Changes to pathway to Citizenship

[Roberta2]

3 minutes ago, jolie2015 said:

Not sure if you're talking about the Queen or aspiring politicians who are dual nationals...

Lizzie is a foreigner.  Of course it's absurd.  But isn't the hereditary principle absurd?  

 

[jolie2015]

15 minutes ago, Roberta2 said:

Lizzie is a foreigner.  Of course it's absurd.  But isn't the hereditary principle absurd?  

 

By all means.

[Keith and Linda]

2 hours ago, jolie2015 said:

Not sure if you're talking about the Queen or aspiring politicians who are dual nationals...

politicians

[jess6]

2 hours ago, Roberta2 said:

We had a referendum in 1999, with Malcolm Turnbull as leader of the Republican movement, and Tony Abbott on the other side.  (One reason they have never been exactly mates.) Those in favour could not agree on how the Head of State would be chosen - by popular election, or by two thirds vote of the parliament.  So then PM John Howard was able to drive through the middle and it was defeated.

 I think there is widespread agreement that the Republican movement will have another go - after a decent interval following the Queen's passing.  And will probably succeed next time.  Among other things, we've had high levels of immigration since then from China and India, and most of those people probably think the current situation is odd.  (India became a republic upon independence in 1947) .  

By the way, Elizabeth II is a foreigner according to the Australian High Court ruling in 1999.  The case of Heather Hill, a One Nation Senator.  Precisely this issue of dual citizenship.

As for dual citizenship, you can't say the NZ or Canada is OK, but China is not.  Has to be one law for all. 

 

I guess it would depend on countries relationships. Technically, it could be ok for a NZ citizen to be dual but not for a Chinese citizen. Not saying that I agree with this but it could be possible.

You can get dual citizenship with Germany if you are a EU or Swiss citizen for example. As a French, I could have got dual citizenship (German - French) for example, I just did not ask. But I do not think it applies to other countries.

Then if the Constitution stipulates that you can be a representative if you are an Australian Citizen - and does not put any restriction on dual citizenship or on having acquired the citizenship from birth - then you could have dual citizen (Australian-Canadian) as national representatives. 

I am not saying it will happen and I am not specifically advocating for any of this - I just want to put out there that everything is possible really  

[jess6]

2 hours ago, Keith and Linda said:

If they feel passionate enough about representing Australian people and passing laws for Australia, then they should be passionate about being an Australian and abide by Australian laws/rules/regulations.

Regarding the Greens, I do believe it was a mistake I do not think they were intending to game the system. 

That being said, it's all a question of flexibility and seeing the world as a whole rather than countries against countries. That's obviously the European in me talking and I get that for people who haven't grown up in EU, this can be difficult to see as loyal or acceptable. 

[Parley]

3 hours ago, Roberta2 said:

I don't vote for the Greens but I do think the cases of the two Green Senators were genuine mistakes.    Everyone has 20: 20 hindsight.

Laziness really or not thinking they would be found out.

A parliamentarian would know the rules better than anyone. 

It is inconceivable that if one knows they are born overseas they do not check thoroughly to ensure they are not a citizen of that country.

These are not stupid people.

[Roberta2]

Not a simple matter at all, in some cases.  Sam Dastyari says he paid $25,000 to be sure he was not still a citizen of Iran.  Larissa Waters says she paid two QCs to look at her case last weekend; would not want to pay that bill.  In her case, she came back to Australia as a baby a week before the rules were changed.  In some countries, citizenship is conferred by being born there.  In many others, it is not.  e.g. Malcolm Roberts was born in Singapore, but there is no way he could ever have become a citizen of Singapore.  And, as in Waters's case, countries can also change their rules over time.  She has never even visited Canada.  

[Parley]

That is no excuse.

She was born in Canada. It is not that hard to find out if you are a citizen of the place you were born.

Why are you making excuses ?

Are you a Greens voter ?

[Roberta2]

 

List of those who may not be federal politicians:

44. Any person who -

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: 

 

[Roberta2]

Just now, Parley said:

That is no excuse.

She was born in Canada. It is not that hard to find out if you are a citizen of the place you were born.

Why are you making excuses ?

Are you a Greens voter ?

Do you read the papers or listen to the news, or even read posts properly?

[Parley]

Of course.

I don't get why you are making lame excuses for these people who were to lazy to check their citizenship.

They made no attempt to check their status.

[jess6]

55 minutes ago, Parley said:

Of course.

I don't get why you are making lame excuses for these people who were to lazy to check their citizenship.

They made no attempt to check their status.

Why do you call people lazy? How would you know how hard it is to check a citizenship status? 

She was crying on TV and she apologised. What else do you need to excuse her? 

Have you never made any mistakes in your life to feel so superior to the rest of humanity? 

Edited July 20, 2017 by jess6

[jess6]

59 minutes ago, Roberta2 said:

 

List of those who may not be federal politicians:

44. Any person who -

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: 

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Parley]

4 minutes ago, jess6 said:

Why do you call people lazy? How would you know how hard it is to check a citizenship status? 

She was crying on TV and she apologised. What else do you need to excuse her? 

Have you never made any mistakes in your life to feel so superior to the rest of humanity? 

Of course it was lazy.

Scott Ludlum had been in office 10 years. He never checked at time of entry to parliament or at any time until a private citizen advised him he was going to challenge him in the high court.

The private citizen simply asked for a check on the NZ citizenship register which turned up Ludlum's name.

A similar story with Larissa  Waters. She didn't make any attempt to check until very recently when she realised other people would be checking her citizenship status.

Ii is reprehensible behaviour from the pair of them.

Note that all the other politicians have come out showing how they checked and renounced their citizenships years ago when they entered Parliament.

