News about the new SOL

[sarahfrankolly]

Hi Sarah, we are heading to perth too, have you got your sponsorship yet ??

 

Hoping and praying we will be on the cat 2 list soon,

Good luck to you too.

Tina

Hi Tina,

 

Yep we have we got it in Feb just like you and we applied in Novemeber 09 for our Visa so slightly after you .... no co yet, have you?

 

I am soooo looking forward to the 1st when things should start moving again but no doubt the goal posts will prob change again but trying to remain positive hard not to what with the lovely weather we are having

 

keep us posted xx

[Guest pippa1]

Hi there

 

I applied Dec 08 and unfortunately unless anything changes in the near future, I think we are in for a long wait....

 

I have come to the conclusion that nobody really knows, including those that set the policies in the first place! The figures just don't add up to me, so I've given up trying to analyse anything.

 

Good luck with everything...

 

FWIW: Everyone else seems to find a quicker way in...so make sure you have explored every possibility before settling for Cat 6 !

[Guest Kiraloo]

I agree with you, and I hope you find PR at the end of your journey. I'm an international student paying over $75,000 to the University for my degree. Hopefully at the end (another 2.5 years to go) my degree will still be on the SOL, however, that is the risk we chose to take whilst in the UK.

 

Again, I find it hard to believe that they are happy to accept applications from abroad, however, us students that are paying massive amounts of $$$$ into the system, and are being qualified to Australian standards are, as it appears to me just a 'cash cow' for the country.

 

Good luck for your future

 

Steph

xxxx

 

Steph,

 

Thanks for your kind words, they are most appreciated.

 

You would think that an Australian qualification should be the most relevant and appropriate for finding employment in OZ. My Diploma is not accepted in my home country but I was hoping to go to Uni in Australia and study psychology or do my bachelor in social work.

 

If an application is from an English speaking country it should certainly be accepted if it is relevant and fits all the criteria that's needed.

 

There is no way I can afford to fork out on $60 000 + to do this..unless I had permanent residency ( the Uni fees would then drop quite sicnificantly).

 

So many people affected by the recent changes around me have a very uncertain future ahead of them. I'm sick and tired of being told not to worry from our International Student Advisor - of course all of us have every reason to worry.

But there might not be an International Srudent Advisor next term - so who should be really worried?!:err:

 

I think the TAFE's and other education providers will be faced with empty classes next term and many staff members may lose their jobs.

 

Regards

[Purple Princess]

I agree with you, and I hope you find PR at the end of your journey. I'm an international student paying over $75,000 to the University for my degree. Hopefully at the end (another 2.5 years to go) my degree will still be on the SOL, however, that is the risk we chose to take whilst in the UK.

 

Again, I find it hard to believe that they are happy to accept applications from abroad, however, us students that are paying massive amounts of $$$$ into the system, and are being qualified to Australian standards are, as it appears to me just a 'cash cow' for the country.

 

Good luck for your future

 

Steph

xxxx

 

Steph,

 

Thanks for your kind words, they are most appreciated.

 

You would think that an Australian qualification should be the most relevant and appropriate for finding employment in OZ. My Diploma is not accepted in my home country but I was hoping to go to Uni in Australia and study psychology or do my bachelor in social work.

 

If an application is from an English speaking country it should certainly be accepted if it is relevant and fits all the criteria that's needed.

 

There is no way I can afford to fork out on $60 000 + to do this..unless I had permanent residency ( the Uni fees would then drop quite sicnificantly).

 

So many people affected by the recent changes around me have a very uncertain future ahead of them. I'm sick and tired of being told not to worry from our International Student Advisor - of course all of us have every reason to worry.

But there might not be an International Srudent Advisor next term - so who should be really worried?!:err:

 

I think the TAFE's and other education providers will be faced with empty classes next term and many staff members may lose their jobs.

 

Regards

 

Again, I agree with you, I've not spoken to the International Student Adviser at Uni, however, my first impressions at orientation is that they do not know much about visa's and what will happen in the future, they just spout out the info that DIAC has told them, although all that info is on the visa anyway, so as long as you can read, you can read your own conditions and restrictions!!!:tongue:

 

I also think DIAC don't really have a clue either, I've spoken to them on many occasions since we got here in December and they all seem to come up with different answers. I asked as to why I have to take out overseas health cover when I'm covered through medicare and they couldn't tell me why, when I said is it extra money for them, the adviser agreed and just said that it was a condition of the visa and would not cover me for any more than medicare would!!! another $700 per year on top of the fees!!! I think I'm studying for the wrong job.....

