UK economy slowing.

[newjez]

1 hour ago, Rallyman said:

Can’t disagree with any of that except living out side gives a greater grasp of the situation , having lived through it , it was hell , you felt worthless and at the end of the day you just wanted to get work to pay your way and a roof over your head.

 what I didn’t understand then as a young man and to this day was why the government never had a plan after all these men were made unemployed , the Tory’s wasted all the North Sea oil money paying a welfare state bill , there were some highly skilled men in that workforce who were just left to rot , the world has moved on since those days where more work can be done by less people and more productively , so an even great emphasis to control immigration not open boarder policy 

I guess because they were a Tory government and they were labour seats. Why would they invest in them. Same argument stands now. I just can't understand why people think the bastards will start investing if there is a brexit impact. Why would they? Why would it be different? 

People from the north are going to wake up one day and realise they have been taken for a ride again by the Tories and ukip. It's so sad. Just to solve some Tory squabble. JRM. Give me strength.

[Rallyman]

11 minutes ago, newjez said:

Seems to me you were highlighting the problems with the black market, people fudging qualifications and taking cash in hand.

What has that got to do with immigration? Or are immigrants more likely to break the law?

Sort of proves my point you don’t understand , how would you feel if One day 50,000 turned up and started taking your work ,because they will work for less , no refelection on your skill or ability to do the job just they will work for less money and next thing your wages are going down and less work about , this is the fact of what you deal with when you have open boarders 

[Gbye grey sky]

46 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Sort of proves my point you don’t understand , how would you feel if One day 50,000 turned up and started taking your work ,because they will work for less , no refelection on your skill or ability to do the job just they will work for less money and next thing your wages are going down and less work about , this is the fact of what you deal with when you have open boarders 

I do understand this but, in a sense, it is the same issue when it comes to free trade.  Other countries pay less to workers and/or have lower rents or taxes so can undercut goods produced in your country.  I guess the only answer to both is to build your business on quality, reliability and after-sales care, build and nurture a reputation.  There were Polish tradesmen around where I lived in Surrey.  Nothing against them by I preferred local tradesmen who came recommended.

Cash in hand whether to a Pole or any other person meant there was no record of the work done and no comeback.  Never worth it as far as I was concerned.  There are always going to be people who want the cheapest and then gripe later about a bad job but good tradespeople were always fully booked around our neck of the woods.

[Rallyman]

1 hour ago, Gbye grey sky said:

I do understand this but, in a sense, it is the same issue when it comes to free trade.  Other countries pay less to workers and/or have lower rents or taxes so can undercut goods produced in your country.  I guess the only answer to both is to build your business on quality, reliability and after-sales care, build and nurture a reputation.  There were Polish tradesmen around where I lived in Surrey.  Nothing against them by I preferred local tradesmen who came recommended.

Cash in hand whether to a Pole or any other person meant there was no record of the work done and no comeback.  Never worth it as far as I was concerned.  There are always going to be people who want the cheapest and then gripe later about a bad job but good tradespeople were always fully booked around our neck of the woods.

I don’t have a problem when there is a skill shortage all for it but when you have your own population struggling for work you can’t keep an open boarder policy 

agree the cash economy will never be eliminated , I never advertised for my work it was always on recommendation , I prided myself on the quality , service and dedication I gave to my customers 

The same principles I apply  here in oz 

[BacktoDemocracy]

11 hours ago, newjez said:

It is hard to generate investment when you have constant industrial action. But the fault lay equally with poor management. Different classes who didn't speak. 

Things seem to be better now. Because of Maggie? Because of the EU?

I don't know, I wasn't living here at the time. But something shifted.

Since 1980 we have been fed a diet of free trade and market economics with no consideration of any alternative economic thought, since Osborne adopted austerity in 2010 as the economic panacea to get our finances right the debt has grown by 660 mill!!! Not reduced.

At the same time productivity has flatlined!!!

At a time when borrowing was actually in negative territory.

But economic orthodoxy according to the Tories is that borrowing to invest in productive public infrastructure is beyond evil, although that is how every successful business operates........and they are the party of business........don't make me laugh.

