mad if they don't. Price is important, but we haven't hired the cheapest for our extension.

Most companies pick the middle quote.

As I said, 19 out of twenty tradesmen were English.

As for cheating and cash in hand. No amount of regulation can stop people prepared to break the law. But you could always report them.

 

[newjez]

1 hour ago, bunbury61 said:

yeah why not ? ....but you will Never ever see it again ,with the globalisation of the workforce .

the unions have zero say now .

and these big businesses make sure they have a nice surplus of cheap ,available ,insecure labour

its not about free movement of people ,that is the biggest smokescreen in history

And you are a cheerleader for JRM? I really do despair.

[Rallyman]

8 hours ago, newjez said:

Which has led to much higher rates of immigration than in the UK, so it can't be that strict can it? Or how else do you explain that?

Immigration rates are dropping not increasing you are not making any sense 

 

[Rallyman]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

We always hire recommended tradesmen. People are mad if they don't. Price is important, but we haven't hired the cheapest for our extension.

Most companies pick the middle quote.

As I said, 19 out of twenty tradesmen were English.

As for cheating and cash in hand. No amount of regulation can stop people prepared to break the law. But you could always report them.

 

Not answering any of the points I raised highlighting the problem with open door immigration policy 

 

[Rallyman]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

It is hard to generate investment when you have constant industrial action. But the fault lay equally with poor management. Different classes who didn't speak. 

Things seem to be better now. Because of Maggie? Because of the EU?

I don't know, I wasn't living here at the time. But something shifted.

You never lived in the uk when Thatcher was in power , you live in the south east of the uk which has been in its own bubble for 35 years or more , My dads family are from Shoreham , they had a boat yard down by the docks .

Thatcher decimated the uk north of Watford gap and some areas have never fully recovered ,

Its been a boom bust cycle for 30 years or more 

[Gbye grey sky]

1 hour ago, Rallyman said:

You never lived in the uk when Thatcher was in power , you live in the south east of the uk which has been in its own bubble for 35 years or more , My dads family are from Shoreham , they had a boat yard down by the docks .

Thatcher decimated the uk north of Watford gap and some areas have never fully recovered ,

Its been a boom bust cycle for 30 years or more 

Thatcher may have helped hasten the demise of coal mining (though I feel militant unionists inadvertently played a part too) and other heavy industries which predominated in the north of England, Wales and Scotland but the writing was on the wall for them anyway.

Just looking at coal.  Long before 1980 the economics of deep mining coal was not stacking up.  In 1980 there were still 237,000 jobs in coal mining but this was down from over 600,000 in 1960 and a peak of 1,200,000 in 1920.  This was an industry of the past - even in 1980.

Can’t speak for shipbuilding but it was becoming increasingly apparent that Britain’s pre-eminence in this was at an end due to increased competition from Asia and elsewhere.

I think that living outside of the affected areas actually provides you with a greater sense of perspective and a better grasp of the bigger picture.  I understand that Thatcher remains a polarising figure but I feel that her standpoint was proven to be correct ultimately.

[Gbye grey sky]

1 hour ago, Rallyman said:

You never lived in the uk when Thatcher was in power , you live in the south east of the uk which has been in its own bubble for 35 years or more , My dads family are from Shoreham , they had a boat yard down by the docks .

Thatcher decimated the uk north of Watford gap and some areas have never fully recovered ,

Its been a boom bust cycle for 30 years or more 

Before Thatcher though it was just bust, sadly.

[Rallyman]

9 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

Thatcher may have helped hasten the demise of coal mining (though I feel militant unionists inadvertently played a part too) and other heavy industries which predominated in the north of England, Wales and Scotland but the writing was on the wall for them anyway.

Just looking at coal.  Long before 1980 the economics of deep mining coal was not stacking up.  In 1980 there were still 237,000 jobs in coal mining but this was down from over 600,000 in 1960 and a peak of 1,200,000 in 1920.  This was an industry of the past - even in 1980.

Can’t speak for shipbuilding but it was becoming increasingly apparent that Britain’s pre-eminence in this was at an end due to increased competition from Asia and elsewhere.

I think that living outside of the affected areas actually provides you with a greater sense of perspective and a better grasp of the bigger picture.  I understand that Thatcher remains a polarising figure but I feel that her standpoint was proven to be correct ultimately.

Can’t disagree with any of that except living out side gives a greater grasp of the situation , having lived through it , it was hell , you felt worthless and at the end of the day you just wanted to get work to pay your way and a roof over your head.

 what I didn’t understand then as a young man and to this day was why the government never had a plan after all these men were made unemployed , the Tory’s wasted all the North Sea oil money paying a welfare state bill , there were some highly skilled men in that workforce who were just left to rot , the world has moved on since those days where more work can be done by less people and more productively , so an even great emphasis to control immigration not open boarder policy 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Rallyman

[newjez]

3 hours ago, Rallyman said:

You never lived in the uk when Thatcher was in power , you live in the south east of the uk which has been in its own bubble for 35 years or more , My dads family are from Shoreham , they had a boat yard down by the docks .

Thatcher decimated the uk north of Watford gap and some areas have never fully recovered ,

Its been a boom bust cycle for 30 years or more 

But of course we have nice Tories now don't we, who will make brexit wonderful for all those northern folk. It's comical.

[newjez]

3 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Immigration rates are dropping not increasing you are not making any sense 

 

Has the points system changed dramatically over the last ten years? If not, why the drop in immigration?

[newjez]

3 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Not answering any of the points I raised highlighting the problem with open door immigration policy 

 

Seems to me you were highlighting the problems with the black market, people fudging qualifications and taking cash in hand.

What has that got to do with immigration? Or are immigrants more likely to break the law?