Perthbum Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 ..............I think this thread has shown most of us.............that the only way we could ever understand people with depression and suicidal tendencies..............is to get inside their skin........and live their lives.........experience their anguish.....................as obviously we cannot do that............perhaps a bit of compassion for their desperate times............we are all entitled to our opinions............but could temper them with a little kindness..........it costs nothing............ Agree, and lets not only feel sorry for the people who commit suicide....lets remember the people they leave behind who have a life sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Thankyou, and as you're entitled to your opinion also... But you ruin lives for ever. I see a way of maybe breaking a cycle that isn't working for someone. And allowing someones family to grieve for someone then in time know they're better off. Time is a great healer. Shame most people, me I know for one lol, are impatient and want the pain to all go now. As I said, it's a very emotive and dividing subject. Shame it's a subject that exists but it does and support is all we can give to people really. You are obviously a caring person but I still think that many people pull away from suicide because they they ave a wife and children, these to me are the real brave souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Yes seriously, I am not trying to upset anyone, jeez give me a break, i am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else! My personal opinion on this is that when there are people out there whose lives are affected by terminal illness or have lost their lives to a tragedy such as a car accident they do not have a choice, i feel it is a very selfish act for people who particularly have family and friends to choose to end their life when they do have a choice and that in doing so they lack complete consideration for the affect it with have on others for the rest of their lives. There are tons of support networks and places people could turn, particularly if as we are saying in this topic it is financially related. It's very easy for people to assume all suicides are due to mental illness, and whilst i appreciate this is a factor in most, one which is financially driven are people who cannot face something that's happened or something they have done for them to be financially broken...and for me, i find this selfish, and in this instance i would say that yes, if your business has gone under and you owe thousands and you have not a bean to your name...you can definitely pick yourself back up off the floor...you just lose some of your pride. Hmmm....anyone who takes their own life is suffering from Mental Illness. A lot of people go through severe hardship, tragedy and emotional ruin in their lifetime. Most do not take their own life. Most mental health issues stem from hormonal imbalance, isolation, previous abuse, addiction, and lack of self worth. Particularly with hormonal or chemical imbalance, most people are unaware they even have this condition. They just go through life, unable ''to dust themselves off''. Unable to function like normal people. Unable to sleep, unable to stay awake. The list goes on. Selfish? I don't think that even enters their mind. Because that would be too straight forward. Severe depression is a very complex illness, rarely caused by one event. It's an underlying condition in most people. And they simply cannot ''manage'' these events like most folk can. Every time I go to a suicide victim, it always crosses my mind, of the sheer willpower and ''guts'' it takes to die on your own by your own hand. Can you imagine the desperation and loneliness that they feel in their last moments? You talk about how unfair it is that people die from terminal illness, when they have no choice? Mental Illness is a disease as well. And most people feel they have no choice. And if it were as simple as going to talk to someone, then I wouldn't still be cutting people down from ropes after 14 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Suicide should be allowed to anyone if they want it, we put animals down when they are dying, why not people if they want. Do you refer to folk in pallative care or a person who has just given up on life? Suicide on demand. There is a world of difference. The latter of course because no matter how low the person is feeling at that moment such low's do not last. In time,perhaps not tomorrow or the next day ...but there will be a time the cloud lifts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Do you refer to folk in pallative care or a person who has just given up on life? Suicide on demand. There is a world of difference. The latter of course because no matter how low the person is feeling at that moment such low's do not last. In time,perhaps not tomorrow or the next day ...but there will be a time the cloud lifts.... Sometimes only briefly. I'm not ashamed to admit, (I was at one time) that the thought crosses my mind at frequent intervals even though I appear relatively happy and have a good life.................it's almost as if it's a learned bahviour that I haven't been able to shrug off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyay1 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 oh for gods sake. that's it pb you are being hidden, you ruin this forum. unfortunaty i will see your quoted comments in those who respond to you , i hope they don't quote you in future. suicide