Osborne went to the Evening Standard and has converted a 10 mill profit into a 2.5 mill deficit......you couldn't make it up.

Posh schoolkids with not an idea between them other than simplistic ideology about making the rich richer,  as if that will magically transform us into a manufacturing super power. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

10 hours ago, Rallyman said:

You never lived in the uk when Thatcher was in power , you live in the south east of the uk which has been in its own bubble for 35 years or more , My dads family are from Shoreham , they had a boat yard down by the docks .

Thatcher decimated the uk north of Watford gap and some areas have never fully recovered ,

Its been a boom bust cycle for 30 years or more 

It's been boom bust for 70 years, down mainly to short termism, profit taking and under investment throughout that  period.

[newjez]

24 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Since 1980 we have been fed a diet of free trade and market economics with no consideration of any alternative economic thought, since Osborne adopted austerity in 2010 as the economic panacea to get our finances right the debt has grown by 660 mill!!! Not reduced.

At the same time productivity has flatlined!!!

At a time when borrowing was actually in negative territory.

But economic orthodoxy according to the Tories is that borrowing to invest in productive public infrastructure is beyond evil, although that is how every successful business operates........and they are the party of business........don't make me laugh.

Osborne went to the Evening Standard and has converted a 10 mill profit into a 2.5 mill deficit......you couldn't make it up.

Posh schoolkids with not an idea between them other than simplistic ideology about making the rich richer,  as if that will magically transform us into a manufacturing super power. 

It's been a long time since I studied economics, and I never majored in it.

There are a lot of interesting theories on money. How it works, what it is, who and how it is created. 

Classical, Keynesian, Austrian, monetarist, MMT.

I should read up on MMT, but I honestly don't have the time.

 

 

[BacktoDemocracy]

26 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Since 1980 we have been fed a diet of free trade and market economics with no consideration of any alternative economic thought, since Osborne adopted austerity in 2010 as the economic panacea to get our finances right the debt has grown by 660 mill!!! Not reduced.

At the same time productivity has flatlined!!!

At a time when borrowing was actually in negative territory.

But economic orthodoxy according to the Tories is that borrowing to invest in productive public infrastructure is beyond evil, although that is how every successful business operates........and they are the party of business........don't make me laugh.

Osborne went to the Evening Standard and has converted a 10 mill profit into a 2.5 mill deficit......you couldn't make it up.

Posh schoolkids with not an idea between them other than simplistic ideology about making the rich richer,  as if that will magically transform us into a manufacturing super power. 

Sorry should be

 

Osborne went to the Evening Standard and has converted a 2.2 mill PROFIT into a 10 mill DEFICIT......you couldn't make it up.

 

And

, since Osborne adopted austerity in 2010 as the economic panacea to get our finances right the debt has grown by 550 BILLION! Not reduced.

[BacktoDemocracy]

25 minutes ago, newjez said:

It's been a long time since I studied economics, and I never majored in it.

There are a lot of interesting theories on money. How it works, what it is, who and how it is created. 

Classical, Keynesian, Austrian, monetarist, MMT.

I should read up on MMT, but I honestly don't have the time.

 

 

I have only a basic, hazy understanding but it seems obvious that during a slump to actually reduce investment will only take spending out of the economy and magnify the effects of the slump, which Osborne's austerity has done, the most noticeable effect has been in retail, the effects of which are being explained away as due to online sales and increases in rates and rents, both of which are affecting retail but fundamentally demand is  falling due to low wages and low wage growth.

Immigration is of course being used as a deflationary tool by  politicians and business but now deflation is causing economic problems across the board and was one the main drivers for the brexit vote, another complete balls up by the idiot poshkids who thought they could keep on tightening the screws and there would be no come backs.

Well they got their comeback with brexit, if people had been able to see a future there would have been no brexit vote, people voted for brexit because they were pissed with being told austerity for another 5 years and nobody believed him any more after being told that for 5 years, well now it is going to be austerity for ever.

