How Long before you realised that Australia was or was not the place that you wanted to spend the rest of your days ?

[MARYROSE02]

18 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Different people have different aspirations.  I didn't come to Australia for a house on a beach with sun.   

Did you come for the theatre and opera?

[MARYROSE02]

On 08/12/2021 at 07:36, Robert Dyson said:

There is something to be said for creativity and personality being stimulated from difficult circumstance, hardship and desperation.  Treat em mean, keep 'em keen.  Australia doesn't have as much of that as the UK does, but it's been cultural and economic policy in the UK for years to try and drive efficiencies through the class system.  From that comes humour, character and personality as a defence mechanism.   It's no secret that Liverpudlians are known for their humour, but it doesn't come from everybody being rich and living in comfort....it's been a mechanism to cope with life.   

The London Olympic's opening ceremony was perhaps the best description of British life I've ever seen, no other country on earth could have produced a demonstration of historical culture like that, but most of it came from ordinary people's creativity, experimentation and invention.

The UK, certainly the music industry, isn't mostly populated by rich kids with the luxury to make a choice, it's dominated by people who had nothing at all and had to fight for everything they've had.  Australia could never produce a Sex Pistols or a Beatles, because there is no cultural base born out of deprivation to enrich it.

Australia is a wealthy country and people are overall, far more comfortable and secure than counterparts in the UK.   It does lead to a sanitised, dull as dishwater atmosphere at times, because there is nothing really pressing that needs worrying about.  Australians are generally well provided for, their societies are not overridden with crime, the provisioning for public spaces and facilities is generally excellent.  They do not have much to complain about at all.  That can actually become very boring and less stimulating than developing your character in much more difficult circumstances in the UK.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, someone was just telling me that certain suburbs in certain cities are crime-ridden but I don't think he was suggesting, as you are, that living in those suburbs is stimulating and takes you out of boredom and a "dull as dishwater" atmosphere.

[MARYROSE02]

10 hours ago, Bulya said:

The parochialism was very apparent when I joined the military in ‘70.  WA recruits were just so ‘different’ than those from the other states/territories.  

I find it hard to believe that the rest of the Australian cricket team in the early 1970's regarded Dennis Lillee and Rod Marsh as "different" from them because they came from WA.

[MARYROSE02]

16 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

It's Perth where I live so I'll leave the commentary on other cities alone,. While they may be all Aussies to you, different make up's makes Perth differ substantially from Perth. It's isolationist position has seen a parochialism develop here , I would argue to a far greater extent than Sydney, for example, the centre for international tourism and immigration. 

Obviously if one lived for the arts, there are cities far better than Sydney. One just needs to look at Time Out in Sydney at the thinness   of it compared to London. Or Paris where the arts feature in conversation and activity in so many peoples minds.

Applecross is very expensive. Aussies are very conscious of class I find. Not necessary in the way of talking but judgement on material possessions and postcodes rather much more than too often credited for. Applecross and like suburbs are rather convinced of their position in the pecking order . Next you'll be saying Australia is classless and egalitarian. I', afraid 1950's Australia has long disappeared from the rear vision mirror. This society is increasingly about money above all else. 

South Perth is a small, although pleasant enough strip . I was in the Windsor about six weeks ago. The Windsor is fine as it goes , but wouldn't be taking the ferry across too regularly. It would soon be old hat. 

You write Scarborough. We were there last night for drinks and meal at a local beachside pub. The evening was close to 40 degrees. Thankfully the wind was not an issue. The pub was full of miner types , nearly all men , but the beach environs was good with a fine example of how cosmopolitan Perth is becoming. 

Subi has declined over recent years. Most will agree on that. Northbridge, being a major centre for entertainment in Perth, attracts a lot of less desirable types, with a reputation for violence , a lot of drug activity. We are one of the biggest methamphetamine users in the world. 

No I would say Leederville, would be a closer match to Surry Hills than Northbridge. Though I obviously see how you may connect the two. Then again I've no idea how Surry Hills is late at night. It may be closer than I'm aware. 

Surfers does have a bad rap. Never been but heard some bad stories around corruption and crime. 

The way you have described Applecross, or at least the "posh" part, could apply to anywhere in Australia. What does "very expensive" mean anyway? Very expensive compared to where? I Googled the median house price and I see it is just below 2 million dollars for a house and around 600,000 dollars for a unit. I looked up Surry Hills to compare it and the house prices are about the same but the unit price median is much higher in Surry HIlls. Whether you can compare the two suburbs is another matter. Surry HIlls is in the inner city whereas Applecross is a few kilometres south on the water. I don't know whether you could get a similar house in a similar location in Sydney for the price of one of those mansions in Applecross.