 

I will just have to wait and see what happens and then possibly look for sponsorship after graduating!!

 

Steph

xxxx

[rainyc]

Hi Tina,

 

Yep we have we got it in Feb just like you and we applied in Novemeber 09 for our Visa so slightly after you .... no co yet, have you?

 

I am soooo looking forward to the 1st when things should start moving again but no doubt the goal posts will prob change again but trying to remain positive hard not to what with the lovely weather we are having

 

keep us posted xx

Hi Sarah and Frank and baby Olly, Neil says hi to Frank, we did our medicals in April and Police Checks too in the hope that we could get looked at sooner but reckon we all gota keep fingers crossed for that SMP. I rang DIAC on Friday, spoke to realy nice lady and she said they were processing cat 4 at the moment, said they waiting for all the states to be ready with their SMPs then the minister can agree them and lists will be released but until then we are all in limbo, nitemare aint it????????!!!!!!!!!!

We off to Lanzarote for 2 weeks on Tues so hoping good news will be coming June ish.

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

luv Neil and Lorraine, Tiffany,Ryan,Chantelle,Tegan & Bailey

[sarahfrankolly]

Hi Sarah and Frank and baby Olly, Neil says hi to Frank, we did our medicals in April and Police Checks too in the hope that we could get looked at sooner but reckon we all gota keep fingers crossed for that SMP. I rang DIAC on Friday, spoke to realy nice lady and she said they were processing cat 4 at the moment, said they waiting for all the states to be ready with their SMPs then the minister can agree them and lists will be released but until then we are all in limbo, nitemare aint it????????!!!!!!!!!!

We off to Lanzarote for 2 weeks on Tues so hoping good news will be coming June ish.

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

luv Neil and Lorraine, Tiffany,Ryan,Chantelle,Tegan & Bailey

Hi Lorraine

 

Nice to get you after all this time of Frank speaking about you guys....god doesn't it seem ages ago that the boys did the vet exam.

 

That is very positive news from DIAC, thanks for the update, I think everyone is counting down the days to the 1st of July but when one of the guys on here who are very up on everything said there was over 140,000 visa backlog I was gobsmacked.

 

Just be nice to know if it is going to be months or years wouldn't it, I never realised you had such a big family unit as Frank always talked about your new addition so assumed wrongly you only had one little one, so you guys more then us just need to know what the hell we are doing with our lifes.

 

Anyhow lovely to have a nice holiday to look forward too, something positive to take your mind off all this and may the countdown beging to 1st July 38 sleeps and counting

 

Thanks for getting in contact ... keep you posted with any updates

 

Enjoy your well deserved hols

 

Sarah xx

[George Lombard]

I've confirmed with WA that they are in negotiation with DIAC - given the ongoing skills shortages there - and very much hope to have the first operational SMP approved by 1 July. That being said, it does strike me as premature to be pushing on individual occupations on any personal basis: the best - and possibly only - lobbying mechanism will be through employer bodies requiring particular skills in a relevant state.

 

Good luck to all!

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

[Guest Kiraloo]

 

Again, I agree with you, I've not spoken to the International Student Adviser at Uni, however, my first impressions at orientation is that they do not know much about visa's and what will happen in the future, they just spout out the info that DIAC has told them, although all that info is on the visa anyway, so as long as you can read, you can read your own conditions and restrictions!!!:tongue:

 

I also think DIAC don't really have a clue either, I've spoken to them on many occasions since we got here in December and they all seem to come up with different answers. I asked as to why I have to take out overseas health cover when I'm covered through medicare and they couldn't tell me why, when I said is it extra money for them, the adviser agreed and just said that it was a condition of the visa and would not cover me for any more than medicare would!!! another $700 per year on top of the fees!!! I think I'm studying for the wrong job.....

 

I will just have to wait and see what happens and then possibly look for sponsorship after graduating!!