The posh gits got us into this and they have no idea how to get us out of it!!!

Edited July 14, 2018 by BacktoDemocracy

[newjez]

11 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

I have only a basic, hazy understanding but it seems obvious that during a slump to actually reduce investment will only take spending out of the economy and magnify the effects of the slump, which Osborne's austerity has done, the most noticeable effect has been in retail, the effects of which are being explained away as due to online sales and increases in rates and rents, both of which are affecting retail but fundamentally demand is  falling due to low wages and low wage growth.

Immigration is of course being used as a deflationary tool by  politicians and business but now deflation is causing economic problems across the board and was one the main drivers for the brexit vote, another complete balls up by the idiot poshkids who thought they could keep on tightening the screws and there would be no come backs.

Well they got their comeback with brexit, if people had been able to see a future there would have been no brexit vote, people voted for brexit because they were pissed with being told austerity for another 5 years and nobody believed him any more after being told that for 5 years, well now it is going to be austerity for ever.

The posh gits got us into this and they have no idea how to get us out of it!!!

I disagreed with Osborne. Stupid to draw the purse strings during a recession.

The GFC was caused due to poor regulation. Labour has to take alot of the blame for that, but they did seem to be recovering when Osbourne screwed it up.

Free movement smooths over boom bust, up to a point. It can cause asset inflation, property, and that isn't factored in. I have always thought that the bank of England needs to increase their inflation shopping basket to include and give greater emphasis to long term assets.

Plus, the government needs to react to these property hot spots with infrastructure, as it will be under pressure.

Most people don't understand government debt. Most comments on it are laughable. There are times to increase debt. There are times when you shouldn't.

Edited July 14, 2018 by newjez

[Paul1Perth]

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 11:05, Gbye grey sky said:

 

The tragedy for Britain and many other countries is that there are millions like you all cranking up strange conspiracies and spreading them across the internet and the airwaves.  I hanker for the good old days when such views were limited to the slightly nutty loner in the corner of the pub nursing his brown and mild.  Who knew that this would ever become so mainstream.

As more and more "nutty loners" see it happening there will be more acceptance and understanding.

[Paul1Perth]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 04:38, BacktoDemocracy said:

I don’t agree, the low productivity is largely down to years of under investment in both the public domain, mainly transport,  and by industrialists, where ever the private sector have taken over in the public domain they have resorted to short termism and profit taking, the English disease for 80 odd years.

Productivity is usually quoted for manufacturing. A factory full of robots in England is no less productive than one in China. It's just the small number of people needed to run it will be paid less and have zero rights. Easier for big globalised companies to get their stuff made there.

A British trained Brickie, plumber, sparkie, mechanic, who's done an approved apprenticeship would be the best bet if you're getting work done though. They would be undercut on the quote by Eastern Europeans, calling on their cheap labour of 4 guys living in a shared house but thems the risks you take.

Same in Aus really. We paid a lot more for our bathroom reno to a builder who we know is good. Our friends thought of using him but got a cheaper quote. They've had nothing but problems with the job.

[Paul1Perth]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 08:40, Gbye grey sky said:

Before Thatcher though it was just bust, sadly.

No it wasn't. The North of England and the heavy Engineering places were just fine and great places to grow up. I was there.

[Paul1Perth]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:15, newjez said:

But of course we have nice Tories now don't we, who will make brexit wonderful for all those northern folk. It's comical.

Don't think the Northern folk think Brexit and the tories will improve their lot. Probably just saw what's happening and thought things can't be much worse, may as well have a change.

[Paul1Perth]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:17, newjez said:

Has the points system changed dramatically over the last ten years? If not, why the drop in immigration?

The points system changes month to month. It's an ongoing adjustable tool that tries to meet demand. There are all sorts of different visas available. A lot of them short term. I've seen it change dramatically.

[Paul1Perth]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 11:30, Gbye grey sky said:

I do understand this but, in a sense, it is the same issue when it comes to free trade.  Other countries pay less to workers and/or have lower rents or taxes so can undercut goods produced in your country.  I guess the only answer to both is to build your business on quality, reliability and after-sales care, build and nurture a reputation.  There were Polish tradesmen around where I lived in Surrey.  Nothing against them by I preferred local tradesmen who came recommended.

