Sign our petition to stop them bringing in a $4000 school fee for children on 457 visas!

[ErmintrudeMcMoo]

Ok,so what do we have so far?

1 457 is a temporary visa, so what would these families be doing at the end of the 4 years?

2. Many people on that visa chose wa because other states charge for schooling

3. Some chose that visa because they couldn't afford PR visa or didn't qualify

4 everyone going through the visa process knows that the government can and do changethe goal post, I know of very few who have not lost sleep going though the process no matter which visa they chose.

5. Can anyone clarify whether current holders will be affected?

6. I don't think it's vitriol against 457 holders its just a plain statement of the facts.

7. I don't think the State government are doing anything illegal or wrong...... unfair quite possibly, maybe even morally wrong but hey that's no surprise in WA politics.

if it puts people coming to Wa off that visa and it leads to a shortage then I think the government would have to re assess their plans, does anyone know if anything similar happened in other states or did they always have it that payment for education was required?

[Tickled Pink]

I could be wrong in this, but are 457 visa holders also able to take a lump sum from any pension contributions when they leave? Therefore, some might say - and I am not arguing one way or the other, simply putting it out there - that this takes further revenue from Australia? So free education, plus taking back a lump sum from pension contributions, means they possibly leave a deficit?? I don't know, I just heard someone talking about it, but I don't know the ins and outs of pension stuff on a 457...

[Ronan20]

Now there is a conspiracy theory . I paid a lot more tax than Super, and got less benefits than a citizen or a holder of PR visa. Super money is not Government money, it is my money, so that I wouldn't be a drain on the state. Forced savings for old age if you like

[LKC]

We came to NSW so we factored in school fees until we were able to apply for PR, but I do agree that changing the goalposts for those already here does seem rather harsh.

 

Do Australian children whose parents are in the UK whether permanently or temporarily, pay for schooling, or is that free? Also, does the British government receive any kind of payment in lieu of those who have been educated in the UK to a skilled level, and who have subsequently taken those skills to Australia? Just asking because I don't know.

Edited August 19, 2013 by LKC
Spelling

[HappyHeart]

I'd be interested to see the stats for 457 visa holders who return to country of origin. In my 'limited' experience, most 457 visa holders that I am aware of seek to gain permanent residency and view the 457 as a stepping stone to citizenship. Most 457 visa holders will eventually contribute fully to society, pay their taxes while here and plan a long term future in Australia. I think thats the problem and why a lot are aggrieved..they don't view themselves as 'temps' rightly or wrongly..the govt know this and are keen to use them as needed and dispose of once not.

 

457 visa holders are unable to access valuable child related tax breaks. Once PR many families can claim substantial amounts from the tax credits system. Arguably 457 visa holders with children give than they take and are a source of cheap labour for Australia.

[Xenon4017]

I could be wrong in this, but are 457 visa holders also able to take a lump sum from any pension contributions when they leave? Therefore, some might say - and I am not arguing one way or the other, simply putting it out there - that this takes further revenue from Australia? So free education, plus taking back a lump sum from pension contributions, means they possibly leave a deficit?? I don't know, I just heard someone talking about it, but I don't know the ins and outs of pension stuff on a 457...

 

That's a point. And I've heard that 457s who leave the country are taking all the toilet rolls and light bulbs with them. I'm not saying it's true, but it would explain a lot.......

[LKC]

I'd be interested to see the stats for 457 visa holders who return to country of origin. In my 'limited' experience, most 457 visa holders that I am aware of seek to gain permanent residency and view the 457 as a stepping stone to citizenship. Most 457 visa holders will eventually contribute fully to society, pay their taxes while here and plan a long term future in Australia. I think thats the problem and why a lot are aggrieved..they don't view themselves as 'temps' rightly or wrongly..the govt know this and are keen to use them as needed and dispose of once not.

 

457 visa holders are unable to access valuable child related tax breaks. Once PR many families can claim substantial amounts from the tax credits system. Arguably 457 visa holders with children give than they take and are a source of cheap labour for Australia.

 

And not forgetting, of course, that the Australian tax payers haven't had to pay for the education of the skilled worker/visa holder, who have brought their skills in to Australia to fill a gap. Who recompenses the British and other tax payers for that?

[Que Sera Sera]

Hey, don't forget QLD! And TAS. OK, forget TAS, but without QLD Australia wouldn't have a pointy bit at the top right. And that's about the only bit people can draw correctly.