is no joking matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 A further thought for those who think it's a selfish act: How many suicides are undertaken because the person has no self worth/feels unloved/feels as though they are a burden on others. They may commit the act as an only way to relieve their loved ones of the burden that they preceive they have inflicted on others.................IMHO/E, that it a totally un-selfish act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest26012 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Agree, and lets not only feel sorry for the people who commit suicide....lets remember the people they leave behind who have a life sentence. You had to throw the line in about not felling sorry for people who commit suicide, hang your head in shame and hope you're never in that unfortunate, devastating, tragic, unselfish position! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyay1 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest26012 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 You had to throw the line in about not felling sorry for people who commit suicide, hang your head in shame and hope you're never in that unfortunate, devastating, tragic, unselfish position! No sorry pb, misread the lines you wrote. Yes let's feel empathy for all those involved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest16631 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 You had to throw the line in about not felling sorry for people who commit suicide, hang your head in shame and hope you're never in that unfortunate, devastating, tragic, unselfish position! .............I think I misread PB's post then...........I presumed he meant not only feeling sorry for those gone ,but those left behind ........as well..........ie both deserved sympathy..........I even thought he had decided to show some compassion............ ..........hopefully he will clear this up............I even added to his reputation on my perceived understanding........! .........missed your post mad cow........! ..........glad he does have a good side.............show it more often...PB.....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest79615 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 The people that are left behind do suffer terribly too, i know a young girl who watched her mum attempt suicide so many times, she tried it at school, she was only 10... And the mum who is ravaged by a guilt and despair she never recovers from when told her son took his own life..i cant imagine what that must be like..or I've known grown up children to not forgive parents for attempting suicide and never speak to them again if they survive as they feel so let down and angry. I'm so intrigued by everyone discussing this, its usually a topic avoided..round my way anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I'm so intrigued by everyone discussing this, its usually a topic avoided..round my way anyway! Probably goes to show that those who are discussing, are comfortable with expressing with most other PIO members. Speaks a lot for the PIO community (in some ways) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Pom Queen Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I think there are a few types of suicide. 1) You have people who have health problems which they know eventually they are going to be a strain on their family or are going to die in pain 2) You have people who maybe their partner has died or been given ex amount of time left and they can't live without them 3) You have people who have severe stress in their life, ie debt, work load etc who eventually snap and see it as their only way out 4) And then you have people who do have mental health issues, severe depression etc I think people in 2 and 3 can be helped with support and counseling, I feel those in 1) should be able to end their life if that's best for them and Catergory 4 I am sure there are people on here who can help me with this one as I haven't come across it although I am not one for telling people to pull themselves together, I think it is the most hurtful thing you can say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 oh for gods sake. that's it pb you are being hidden, you ruin this forum. unfortunaty i will see your quoted comments in those who respond to you , i hope they don't quote you in future. suicide is no joking matter It can be, anything in life can be taken up by comedians, blokes in pubs kids in schools, thank god we are like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 i feel it is the ultimate act of a desperately selfish person. there are people who for whatever reason cannot vocalise themselves effectively. they find their only way to influence and control those around them is with hard emotions like forcing guilt on people. and attempted suicide is a great weapon. its just now and then it goes wrong. this obviously isnt true of all suicides. but every person ive heard of who attempted it, clearly falls into the above. including the one who made it. and as such i find it hard to feel for them. i feel incredibly sad for the people they affect with their death, they will likely blame themselves for the rest of their lives. (the seed of guilt was likely sewn by the corpse well before the act) suicide is usually the ultimate act of hate aimed at the ones most vulnerable to it. and for that i will joke, laugh at, and hate the corpse. and i have nothing but compassion and sympathy for those left behind. When a person is against a brick wall with the walls slowly