Cash in hand whether to a Pole or any other person meant there was no record of the work done and no comeback.  Never worth it as far as I was concerned.  There are always going to be people who want the cheapest and then gripe later about a bad job but good tradespeople were always fully booked around our neck of the woods.

Quality, reliability and after sales care cost money. When everyone is looking for the cheapest deal and it's cheaper to buy another widget than get the one you have fixed is the way the worlds gone.

[Gbye grey sky]

2 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

No it wasn't. The North of England and the heavy Engineering places were just fine and great places to grow up. I was there.

I recall power being switched off half the week, Britain going cap in hand to the IMF because the country was essentially bankrupt, national wage restraints imposed by the government leading to mass strikes and rubbish not being collected, the dead not being buried etc. The 70’s was a shit decade overall but, hey, perhaps it was nice where you were.

[Gbye grey sky]

2 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Quality, reliability and after sales care cost money. When everyone is looking for the cheapest deal and it's cheaper to buy another widget than get the one you have fixed is the way the worlds gone.

Not everyone though.  Helps if you read the post first that you’re replying to.

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Don't think the Northern folk think Brexit and the tories will improve their lot. Probably just saw what's happening and thought things can't be much worse, may as well have a change.

Now that is what I call a thought thro decision making process.

[Paul1Perth]

35 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

I recall power being switched off half the week, Britain going cap in hand to the IMF because the country was essentially bankrupt, national wage restraints imposed by the government leading to mass strikes and rubbish not being collected, the dead not being buried etc. The 70’s was a shit decade overall but, hey, perhaps it was nice where you were.

Bit like the 60s for me. "If you can remember it you weren't there". I seem to remember what you talk about but you know how time affects people and you only remember the good bits.

Guess I was just young and only interested in beer, fast cars and faster women.. Seemed a good idea at the time.

[Paul1Perth]

32 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Now that is what I call a thought thro decision making process.

They could have spent months sifting through arguments and counter arguments and still been none the wiser. Even now nobody knows what it means.

The experts were predicting doom and gloom the day after yet most of what I've heard since has been unemployment falling, economy not changed much, people seem to be getting by OK.

[Paul1Perth]

47 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

Not everyone though.  Helps if you read the post first that you’re replying to.

OK. Most people looking for the cheapest deal. Biggest affect is big companies looking for the cheapest deal for their labour. Offshoring jobs to the cheapest place they can find. 

Ring any number of company help lines and see how many get put through to some Indian call centre where you can barely understand the staff.

Those places aren't going to have a social conscience and employ a few good intelligent back office, English speaking staff, based in the UK in the name of good customer service.

Maybe 40 years ago but not now.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Paul1Perth

[newjez]

6 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

The points system changes month to month. It's an ongoing adjustable tool that tries to meet demand. There are all sorts of different visas available. A lot of them short term. I've seen it change dramatically.

Yes, they stopped hair dressing didn't they

[Paul1Perth]

13 hours ago, newjez said:

Yes, they stopped hair dressing didn't they

Changes all the time mate. As do visa numbers. Lot less 457's being dished out now. Never been easy to get in.

[newjez]

12 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Changes all the time mate. As do visa numbers. Lot less 457's being dished out now. Never been easy to get in.

Of course it does. They try and match the points system to areas where there is a shortage of workers.

Holding my breath here - but surely you must be able to understand that just letting people apply for those jobs directly would be a hell of a lot simpler and more efficient than using a points system? I'm mean, come on. Work with me here. Points systems are terrible. For example - you may need a performance DBA skilled with fine tuning websites on SQL Server. The points system will keep pulling in DBAs until finally you may get one you want, and all the others will struggle to get jobs. Just let the people with the skills apply for the job which requires their skills, and let the people hiring choose who they want for the job. Why use this antiquated system of 'control' which just annoys everyone.