fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 It's even more pointless since the OP is a NZ citizen and doesn't need a visa to live or work in Australia. So not allowed an opinion then?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 So not allowed an opinion then?? When it comes to the provision of a service and pricing for it, I would look first for opinions of those who had used the service; were in the process of using it; or who aspired to use it. Getting angry about the standard of a service that you don't use and won't use is really the preserve of slightly autistic teenagers with ADHD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Pumpkin why do you constantly talk about me being upset or being angry? did you take a degree in psychology or something? I understand you love your adopted country and would do and pay anything to get there. "obtaining actual points without having to obtain points" did i say this? or did i say without having to obtain additional points? and calling me stupid just shows what a bully you areon this site. Please feel free to insert the word additional into my post above if it helps. Tell you what, I will go back and do that. I don't think it changes anything though. They are not "additional" points, they are just "points". And it is just one of numerous hurdles. And I said your comments / posts were stupid. Not you, I am sure that you are very bright. FYI. I am happy enough here but pretty neutral about my adopted country really and I am very loyal to my original country. So if you want to debate with me, I would suggest you comment upon things I have actually said, not my love for my adopted country or whether I would pay anything to get here - because that is just made up nonsense on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Grey Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Thank you Adam for answering my initial question without chastising me for IELTS :smile: I have done so many scenarios to calculate for 60 points and i have so far not found a way to get it without either having a partner to gain 5 points or doing the IELTS, as you have to have obtained a degree by the time you are 22, then obtain a position straight away to gain the experience points, to hit the best age bracket for points, but maybe I am missing something 31 year old, bachelor degree qualified, 5 years exp outside Aus, 1 year exp inside.....Just one example. Of course the system benefits those those that can achieve a high IELTS score, having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degree. It's not for monetary reasons, it's to help exclude certain applicants. The real problem is that the IELTS test was never designed for this purpose and concentrating on the band scores rather than overall ability is ridiculous. There's all kinds of genuinely baffling criteria and completely unfair rules in the system as a whole. Just look at the ACS criteria as a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 When it comes to the provision of a service and pricing for it, I would look first for opinions of those who had used the service; were in the process of using it; or who aspired to use it. Getting angry about the standard of a service that you don't use and won't use is really the preserve of slightly autistic teenagers with ADHD. I would need to use it to get PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 31 year old, bachelor degree qualified, 5 years exp outside Aus, 1 year exp inside.....Just one example. Of course the system benefits those those that can achieve a high IELTS score, having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degree. It's not for monetary reasons, it's to help exclude certain applicants. The real problem is that the IELTS test was never designed for this purpose and concentrating on the band scores rather than overall ability is ridiculous. There's all kinds of genuinely baffling criteria and completely unfair rules in the system as a whole. Just look at the ACS criteria as a prime example. having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degree but if you have a doctorate degree you still have to get superior English to go for independent skilled migrant as you cannot be 31 with 5 years experience outside Australia, and 1 year inside I am sorry but I cannot see how you cannot have to do IELTS Level 7 so why not just make it part of the immigration process, and not and additional points allowance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I would need to use it to get PR You don't get PR if you are a New Zealand citizen. You can live and work in Australia as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Please feel free to insert the word additional into my post above if it helps. Tell you what, I will go back and do that. I don't think it changes anything though. They are not "additional" points, they are just "points". And it is just one of numerous hurdles. And I said your comments / posts were stupid. Not you, I am sure that you are very bright. FYI. I am happy enough here but pretty neutral about my adopted country really and I am very loyal to my original country. So if you want to debate with me, I would suggest you comment upon things I have actually said, not my love for my adopted country or whether I would pay anything to get here - because that is just made up nonsense on your part. Ok so when If I look at PR and go to the many agent websites, i put my optimum age, my optimum qualification, and my optimum experience which would be max 5 years, why do i get unfortunately you do not achieve the required points but you may obtain additional points if A your partner has a skill B you take IELTS and pass level 7 or 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 You don't get PR if you are a New Zealand citizen. You can live and work in Australia as you wish. Yes we do as we are not entitled to any health benefits if we are not PR so although we can work freely we do not get any help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Yes we do as we are not entitled to any health benefits if we are not PR so although we can work freely we do not get any help You don't get reciprocal Medicare like Brits get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 You