 

Steph

xxxx

 

Yes, same story here...an outreach officer from DIAC conducted a meeting for International students at the end of last year at TAFE to give students the opportunity to ask questions related to immigration.

 

The whole session was a complete waste of time; the guy from DIAC could not answer quite a few straightforward closed questions and appeared somewhat unprepared. He kept referring to DIAC's website over and over again when he failed to deliver an answer.

The thing that annoyed me the most though was that this guy managed to keep grinning throughout the whole session...most students did not think it was that funny after all.

 

There is another session planned sometime soon, I seriously doubt that anything productive will come out of it.

 

I am so grateful for this forum which allows people to share information and experience.:hug:

 

Regards

[jools123]

I've confirmed with WA that they are in negotiation with DIAC - given the ongoing skills shortages there - and very much hope to have the first operational SMP approved by 1 July. That being said, it does strike me as premature to be pushing on individual occupations on any personal basis: the best - and possibly only - lobbying mechanism will be through employer bodies requiring particular skills in a relevant state.

 

Good luck to all!

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

gill posted that wa had not put hairdressing on their smp draft (which i cant understand when there seems to be jobs advertised) can you please tell me where this leaves me 175 applied in oct 09 wa ss obtained in may 10.

if anouther state has this on their list would we be able to apply even though we have wa ss.

i feel like i am going to be continually at the end of a long que

and then chop:arghh:

jools x

[George Lombard]

Hi Jools,

 

Anyone who already has a visa application lodged and has been granted state sponsorship is ok.

All this discussion is about the poor sods who are waiting to get to that point.

 

On the hairdresser issue I called WA precisely about that, and they denied even the content of Gill's post. It's quite a sensitive negotiation and whoever released such information to Gill might not have the interests of applicants at heart, particularly if negotiations break down due to inopportune comment. Just have to wait and see.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

[SHANO7]

gill posted that wa had not put hairdressing on their smp draft (which i cant understand when there seems to be jobs advertised) can you please tell me where this leaves me 175 applied in oct 09 wa ss obtained in may 10.

if anouther state has this on their list would we be able to apply even though we have wa ss.

i feel like i am going to be continually at the end of a long que

and then chop:arghh:

jools x

 

Hi Jools

 

I dont know about you but Im getting very cheesed off with how Hairdressers are being treated.

 

Im no chef but I can cook a mean spag bol but if you put a a pair of scissors in my hand and asked me to cut an inverted bob i'd be shafted x

 

Shane x

[Guest paulandtara]

gill posted that wa had not put hairdressing on their smp draft (which i cant understand when there seems to be jobs advertised) can you please tell me where this leaves me 175 applied in oct 09 wa ss obtained in may 10.

if anouther state has this on their list would we be able to apply even though we have wa ss.

i feel like i am going to be continually at the end of a long que

and then chop:arghh:

jools x

 

Jools we are in exactly the same position, we have WA SS but if hairdressers aren't on the SMP then what's the point in having it really, there will be so many people in front of us that our case won't get seen for years.

It looks like unless one of the other states puts it on their list then our application is effectively over.

[SHANO7]

Hi Jools,

 

Anyone who already has a visa application lodged and has been granted state sponsorship is ok.

All this discussion is about the poor sods who are waiting to get to that point.

 

On the hairdresser issue I called WA precisely about that, and they denied even the content of Gill's post. It's quite a sensitive negotiation and whoever released such information to Gill might not have the interests of applicants at heart, particularly if negotiations break down due to inopportune comment. Just have to wait and see.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

 

Morning George

 

In you opinion would it seem strange for WA to sponsor hairdressers very receently ( my wife & Jools etc) only the to not push to include on SMP.

 

Our fear is that SMp excludes the trade and we have to wait another 3 years !!

 

Thanks

Shane

[George Lombard]

Hi Shane,

 

Hard to say.

 

I think the real problem for genuine hairdressers working overseas is that they've tried to fast track the injection of a cohort of overseas students in the labour market here and have failed miserably. Unfortunately, to be fair to those students who are still continuing, there is a guarantee of a massive oversupply of graduates until 2012 .

 

But whatever an SMP contains in terms of ongoing occupations and applications, I don't think they will involve any adverse consequences for current applicants, and in fact I think some states will insist that family sponsored applicants also get treated fairly. But DIAC has to agree to each SMP, and it is an election year, so best to be patient and wait for hard copy documentation.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

[Guest bcfrug]

Hi George,

I hope you dont mind me picking your brain and thoughts.