moving in to crush that person as well as the roof closing in ...it is far from a sefish act. It is an act of desperation. Perhaps a final act in an attempt to take control of a life where no solution or hope of repair to whatever self destructive, dark thoughts prevail.....I view it is a loss of will and hope to see a way out of a dense and intense fog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Hmmm....anyone who takes their own life is suffering from Mental Illness. A lot of people go through severe hardship, tragedy and emotional ruin in their lifetime. Most do not take their own life. Most mental health issues stem from hormonal imbalance, isolation, previous abuse, addiction, and lack of self worth. Particularly with hormonal or chemical imbalance, most people are unaware they even have this condition. They just go through life, unable ''to dust themselves off''. Unable to function like normal people. Unable to sleep, unable to stay awake. The list goes on. Selfish? I don't think that even enters their mind. Because that would be too straight forward. Severe depression is a very complex illness, rarely caused by one event. It's an underlying condition in most people. And they simply cannot ''manage'' these events like most folk can. Every time I go to a suicide victim, it always crosses my mind, of the sheer willpower and ''guts'' it takes to die on your own by your own hand. Can you imagine the desperation and loneliness that they feel in their last moments? You talk about how unfair it is that people die from terminal illness, when they have no choice? Mental Illness is a disease as well. And most people feel they have no choice. And if it were as simple as going to talk to someone, then I wouldn't still be cutting people down from ropes after 14 years. Just reading through various posts on this thread, and I cannot understand when someone posts a thread for discussion on this forum, people's opinions are always met with such objection even if they are simply saying how they feel or think about something. I appreciate and accept other people's opinions, it'd be nice to be able to post what you feel without people jumping down your throat and trying to persuade you otherwise or prove their opinion to be the right one, when on a topic like this, the opinions will be diverse and controversial, but i feel no one's opinion should be dismissed as right or wrong. I feel that financially driven suicide is selfish (from my point of view) and that it is not always down to mental illness but more despair and the reason i use the word pride, is because i have dealt with a number of people in recent years who have attempted suicide when their business has gone into administration and they feel the pressure of their family/friends to live upto a persona they have always had, living the champagne lifestyle. Then when they are faced with no means to pay for next weeks shopping bill or their car or home gets repossessed they choose to end their life feeling it is the only way out, leaving those they love to deal with the consequences. I understand that people are driven to attempt suicide for a lot of reasons, no two cases are the same, but largely in my experience, people who have survived suicide attempts have almost always regretted it and admitted they did it out of anger, attention, hurt, despair or pride when it has been a financially driven attempt. Most surprisingly they have admitted very little thought went into it before they did it. I disagree that financially driven suicide is in any way brave but rather the opposite and cowardess but i understand what you mean when you say the willpoower and guts as i could never imagine being in that situation & i guess would never know the amount of successful suicides that people have immediately regretted but it's been too late to turn back. In terms of mental illness and terminal illness... i have people in my life who have suffered with mental illness so i am fully aware of the impacts it has on their life and those around them, but in most cases mental illness isn't a death sentence and in this particular topic i am talking about financially driven suicide nothing more. When you're diagnosed with terminal cancer and then someone healthy willingly takes their own life leaving a trail of devastation behind them, you cannot help but feel that it isn't fair. But such is life! My opinion is a very personal one, for personal reasons, doesn't make it a right or wrong one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moirclan Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 some one taking their own life , its sorrowful that some one can see absoloutly no light at the end of the tunnel and they feel their only recourse is to put an end to it , im sure that when going through this they dont feel particularly " selfish " they proberly think they are doing every one around them a favour and to be honest it must be horrific to be in such a state of mind , even people who do it for financial reasons , have a form of depression , by the time they do it they proberly have had phone calls from debt collectors at all the times of the day and night , threatening letters etc etc . i think you get past the thought that they were selfish , sure you do go through that stage , but you move past that to anger , so much anger its terrible , to the stage of wondering what you missed there should have been more signs , on to the " what about me stage how could you leave me , then on to the acceptance of the situation , and all the while wondering the " why of it all " until you