The Greens seem to think they are not required to do what everyone else has to,

[jess6]

3 minutes ago, Parley said:

Of course it was lazy.

Scott Ludlum had been in office 10 years. He never checked at time of entry to parliament or at any time until a private citizen advised him he was going to challenge him in the high court.

The private citizen simply asked for a check on the NZ citizenship register which turned up Ludlum's name.

A similar story with Larissa  Waters. She didn't make any attempt to check until very recently when she realised other people would be checking her citizenship status.

Ii is reprehensible behaviour from the pair of them.

Note that all the other politicians have come out showing how they checked and renounced their citizenships years ago when they entered Parliament.

The Greens seem to think they are not required to do what everyone else has to,

Is there public visibility of all other politicians'citizenship? I did not know that.

I agree, on the principle, politicians should obey the law and not feel that they are above it. Can we give them the benefit of the doubt though?

I am not Australian so I cannot vote but being from France, I have seen politicians doing things way worst than this - like using public money in a dodgy way. Really I find it's a bit of a drama for nothing, especially because they are from NZ and Canada. It's not like they were some kind of active spy.

I admit It's not cool for the electors who voted for them and wanted to be represented by them because they believed in their ideas. I'd be their elector, I'd be a little annoyed because of that.

[peterthepom]

Does anyone know when this decision will be made in parliament? Is there a date?

We called immigration today who are in limbo.

We need to go home for family reasons but could hold off till May (when we can apply for citizenship under old rules) 

From what I understand it seems more than likely the changes will take place.

 

Pet & Roo 

[Roberta2]

The Senate Committee reports early Sept.  Then presumably the Bill will be debated in the House and then the Senate.   No one can predict the result with this Senate, though the report of its own committee will obviously be very important.  As a guess, I would think they will "land" somewhere between the current four year wait and the proposed one year.  But who knows?

[peterthepom]

[Roberta2]

1 hour ago, jess6 said:

Thanks for sharing!

Well, I recently learned (by reading the papers) that although Elizabeth II was in Australia,^[5] New Zealand, and the United Kingdom,^[6] she was proclaimed as Queen Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of this Realm and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, our very own High Court in 1999 proclaimed her to be a foreigner.  When push came to shove over a One Nation senator, incidentally.

Jeez, next we'll be asking which faith she is defending.  

Of course, Henry VIII proclaimed himself "Defender of the Faith" even before The Split.  Then when Elizabeth I had no "issue", James VI of Scotland became James 1, and thus became Defender of two faiths - the Church of England and the Church of Scotland, whose doctrines ain't exactly the same by any means.

Once the Great Unwashed start asking questions, where will it end?  

Mindya, Prince Charles is said to be a disestablishmentarian.  Try pronouncing that one when you fall out of bed in the morning...

[wombatinabox]

Hi Folks,

Important reminder, The following Senators will be the main deciding factor if this Citizenship Bill goes ahead or rejected. So if you are affected by this bill, without delay make sure you email the following senators with your story and opposition to this bill and ask them to reject the bill:

1. Nick Xenophon (Team Xenophon Party) senator.xenophon@aph.gov.au

2. Stirling Griff (Team Xenophon Party) senator.griff@aph.gov.au

3. Skye Kakoschke-Moore (Team Xenophon Party) senator.kakoschke-moore@aph.gov.au

4. Derryn Hinch (Justice Party) senator.hinch@aph.gov.au

 5. Lucy Gichuhi (Independent) senator.gichuhi@aph.gov.au

Points you can mention (Retrospective/backdating nature of this Bill, Applications freeze since April20, extra 4 years wait for non-PR, English level 6 test, extra votes they can win by rejecting this bill from near-future citizens, new powers for Minister to override courts, any other stuff affecting you, etc )

I have personally received responses from all of these Senators, spoke to some of them and in some cases their policy assistants, who all confirmed that they are leaning towards rejecting or watering down the bill but haven't made a decision yet (on the fence), continued pressure from the public like yourselves will help steer them in the right direction. I have also been in touch with Labour and Greens Reps & senators who are united in strongly opposing the bill.

In addition, it also helps contacting your local MP and State Senator (regardless of Party),  you can find them using the following tool: http://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members

I hope most of you got the time to email the Senate committee with your submissions, these submissions will be reviewed by the Senate:  legcon.sen@aph.gov.au  (Deadline July 21st )

Keep up the pressure, we can do it!

Edited July 22, 2017 by wombatinabox

[Roberta2]

 

I don't think Dutton's recent power grab has helped his cause.....quite the contrary.

 

I wouldn't bother contacting the One Nation Senators....

[Parley]

Given none of you can vote, do you really think politicians care what you think ?

Surely they would listen to voting citizens in their electorates.

[Keith and Linda]

1 hour ago, Parley said:

Given none of you can vote, do you really think politicians care what you think ?

Surely they would listen to voting citizens in their electorates.

Pretty evident that politicians would not check up on every individuals voting right, but surely they still need to listen to the public feelings in their electorate

[ian360]

6 hours ago, Parley said:

Given none of you can vote, do you really think politicians care what you think ?

Surely they would listen to voting citizens in their electorates.

 

4 hours ago, Keith and Linda said:

Pretty evident that politicians would not check up on every individuals voting right, but surely they still need to listen to the public feelings in their electorate

Plus in the not so distant future, many of us on PR will become citizens and then we will be voters. So it could certainly come back to bite the politicians. It really depends on how short sighted they choose to be.

[jess6]

10 hours ago, Parley said:

Given none of you can vote, do you really think politicians care what you think ?

Surely they would listen to voting citizens in their electorates.

1 - Most PR holders do not live in isolation and consequently have Australian friends and family who care, support them and also give feedback.

2 - Most PR holders are future citizens so any smart politician would definitely listen.