I have lodged my State Sponsership to WA on Nov 04th 2009. It should be due this week according to timelines. My occupation isnt on the new SOL. If my occupation is on the new SMP would i be moved from Cat 5 to Cat 2. I lodged my visa application in 25Mar2010. Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

TRA Lodged 01 Oct 09...TRA Granted 03 Nov 09.....State Sponsership WA lodged 04 Nov 09....176 Visa Lodged 25Mar2010...Waiting Waiting Waiting

[Guest rachbarlow]

Thanks Gill!

 

Lets just hope and pray that Cabinetmaker is on there............afterall it is a state wide demand........ I have totally had enough over the past 3 1/2 years of being messed around. It is about time we had some good luck.

 

If you get any inside info on cabinetmaker......... it would be really appreciated!

[jools123]

george thanks for your quick reply and insight........

 

shane im well peed off with the whole thing, and my hubbie wont listen to a word i say as one minute ive read good news second later its bad:arghh:

no disrespect to onshore student hairdressers but it takes more than a quick course to learn how to be a good hairdresser and work on your own, you need constant ongoing support from senior experienced stylists.

 

when we get there and we will its all round to shanes for his mean spag bol (outside of course):yes:

jools x

[Guest gerryp]

Just read this on Australian Visa Bureau's website...apologies if this isnt the correct thread to post to guys :-)

 

The announcement made last week that Australian immigration will be switching to the ANZSCO skills classification on 1 July, 2010 is an issue set to have a huge impact on the General Skilled Migration (GSM) program, as it essentially redefines the occupations and skills that are in demand by Australia.

We've been investigating the impact of the changes through speaking to the skills assessing bodies who will also be affected by this change. The latest comments we've seen have come from the Australian Computer Society (ACS), who provided the following information:

"

Applicants who hold, or are about to hold, an assessment outcome letter with an ASCO code issued by the ACS prior to 1 July 2010, are advised to apply for a review of assessment outcome and follow application for review process that will be publicised on the ACS website once the framework, in which new SOL would be applied, is introduced by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC).

 

• Up to and including 30 June 2010, assessment outcome letters will be issued in ASCO codes only.
• From and including 1 July 2010, assessment outcome letters will be issued in ANZSCO codes only."
  
  

 

In many ways, ACS is the assessing body that we most wanted to hear comment on the changes as many of the ASCO computing professional occupations they currently assess do not have a direct match on ANZSCO.

As a result, if an applicant has previously completed an assessment with ACS but was unable to lodge their Australian visa application before the GSM program was temporarily suspended, it will be advisable for these applicants to apply for a "review of assessment outcome and follow application for review process".

Further details aren't yet available as to how this review process will work or how long it will take, but more information is expected to be made available on the ACS website soon.

[George Lombard]

Hi Gerry,

 

Yes, but no point applying to ACS for a review until we know what the new SOL will look like, and, importantly, which occupations ACS is responsible for assessing. At which time the ACS and DIAC may have reached an agreement about the transitional arrangements - similar to what Engineers Australia has already announced - so that not everyone needs a review.

 

There has been substantial consideration on other forums of how the ACS correlation will work in practice, not so much relevant discussion here. But taken at face value, the decision has been to remove all DBAs, Web Developers, IT Security and Network people from the list (as well as minor occupations such as IT testers and all varieties of IT academics). Given that some states still have an evident need for specialised IT skills we may not know the full picture until all the SMPs are in.

 

I am sure there will be nothing further on the ACS website until the new SOL is formally gazetted, since until then their hands are tied.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

[Guest gerryp]

Hi George,

 

many thanks for that...yes, that makes lots of sense. I have to say - like everyone else Im sure - my head is spinning. I lodged 176 on Feb 12 with Qld SS under 2231-79 Oracle. My reading of all the posts leads me to contradictory conclusions. One being that I will be processed under the "rules" as in place at time I lodged and my other reading is that Im not on SOL now so Im dependent on what falls out of the SMP. So when I read this article my immediate thought was I would have to be reassessed and hope my reassessment places me on the SOL. Is that a correct reading of it George?