don't get reciprocal Medicare like Brits get? We get limited access as you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Grey Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degreebut if you have a doctorate degree you still have to get superior English to go for independent skilled migrant as you cannot be 31 with 5 years experience outside Australia, and 1 year inside I am sorry but I cannot see how you cannot have to do IELTS Level 7 so why not just make it part of the immigration process, and not and additional points allowance? Not sure what you're getting at? I gave you an example of how a person could do it. I've also seen many people get enough points without IELTS, especially those going through state sponsored 190. Even taking your comment above regarding a doctorate. A 38 year old Phd holder with 8 years exp would have enough points. Really can't see the issue here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 We get limited access as you do If it's the same then it's actually a LOT of access. I was on just that for five years and was never not covered. Even an eye test every two years is covered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alnaibii Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 You can get 60 points without IELTS points. But it will cost you more. Partner assessment - 1000$, or State Sponsorship - NSW 300$ (I heard some states do not charge a fee). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benthomas010 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degree Its not. Clearly. Having a degree / relevant qualification is mandatory in the application. Without that - you cannot progress. IELTS is just another option to make up the remaining points required. If native english speakers weren't allowed this option we would actually be disadvantaged vs the non native speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killara Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 ... we live in New Zealand .... it amazes me that you don't get anything for securing job, so basically it like yes we want you but immigration won't let us have you because you are over 40!!!! 1. No points for securing a job - as others have said, if you can secure a job, and want to pursue Australian PR, then there are employer-sponsored PR visa options which do not require any points score. As a NZ Citizen, there are also more favourable exemptions of the age requirement which can be obtained on employer sponsored visas than for other nationalities, so employers in Australia really face little difficulty hiring you as a NZ citizen. 2. Immigration will not stop an employer hiring you because you are over 40. Requirements for obtaining Australian PR however are set by the Australian government, not the employers, so the government can and has set an age criteria for skilled migration - though, as stated, with more favourable exemptions of the age requirement for NZ citizens. 3. Your posts have been about meeting the points requirement for an independent skilled PR visa - in my view, it makes perfect sense that no points be awarded for securing a job for an "independent" PR visa - the idea being that the visa applicant for the "independent" skilled visa possesses skills and qualifications to such a level that no job offer is required to be granted the PR visa; implicent in the reasoning behind this is that with the skills and qualification that the independent skilled applicant has (in an occupation in which is considered to be needed in Australia), DIBP can have reasonable confidence that the independent skilled visa applicant (given their proven skills, qualifications, and ability in the English language) will be able to find employment in Australia. To award points for a job offer, but not for proving English language ability, would almost certainly lead to PR being granted to persons who then lose their jobs because they cannot communicate to the required professional level in English. If you secure a job then you can get a sponsored visa not requiring any points at all. I didn't need to do the English test when my employer sponsored me for a perminant visa. Exactly... and the reasoning behind this is that the required ability in the English language has been proved by the fact that the person has been employed in the position for the required period of time, so they have demonstrated that they have the required level of English language skills to perform the job. Yes Blossom that is a route but it still does not stop the fact that you cannot get 60 points on skilled independent so it is just a scam to get more money from you but apparently people are willing to pay it rather than get sponsored which amazes me!! Not a scam; the IELTS fee doesn't go to DIBP; and it shouldn't amaze you that people are very willing (and let me be clear: not only very willing, but indeed very happy) to pay the IELTS fee rather than get sponsored. Being able to get PR without sponsorship is a huge deal for most people. Avoiding potential difficulties with sponsorship and not being obligated to an employer is a huge benefit of an independent skilled visa, and taking IELTS is a very small price to pay if it is the difference between an independent skilled visa and requiring sponsorship. Potential problems of sponsorship breaking down are more serious for non-NZ citizens, as a non-NZ citizen might not be able to stay, let alone work, in Australia, whereas the NZ citizen in this situation would be able to continue to live and work in Australia. So perhaps your amazement is because you are only looking at it from the point of view of being a NZ citizen. The requirements for grant of skilled independent visa applies to all nationalities equally. It's even more pointless since the OP is a NZ citizen and doesn't need a visa to live or work in Australia. NZ citizens do need a visa to live and work in Australia. Most NZ citizens who are not permanent residents of Australia hold a Special Category Visa (subclass 444), which is a temporary visa which is usually granted each time the NZ citizen lands in Australia and ceasing each time they leave Australia. You don't get PR if you are a New Zealand citizen. You can live and work in Australia as you wish. Many NZ citizens do get Australian