 

Anyway, your question was how long before the change goes nationwide? Just as soon as the polis realise it's a vote winner. Get tough on boat people, get tough on 457s. Get tough on anyone who can be scapegoated without being able to fight back.

 

If employers do come under pressure, I would imagine they'll just try to sponsor PR, which would work out cheaper. Maybe for some 457s it'll be a less than an ill wind.

 

As for venom, this gets pretty close:

>>I've seen too many here flashing the cash on big houses and living in areas they can't afford $76 a week is barely more than a carton of beer. Ultimately though if they don't like it they can always go back to the UK they do have that option.

 

What brand of beer are you drinking? And are you drinking the whole carton before you post?

 

A family with two kids will have to get 8k together in 4 months. 500 bucks a week. I couldn't do that. And they've had no warning.

 

 

I don't drink beer I drink cheap wine but my OH drinks expensive beer ( his choice! ) where has it been said the whole $4000 is going to have to be paid in one go at the start of the school year we pay our school fees monthly. It's just something we budget for just like everything else .

[flag of convenience]

And not forgetting, of course, that the Australian tax payers haven't had to pay for the education of the skilled worker/visa holder, who have brought their skills in to Australia to fill a gap. Who recompenses the British and other tax payers for that?

 

Indeed. All skilled immigration is poaching from one source or another. There is an argument that a person should perform in the country that gave them their education, until they have at least paid off the initial cost. Or an alternative would be a cash payment to buy out their time.

What is especially gruelling is the poaching of third world graduates from countries that can ill afford to loose them when they move to higher wage western countries. The poaching of nurses from Ghana and Zimbabwe are examples of this but there are many.

 

Settler societies such as Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand really benefit from this movement of people. Fully trained, willing to work, compliant, at no cost to the host country.

[flag of convenience]

And not forgetting, of course, that the Australian tax payers haven't had to pay for the education of the skilled worker/visa holder, who have brought their skills in to Australia to fill a gap. Who recompenses the British and other tax payers for that?

 

The theory being 457 being temp will return to home country, creating value through work experience abroad. Now if 457s are coming in for other reasons, like a cheaper, faster route to PR then that's another matter. But on the grounds of being here on a temp basis they should pay.

[LKC]

Indeed. All skilled immigration is poaching from one source or another. There is an argument that a person should perform in the country that gave them their education, until they have at least paid off the initial cost. Or an alternative would be a cash payment to buy out their time.

What is especially gruelling is the poaching of third world graduates from countries that can ill afford to loose them when they move to higher wage western countries. The poaching of nurses from Ghana and Zimbabwe are examples of this but there are many.

 

Settler societies such as Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand really benefit from this movement of people. Fully trained, willing to work, compliant, at no cost to the host country.

 

It's just all this talk of free education for the children of some visa holders and not others, made me wonder about the education of those skilled workers themselves. Surely the benefits of 'poaching' those skilled workers from other countries, whether they are on a 457 or any other visa, far outweighs the cost of schooling their children.

 

For example, we came on a 457 and moved to NSW, where we had to pay for schooling, although we only had to pay for one year because we were granted PR. So, Australia has gained my OH, who went through primary and secondary school, and university, at the cost of the British tax payer (although really, he worked in the UK for something like 14 years, so I suppose you could say his personal 'debt' for his education was paid through taxes collected in that time). He came over to Australia to fill a skilled position, he directly employed a number of Australians (and still does), paid the same tax as everyone else, and we still had to pay for eldest to go to school. That was fine, and I had no objection to paying at all because we knew that we would have to pay it until we got PR, but it does kind of show that maybe what Australia is gaining is far in excess to what they are giving back. They didn't pay for any of OH's education, and he is the one here working and paying tax.

 

I am not saying that I objected to paying, because I didn't. It was just one of the many things that we budgeted for. I suppose the thing that people are upset about, is that WA are changing the goalposts for those who are already here. Those people knew the good and bad about the 457, and made the decision to uproot their family and come to Australia based on those facts. Just as we chose to come to NSW and budgeted for schooling, those going to WA assumed (whether rightly or wrongly) that they didn't have to budget.

[ArthurPendragon]

Aw Chiara that is such a shame for you but you hit the nail on the head when you put Indians first in your list of who comes on 457s. It's the non English speaking kids who are putting a massive drain on resources. Aussie kids going to Ireland can already speak English.