 

Kind Regards

 

Gerry

[George Lombard]

Hi Gerry,

 

Oracle = DBA or Oracle = developer ? That will be the real dilemma for IT people applying under the new SOL (unless of course the new SOL is changed by the time it is finally promulgated). And I am confident that life is too short to train every single ASPC case officer in the nuances of web developer vs .Net developer, for example.

 

But I think that people who already have applications and state sponsorship can regard their applications as protected. South Australia has already given such an indication - by facilitating sponsorship applications only for people who have already lodged applications - and others will no doubt do the same.

 

And Gerry as you have both state sponsorship and a validly lodged application I can see no reason for you to get a new skills assessment unless also planning to lodge a new visa application.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Hi Jools,

 

Anyone who already has a visa application lodged and has been granted state sponsorship is ok.

All this discussion is about the poor sods who are waiting to get to that point.

 

On the hairdresser issue I called WA precisely about that, and they denied even the content of Gill's post. It's quite a sensitive negotiation and whoever released such information to Gill might not have the interests of applicants at heart, particularly if negotiations break down due to inopportune comment. Just have to wait and see.

 

Cheers,

 

George Lombard

 

Hi George

 

One of your migration agent colleagues told me what I said on here. The fact is that - whether WA SMC like it or not - the WA draft State Migration Plan is already in the public domain because it is already doing the rounds between members of the Migration Institute of Australia.

 

That the MIA members think there is anything so "special" about themselves that they can have possession of this document but can refuse to divulge anything to anybody who has chosen not to pay for the services of an MIA member - in the case of RachBarlow because of the fact that the last RMA she spent any money on vanished with her money but without doing a thing in return for it - is a total disgrace, would you not say?

 

Whoever leaked the thing at WA SMC's end might get the sack for doing so but it is up to WA SMC Manager to find out who leaked it at their end. I've no idea who he might be looking for - I have not been told that bit - but I expect that the Manager can soon find out. The information that I was given arrived in an e-mail from an MIA member over the weekend. I was told that my informer expected the draft to reach him or her on Monday (today.) My informer said that the draft would be forwarded to me for publication on Poms in Oz if I wished to put it onto the public forum.

 

I replied saying that I would be interested to see the draft but that I would be reluctant to put it onto the public focum when it is only a draft that has not yet been approved on behalf of the Minister for Immi. Howeevr I would definitely have the interests of visa applicants at heart - and nobody else's interests at heart - if I told individual enquirers, "Yes, your occupation is on the first draft but do remember that it is ONLY a first draft. It might be removed from a draft, so you still need to keep a close eye on developments."

 

As for your own comment:

whoever released such information to Gill might not have the interests of applicants at heart,

 

The person who released the information to me is a practicisng migration agent and a Member of the private members' club which is run by the MIA. I am interested to hear that the members of such a supposedly august body might not have the visa applicants' interests at heart. Whose interests is a migration agent supposed to serve, George? Only his own, I presume, from what you have chosen to say? At the expense of visa applicants, definitely, for the enrichment of the MIA member concerned, certainly, but apparently a member of the MIA might well not be acting in the best interests of the visa applicants, according to you. Some of your fellow MIA members are just plain irresponsible, are they?

 

Furthermore, George, I knew from the e-mail sent to me that allegedly Hairdressers are not on the new SMP. According to you, WA "deny" that this is true. Let us wait and see whilst we get to the bottom of the draft which is apparently now being confined to MIA members only but which seems to be doing the rounds of the MIA members, shall we? .

 

A further e-mail today informs me that the migration agent who told me all of the above now has the document but has promised not to divulge its contents. In short, members of the MIA are behaving like a bunch of toddlers would behave over a new toy, in my opinion.

 

The SMC can deny the truth all they like. I can forward the e-mails to their own Manager, to Sue Harcus at WAGO UK and to David Wilden at DIAC if you and the MIA both wish. I can also phone the Manager of the WA SMC tonight (UK time) to confirm that I have sent the e-mails, which prove that I certainly haven't said one word on this forum that has not come from a reliable source and if the MIA is so unreliable that its members are un-trustworthy rubbish then what is the point of the MIA in the first place? Helping members of the public certainly is not one of its goals to judge from the nonsense that I find myself dealing with this afternoon, frankly. If somebody at the WA SMC gave something to an MIA member in confidence, then WA SMC and the WA State Government and DIAC might as well all know that the average colander has fewer holes in it than the membership of the MIA, it seems to me.