PR. Yes we do as we are not entitled to any health benefits if we are not PR so although we can work freely we do not get any help We get limited access as you do If it's the same then it's actually a LOT of access. I was on just that for five years and was never not covered. Even an eye test every two years is covered! NZ citizens residing in Australia can enrol in Medicare: http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/medicare/medicare-card/medicare-enrolment-for-new-zealand-citizens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeDownUnder Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Education points received by sitting an exam to prove you are competent. Skill assessment to prove you are competent. English test...surprise surprise .... To prove you are competent. What a shocker... The government would be accused of racism if they did not make every person follow the same criteria and therefore everybody sits IELTS. Besides, I know plenty of English people who would do worse than some of our Indian contractors. It is by far the fairest way. No doubt there are people holding British passports since birth who may not even speak English (eg if they were born here but returned to another country as a child). it also makes perfect sense that they place such a high emphasis on language / communication . There is no point having a skilled employee if they cannot understand colleagues / requirements / customers correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Great points @Killara although my pr visa wasn't after a 457 visa, so it wasn't a case of having proved my English ability through having worked there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay24 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 We get limited access as you do My husband is a NZ citizen and has the same Medicare benefits I do as a PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay24 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 While I can understand the basic principle that citizens from Canada, UK, USA, NZ, etc. don't have to prove their English proficiency by virtue of having a passport from their home country, I think it's flawed logic. I've met many people in the province of Quebec who, because they live in a French-speaking part of the country, speak very little English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 I just been watching The Force and not one of the individuals filmed on there could speak English, so how did they get in, using this fair immigration criteria!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 My husband is a NZ citizen and has the same Medicare benefits I do as a PR. Yes you are right its is education,unemployment benefits, and i think child benefits you dont get on an SCV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieMay24 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I just been watching The Force and not one of the individuals filmed on there could speak English, so how did they get in, using this fair immigration criteria!! Many visas don't require English proficiency. Dependents can be included in skilled visa applications without demonstrating English proficiency and simply paying the secondary fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Senise Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 having superior English is considered the same 'worth' as having a doctorate degreebut if you have a doctorate degree you still have to get superior English to go for independent skilled migrant as you cannot be 31 with 5 years experience outside Australia, and 1 year inside I am sorry but I cannot see how you cannot have to do IELTS Level 7 so why not just make it part of the immigration process, and not and additional points allowance? I actually do see your point. Occupations which you can become qualified in more quickly, gain an advantage under the current points system. This is a result of a one size fits all approach. It is never going to work perfectly when the system is trying to assess such a wide range of circumstances and occupations under the same arrangements. An alternative would be occupation specific visa categories, however, this would make an already complicated system more difficult. This was a bigger problem years ago when an overseas student who completed a 2 year qualification in Cooking or Hairdressing, could easily meet the points requirements ahead of Doctors and Engineers. The system has been change to address the problem but it is still imperfect. English is always going to be a contentious issue as Australia cannot be seen to discriminate against non-English speaking counties and therefore must apply the English requirements equally to all applicants. To be fair, I have seen some native English speakers with terrible English language skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 I actually do see your point. Occupations which you can become qualified in more quickly, gain an advantage under the current points system. This is a result of a one size fits all approach. It is never going to work perfectly when the system is trying to assess such a wide range of circumstances and occupations under the same arrangements. An alternative would be occupation specific visa categories, however, this would make an already complicated system more difficult. This was a bigger problem years ago when an overseas student who completed a 2 year qualification in Cooking or Hairdressing, could easily meet the points requirements ahead of Doctors and Engineers. The system has been change to address the problem but it is still imperfect. English is always going to be a contentious issue as Australia cannot be seen to discriminate against non-English speaking counties and therefore must apply the English requirements equally to all applicants. To be fair, I have seen some native English speakers with terrible English language skills. Thank you for seeing my point, and yes you are right i have spoken to many a British person who i do actually have to think how they have made it through life with their lack of spoken English. Hope you don't get any backlash for seeing my point :jiggy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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