come up with some sort of reason behind it all that works for you whether its correct or not , i cant condem any one for taking their own life , to be in such a state with no hope !!! regardless of the reasons behind it , its horrific , i got of my high horse a l while ago , life has a habit of doing that to you , with what it dishes out before you , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name=moirclan;1936098385 i cant condem any one for taking their own life ' date=' to be in such a state with no hope !!! regardless of the reasons behind it , its horrific , i got of my high horse a l while ago , life has a habit of doing that to you , with what it dishes out before you ,[/quote] Which only goes to illustrate your "humanity". Anyone who does condemn, IMHO. must lead a purely "clinical" life. I feel as sorry for them as I do for those who contemplate suicide..................there but for the Grace of God..................but those who elevate themselves to a Divine level, to stand in judgement, surely are blessed? :goofy: May they never walk in another man's shoes for fear they awaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest16631 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 .............I have only compassion for those that feel they need to take their own lives................and for those that are left behind.... .............but I don't condemn those who feel its a selfish act.............for them .....the contemplation of not only the act........but of leaving others behind.........is abhorrent a thought ..........to them...... ........as they are to those who feel compassion...... ...........it's these complexities of our thoughts that make us who we are............all individuals........with different experiences in life....and different views............ ............a lot of grey areas in this debate.........a lot of circumstances that alter the end view..... ............as had been said........unless we walk in the skin of someone going through ,suicidal thoughts..........for what ever reason...........we cannot be sure 100% .........of how we would feel........... ..............so all the opinions are right.........ATM......for each individual........... ............depression is no respecter of age ,creed.........religion.......rich or poor..............the black dog will be faithful to any.......... ..............so however we view those unfortunate to be in this position...........perhaps the acknowledgement that the person is less fortunate than themselves...........is a given..........and wether suicide is thought to be .....a .right or a wrong .........I am sure none of us lucky enough not to be in this position...............agrees that they certainly hope they never experience it........tink x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Just reading through various posts on this thread, and I cannot understand when someone posts a thread for discussion on this forum, people's opinions are always met with such objection even if they are simply saying how they feel or think about something. I appreciate and accept other people's opinions, it'd be nice to be able to post what you feel without people jumping down your throat and trying to persuade you otherwise or prove their opinion to be the right one, when on a topic like this, the opinions will be diverse and controversial, but i feel no one's opinion should be dismissed as right or wrong. I feel that financially driven suicide is selfish (from my point of view) and that it is not always down to mental illness but more despair and the reason i use the word pride, is because i have dealt with a number of people in recent years who have attempted suicide when their business has gone into administration and they feel the pressure of their family/friends to live upto a persona they have always had, living the champagne lifestyle. Then when they are faced with no means to pay for next weeks shopping bill or their car or home gets repossessed they choose to end their life feeling it is the only way out, leaving those they love to deal with the consequences. I understand that people are driven to attempt suicide for a lot of reasons, no two cases are the same, but largely in my experience, people who have survived suicide attempts have almost always regretted it and admitted they did it out of anger, attention, hurt, despair or pride when it has been a financially driven attempt. Most surprisingly they have admitted very little thought went into it before they did it. I disagree that financially driven suicide is in any way brave but rather the opposite and cowardess but i understand what you mean when you say the willpoower and guts as i could never imagine being in that situation & i guess would never know the amount of successful suicides that people have immediately regretted but it's been too late to turn back. In terms of mental illness and terminal illness... i have people in my life who have suffered with mental illness so i am fully aware of the impacts it has on their life and those around them, but in most cases mental illness isn't a death sentence and in this particular topic i am talking about financially driven suicide nothing more. When you're diagnosed with terminal cancer and then someone healthy willingly takes their own life leaving a trail of devastation behind them, you cannot help but feel that it isn't fair. But such is life! My opinion is a very personal one, for personal reasons, doesn't make it a right or wrong one! Firstly, I have not ''jumped down'' anyone's throat. I spend most of