 

The fact is that the document is in the public domain, whether the WA SMC like it or not, whether DIAC like it or not and whether the MIA like it or not. It is in the public domain because at least 2 members of the MIA now have copies of the thing, so I am told.

 

If you choose to impugn my integrity on a public forum, George, both you and the MIA can have some of that straight back via the WA SMC, the WA State Government and via DIAC if you so wish.

 

Otherwise, get real and start telling the truth, I firmly suggest. Have you seen this draft document or not?

 

If you have seen it, what in the world is supposed to be secret about it?

 

Cheers

 

Gill

[Guest gerryp]

Hi George,

 

again many thanks. That is one of the most crystal clear explanations Ive seen describing my circumstances (which Im sure are shared by a fair proportion of IT people currently classified 2231-79 that cant find a direct match on the ANZSCO tables). I'll sit tight and see what the next 6 weeks brings - hopefuly some clarity, but I wont be shocked if it's yet more fog:biggrin:

 

Thank you kindly George.

 

Kind Regards

 

Gerry

[Alan Collett]

A completely over the top response from Gill, if I might say ...

 

Onwards!

[Guest Gollywobbler]

Just read this on Australian Visa Bureau's website...apologies if this isnt the correct thread to post to guys :-)

 

by Lauren 24/05/2010 11:26:00

The announcement made last week that Australian immigration will be switching to the ANZSCO skills classification on 1 July, 2010 is an issue set to have a huge impact on the General Skilled Migration (GSM) program, as it essentially redefines the occupations and skills that are in demand by Australia.

We've been investigating the impact of the changes through speaking to the skills assessing bodies who will also be affected by this change. The latest comments we've seen have come from the Australian Computer Society (ACS), who provided the following information:

 

"

Applicants who hold, or are about to hold, an assessment outcome letter with an ASCO code issued by the ACS prior to 1 July 2010, are advised to apply for a review of assessment outcome and follow application for review process that will be publicised on the ACS website once the framework, in which new SOL would be applied, is introduced by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC).

 

• Up to and including 30 June 2010, assessment outcome letters will be issued in ASCO codes only.

• From and including 1 July 2010, assessment outcome letters will be issued in ANZSCO codes only."

 

In many ways, ACS is the assessing body that we most wanted to hear comment on the changes as many of the ASCO computing professional occupations they currently assess do not have a direct match on ANZSCO.

As a result, if an applicant has previously completed an assessment with ACS but was unable to lodge their Australian visa application before the GSM program was temporarily suspended, it will be advisable for these applicants to apply for a "review of assessment outcome and follow application for review process".

Further details aren't yet available as to how this review process will work or how long it will take, but more information is expected to be made available on the ACS website soon.

- Lauren Mennie is Casework Department Manager for the Australian Visa Bureau.

 

Hi gerry

 

Thanks very much for the above.

 

I note that the ACS and Lauren Mennie are suspiciously silent about whether or not this "review process" will be free of charge or whether visa applicants are to be expected to stump up even more of their money for one of these "reviews."

 

Immigration to Australia is a complete cash cow for everybody involved with it, with the few exceptions such as the IARC who do not charge prospective visa applicants anything.

 

It will be interesting to see what the ACS say about costs.

 

It will be equally interesting to see whether any migration agents who are both registered with the MARA and are members of the MIA try to charge anything extra for getting involved with the proposed "review process" on behalf of their clients - the cash cows known as the wannabe migrants to Oz.

 

I would suggest that the Australian Government had better pay the fees that ACS might want to charge for undertaking a review process. Otherwise, the MIA might like to pay the fees on behalf of every RMA member of theirs who has chosen to keep his or her cash-flows healthy via enouraging gullible cash cows to get involved with the migration game at all when all of the RMAs have known full well - ever since 8th February 2010 - just how uncertain the whole thing had become by the time they were busily doing the encouraging.

 

I trust that all of them will have the decency and the integrity not to dare to charge any of their clients any extra money at all for having dragged their IT clients into this situation.

 

Cheers

 

Gill