 

Yet another rant against India. Last I heard, Indians speak good English. Scripps spell bee winners for the past few years in the US of A have been Indian kids. There are lots of Indian kids in selective schools all over Australia

[ArthurPendragon]

Reality time kids.....

 

The 457 system has been massively abused by mostly Indians and the govt are now tightening it up. No if's no but's no maybe's..... They will try and find a weakness and then exploit it for all it's worth. Happened with higher ed, now 457's..... Good on the govt for acting I say.

Well, looks like its not the Indians who abuse the system most as this news article shows-

http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/illegal-immigrants-arrive-by-plane/story-e6frea6u-1226200568050

If the government is tightening the loopholes, how come Indians are still the largest migrant group this year?

[LojaChica]

http://www.detinternational.nsw.edu.au/media-assets/trp/fee-exemption.pdf

 

Check this out?

From NSW Temporary Visa Holders Unit

Does/Will this exemption apply in WA?

[Joebloggs]

I can't believethe amount of venom directed against 457 visa holders on this site. A lot of it seems to be from posters who have PR, and hate the thought of people coming over on 457, who they think may have had an easier ride or may not have spent the same amount of money. I have seen a few posters post that "I spent a lot of money... well so what!! try and not be so nasty. Someone else made the comment, that PR were potential voters, well so could 457 visaholders be potential voters.

This is rubbish legislation, that nobody could have foreseen, not even the wonderful visionaries on this site that have PR. If they can change the rules for the 457 visa holders without thinking of the consequences, they can just as easily do it for PR visa holders. You are not a protected species.

Rant over......:mad:

 

As an Ex457 holder myself I don't think there is any venom from other posters, I would say its more the case of some people telling the truth and some 457 visa holders in denial what a 457 visa actually is.

 

If you read the DIAC migration statistics 457 are not even counted in the migrant program as they are not viewed as migrants at all, 457 is only a temporary visa for cheap disposable workers and is just really a WHV for over 30s. Some of the people are not even skilled at all, when I applied for a 457 they didn't even do any sort of verification of my skills at all and I could have supplied the biggest load of BS and they would have just accepted it. When I went for PR I had to supply all the notarised paperwork because its a more serious process.

 

It's only right that these people contribute to the education of their kids, the majority of these kids won't be around in the future to return their taxes (not their parents taxes) to the system so there is no investment for the state to fully fund it.

 

You have to look at the big picture in the long term.... of which many people affected by this refuse to do so.

 

The PR/citizens that you accuse of being venomous are voicing their opinion because it could have a knock on effect on them in the future..... long after people like you are gone.

[flag of convenience]

It's just all this talk of free education for the children of some visa holders and not others, made me wonder about the education of those skilled workers themselves. Surely the benefits of 'poaching' those skilled workers from other countries, whether they are on a 457 or any other visa, far outweighs the cost of schooling their children.

 

For example, we came on a 457 and moved to NSW, where we had to pay for schooling, although we only had to pay for one year because we were granted PR. So, Australia has gained my OH, who went through primary and secondary school, and university, at the cost of the British tax payer (although really, he worked in the UK for something like 14 years, so I suppose you could say his personal 'debt' for his education was paid through taxes collected in that time). He came over to Australia to fill a skilled position, he directly employed a number of Australians (and still does), paid the same tax as everyone else, and we still had to pay for eldest to go to school. That was fine, and I had no objection to paying at all because we knew that we would have to pay it until we got PR, but it does kind of show that maybe what Australia is gaining is far in excess to what they are giving back. They didn't pay for any of OH's education, and he is the one here working and paying tax.

 

I am not saying that I objected to paying, because I didn't. It was just one of the many things that we budgeted for. I suppose the thing that people are upset about, is that WA are changing the goalposts for those who are already here. Those people knew the good and bad about the 457, and made the decision to uproot their family and come to Australia based on those facts. Just as we chose to come to NSW and budgeted for schooling, those going to WA assumed (whether rightly or wrongly) that they didn't have to budget.

 

I'm sorry but in my book it remains the same. Your husband coming on a 457 hopefully got a good deal worth, uprooting the family for to have a spell in Australia.

Coming as a temp I'm afraid does not ensure the same rights as one that actually comes as an immigrant.