From the way that you describe parts of Perth you sound somewhat "snobby" yourself - Windsor Hotel would soon be old hat? Scarborough full of miners? I seem to recall a similar comment about meeting fellow Pommies to watch soccer? The main point of a pub for me is that I go to it regularly and become a local. It sounds to me as if it would not matter where the pub was, you would hate it as you seem to hate almost every suburb in Perth. I was staying in South Perth and the local pub was the Windsor. In Applecross it was Raffles. In Northbridge it was on of the Irish pubs whose name escapes me. I came closest to becoming a local at the Windsor because I was in South Perth for over a month. The people I met there were the same mixture I have met everywhere I've been in Australia.

I suppose Perth/WA people may have a "them and us" attitude to the rest of Australia aka "The Eastern States".But many Aussies identify with their state rather than the country as a whole. Which is more important? To beat England in The Ashes or to beat NSW or Queensland in State of Origin? I put that question to a few Queenslanders and they said "beating NSW.'

When I went to the pub in Subiaco to watch Spurs it was no different to the pub I go to in Sydney to watch Spurs, with a mixture of Pommies and home-grown Aussies who for whatever reason support Spurs - they went to England and saw them, their dad is a Spurs fan. 

I have a soft spot for Perth because it was where I first arrived in Australia and I liked it but I ended up in Sydney. I don't think Australia is any more or less egalitarian than the UK. So far, Australia hasn't developed the "posh" accent of the UK, but perhaps in a few more generations the Aussie private schools will have developed a similar "posh" Aussie accent.

[Bulya]

2 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I find it hard to believe that the rest of the Australian cricket team in the early 1970's regarded Dennis Lillee and Rod Marsh as "different" from them because they came from WA.

Irrelevant.  

[Blue Flu]

7 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

The way you have described Applecross, or at least the "posh" part, could apply to anywhere in Australia. What does "very expensive" mean anyway? Very expensive compared to where? I Googled the median house price and I see it is just below 2 million dollars for a house and around 600,000 dollars for a unit. I looked up Surry Hills to compare it and the house prices are about the same but the unit price median is much higher in Surry HIlls. Whether you can compare the two suburbs is another matter. Surry HIlls is in the inner city whereas Applecross is a few kilometres south on the water. I don't know whether you could get a similar house in a similar location in Sydney for the price of one of those mansions in Applecross.

From the way that you describe parts of Perth you sound somewhat "snobby" yourself - Windsor Hotel would soon be old hat? Scarborough full of miners? I seem to recall a similar comment about meeting fellow Pommies to watch soccer? The main point of a pub for me is that I go to it regularly and become a local. It sounds to me as if it would not matter where the pub was, you would hate it as you seem to hate almost every suburb in Perth. I was staying in South Perth and the local pub was the Windsor. In Applecross it was Raffles. In Northbridge it was on of the Irish pubs whose name escapes me. I came closest to becoming a local at the Windsor because I was in South Perth for over a month. The people I met there were the same mixture I have met everywhere I've been in Australia.

I suppose Perth/WA people may have a "them and us" attitude to the rest of Australia aka "The Eastern States".But many Aussies identify with their state rather than the country as a whole. Which is more important? To beat England in The Ashes or to beat NSW or Queensland in State of Origin? I put that question to a few Queenslanders and they said "beating NSW.'

When I went to the pub in Subiaco to watch Spurs it was no different to the pub I go to in Sydney to watch Spurs, with a mixture of Pommies and home-grown Aussies who for whatever reason support Spurs - they went to England and saw them, their dad is a Spurs fan. 

I have a soft spot for Perth because it was where I first arrived in Australia and I liked it but I ended up in Sydney. I don't think Australia is any more or less egalitarian than the UK. So far, Australia hasn't developed the "posh" accent of the UK, but perhaps in a few more generations the Aussie private schools will have developed a similar "posh" Aussie accent.

I'd never say it was different to any other posh part of Australia. What I write is how I found Applecross and the somewhat tedious all to apparent pretentiousness of the place. Hard to compare Inner City Sydney with suburban Perth for obvious reasons. 

Look I'm not having a dig at you liking what you like. Just pointing out the perspective of some one that knows Perth well and to say less than enchanted at what it has become would be an understatement. Perth pubs? Your right. At least in that I don't have a local anymore since the few preferable ale houses in the city closed up shop. 

I do think your needs are not sure how to write it, but something along the lines of being easily satisfied. If you didn't have a 'friend' in Perth apparently living in Applecross , and say in Balga or Armadale , I can't help but wonder if those suburbs would be met with equal applause from yourself? Perhaps it is not so much the place but knowing someone in one of those places and finding a pub accordingly. 