my days jumping due to being vertically challenged but I simply wouldn't fit into someone's throat, having eaten too many Macca's. Secondly, this is a forum and this is a discussion/debate about a topic. If I post here, it is a given that I will get differing opinions. I like that. It's fun. And I've got broad shoulders, so I don't lose sleep over it. It's expected that not everyone will agree with you. Suicide is suicide. I don't believe you can differentiate between any suicide because of the drive behind it. It just isn't as simple as that in my opinion. Yes, financial ruin may be the straw that broke the camel's back, but I think, had these people not faced financial ruin, it would have been something else. I think their life choice would have been the same eventually, regardless of what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 There was also a study done in the U.S. around 4 years ago. It tested post mortem hormonal levels in Suicide victims, who had shown no previous signs of depression and had gone through a massive life change i.e. death of a loved one, financial ruin, within the 2 years prior to their death. The hormone levels were checked and compared against suicide victims who had depression for several years. The study found the first group to have massively distorted hormonal levels in comparison to the 2nd group. The findings of the study were that the 1st group most probably had suffered an acute psychotic event or break down, causing them to make an irrational decision, completely out of their control. Stress releases hormones. This is well known. In times of severe stress, even a single event can cause a change in the chemical make up of the brain. Therefore, this can happen to anyone, including the people who judge financially ruined suicide victims as ''selfish. This could happen to you one day. Just some food for thought.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetbelly Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 It can be, anything in life can be taken up by comedians, blokes in pubs kids in schools, thank god we are like that. I do agree with this. I hope PB didn't get a ban. At the end of the day, he spoke his opinion and he's quite welcome to it. And I myself make jokes out of very inappropriate things. Why, because it can be very funny. But people need to remember, when it's a joke, it's a joke. Nothing more. Personally, I fully agree with missesB here on financial type of suicide relation. As it being the straw that broke the camels back. With financial stuff, it's not an overnight thing normally. People end up digging themselves into a whole. There's a whole build up of it. That can then drive then to a nervous breakdown or into depression very very easily. At the end of the day, I think this just really shows there needs to be more support out there for people. And more visible support. And GPs not just prescribing anti depressants. I've found out, the ones I was prescribed actually are known for making my condition worse. Getting GPs to send people on to psychiatrists. They're the ones trained in this and can help the medication as necessary. And you know what, counselling isn't a bad choice either. It's working for me as long as I keep on going. Yeah, might not work for everyone. But I know I'd like to get better and will try most things to get me feeling that way. I know this is the uk one, but if you're in Aus and have issues speak to your GP. If you're on a reciprocal medicare then you're also allowed access to the 10 free counselling sessions a year. Make the most of them I say if you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Harsh but with unemployment being so high is this not a good thing? I've been pretty chilled on the forum in the past few months and am chilled writing this, but I do have to say you are a complete ******* for making a comment like that. That is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 . Therefore, this can happen to anyone, including the people who judge financially ruined suicide victims as ''selfish. This could happen to you one day. Just some food for thought.... Without googling the net looking for statistics & studies to back up my comments...as I've said earlier, my opinion that financially driven suicide is selfish is my opinion...there is no need to suggest that those who do not share your view on suicide and deem it selfish, may very well end up committing suicide themselves through a physchotic episode or breakdown as I'm fully aware suicide can happen to anyone for all matter of reasons...however this doesn't change my personal opinion that it is selfish. When a person commits suicide leaving behind friends and family, those people have to live with the consequences of that person's decision for the rest of their lives, questioning why, blaming themselves...it can end up defining who they are or driving them mad... that is why I think it is selfish...you're not making a choice just about your own life, you are making a choice essentially that affects all the people in your life who will then have to bear the consequences. I think there are two sides to this and although I can sympathise for those who feel they have no way out other than suicide, I empathise much more with those left behind having to re-build their lives that have been shattered with devastation & who until the day they die will continually question why & carry some guilt whether they could have seen it coming or done more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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