 

It is certainly not your fault but the entire visa became questionable once the initial demand that onshore labour must be sought prior to going off shore. It was an abuse by business that sadly made many uncomfortable with what was in theory a good visa, enabling business to fill in the cracks with professional staff on a short term basis.

 

 

As I suggested a years grace could have been given in fairness. What will the Abbott lot do though? Hopefully fairness all round and not a return to how things were in bringing out folk willy nilly with no regards to local job seekers.

[Ronan20]

I feelreassured that if the rules were changed tomorrow morning for PR visa holders,with a hefty financial kick thrown in, there would be no complaining, as it would be all for the good of Australia and its citizens

[Xenon4017]

I feelreassured that if the rules were changed tomorrow morning for PR visa holders,with a hefty financial kick thrown in, there would be no complaining, as it would be all for the good of Australia and its citizens

 

I assume you mean what would happen if PRs had to pay for their kids schooling too?

 

Well there'd be an absolute uproar at the injustice of it all. We'd take our case to the UN court of Human Rights and find out that PR is an artificial construct which can be changed and revoked at any given time. Rights to citizenship could be too. There's very little chiseled in stone. Other countries are much more guarded about letting people in permanently.

 

And therein lies the danger of demonising a segment of the population. You never know if you'll be in the next segment.

[Guest]

:mask: Only me, nipping in to do a bit of a mod mop up.

 

I've deleted numerous recent posts from this thread as per the forum rules.

 

Please keep it decent and on topic. Otherwise will look at infractions for those continuing to offend.

 

Thanks in advance

 

snifter

[jen85]

Coming in on a 457 has always been risky as it is just a "temporary" work visa and doesn't entitle the holder to anything specific. You have to plan a worst case scenario and make sure you have extra cash in case.

[flag of convenience]

Coming in on a 457 has always been risky as it is just a "temporary" work visa and doesn't entitle the holder to anything specific. You have to plan a worst case scenario and make sure you have extra cash in case.

 

Exactly. They strike up a deal beneficial to the applicant it would be assumed and no entitlements. Why would folk through the traditional means of immigration if 457s had the same and more? And cheaper and quicker and less red tape to get through?

[yc1ten]

I feelreassured that if the rules were changed tomorrow morning for PR visa holders,with a hefty financial kick thrown in, there would be no complaining, as it would be all for the good of Australia and its citizens

 

It has changed, Holder of Permanent Visa is no longer eligible for HECS....No complaint!

[Guest]

I completely agree that the 457 visa is temporary and not an ideal one for families and it is subject to change. However in the current global economic climate not everyone has the luxury of waiting for PR or perhaps have been unemployed for so long they don't qualify or simply couldn't afford the process etc. Many of the 457 visa holders earn a very modest income and simply cannot afford this fee. There must be very stressed parents in WA at the moment who simply don't know what to do, go home or stick it out. I think the state govt were very irresponsible to announce this fee in the Budget without having ironed out all the details. My head understands the logic behind it but my heart goes out to anyone who has to find this money and the stress this must be causing.

[jen85]

I completely agree that the 457 visa is temporary and not an ideal one for families and it is subject to change. However in the current global economic climate not everyone has the luxury of waiting for PR or perhaps have been unemployed for so long they don't qualify or simply couldn't afford the process etc. Many of the 457 visa holders earn a very modest income and simply cannot afford this fee. There must be very stressed parents in WA at the moment who simply don't know what to do, go home or stick it out. I think the state govt were very irresponsible to announce this fee in the Budget without having ironed out all the details. My head understands the logic behind it but my heart goes out to anyone who has to find this money and the stress this must be causing.

 

Agree with you but sorry if this offends anyone, if you can't afford to emigrate in a way which won't see you thrown out or having to leave then I think best stay where you are. Australia is not cheap and hopefully people will one day realize for their own and their families benefit.

[Ronan20]

Agree with you but sorry if this offends anyone, if you can't afford to emigrate in a way which won't see you thrown out or having to leave then I think best stay where you are. Australia is not cheap and hopefully people will one day realize for their own and their families benefit.

 

So if a bloke is out of work for say 6 months, cannot afford to do bugger all, is offered the chance of a 457 visa, where the company will fly him and his family over, with the chance to start afresh, in your opinion, he should stay where he is. Complete nonsense

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ronan20