I must say, I live around a few okay pubs, and don't know anyone who frequents them on a regular basis. Hardly a cheap 'interest' these days and inn my manor few go out alone anyway. Be hard to break into a group. There I guess football comes into play. 

I understand the reasons you have a soft spot for Perth. Perth 1978 was vastly different to what it is today in many ways. A shame you didn't attempt to contact me when over here. Your right about the egalitarian bit . There is very much old school here as well. Probably accent more refined as well , but that is not really the measure in Australia , although perhaps I see signs of it developing? 

 

[Blue Flu]

8 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I find it hard to believe that the rest of the Australian cricket team in the early 1970's regarded Dennis Lillee and Rod Marsh as "different" from them because they came from WA.

Never heard that. Both played the Aussie larrikan card to a tee and with behaviour these days that would not be for a large part tolerated. But then they were not paid the big bucks either. That came in probably later in their career. 

[Blue Flu]

8 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

Regarding your last paragraph, someone was just telling me that certain suburbs in certain cities are crime-ridden but I don't think he was suggesting, as you are, that living in those suburbs is stimulating and takes you out of boredom and a "dull as dishwater" atmosphere.

Well it can still be sanitized to an extent and have loads of illegal activity. To an extent it hides the going's on. I don't think many would say in Perth , at least, that higher crime outer suburbs are more entertaining. Often on a street level little to be observed . Comes out of the blue when least expecting. Railway stations for example. 

[MARYROSE02]

2 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

Never heard that. Both played the Aussie larrikan card to a tee and with behaviour these days that would not be for a large part tolerated. But then they were not paid the big bucks either. That came in probably later in their career. 

I was thinking about the possibility of them both joining the Aussie Army in 1970 if they hadn't been good at cricket, then their fellow diiggers from "the Eastern States" finding them "different".

Come to think of it,  the Aussie cricket team probably puts its players through the same kind of socialisation process as the Army so that they all end up with the same mindset.

Perhaps the players are under more pressure to keep fit and off the grog during the games but then let their hair down in much the same way as "the good old days".

I used to think those guys were fearsome, Lilliee, Thompson, Boon, (56 beets on a flight to London?!), McGrath, but in retirement they seem almost "sweet" .

[MARYROSE02]

2 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

Well it can still be sanitized to an extent and have loads of illegal activity. To an extent it hides the going's on. I don't think many would say in Perth , at least, that higher crime outer suburbs are more entertaining. Often on a street level little to be observed . Comes out of the blue when least expecting. Railway stations for example. 

Sounds to me as if Perth is a microcosm of Sydney. If I Googled Surry Hills / Redfern I doubt I'd ever have moved here especially in the 1980s before gentrification and the huge housing estates are all still here. 

[MARYROSE02]

2 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

I'd never say it was different to any other posh part of Australia. What I write is how I found Applecross and the somewhat tedious all to apparent pretentiousness of the place. Hard to compare Inner City Sydney with suburban Perth for obvious reasons. 

Look I'm not having a dig at you liking what you like. Just pointing out the perspective of some one that knows Perth well and to say less than enchanted at what it has become would be an understatement. Perth pubs? Your right. At least in that I don't have a local anymore since the few preferable ale houses in the city closed up shop. 

I do think your needs are not sure how to write it, but something along the lines of being easily satisfied. If you didn't have a 'friend' in Perth apparently living in Applecross , and say in Balga or Armadale , I can't help but wonder if those suburbs would be met with equal applause from yourself? Perhaps it is not so much the place but knowing someone in one of those places and finding a pub accordingly. 

I must say, I live around a few okay pubs, and don't know anyone who frequents them on a regular basis. Hardly a cheap 'interest' these days and inn my manor few go out alone anyway. Be hard to break into a group. There I guess football comes into play. 

I understand the reasons you have a soft spot for Perth. Perth 1978 was vastly different to what it is today in many ways. A shame you didn't attempt to contact me when over here. Your right about the egalitarian bit . There is very much old school here as well. Probably accent more refined as well , but that is not really the measure in Australia , although perhaps I see signs of it developing? 

 

Let's say it's s subjective point of view. I arrived in Perth in November,  1978, and loved it. Had I got a job I'd have probably still been there. 

I couldn't get a job in Adelaide so I went to Sydney where I'd never intended to go but I got a job and here I've stayed (bar 12 years back in England and 8 months in Surfers).

I like living in the inner city where I don't have to drive everywhere because I can walk or use public transport.  That's why I liked Surfers and,  if I was moving to Perth I'd choose a similar location  close to the CBD. My hostel back in 78 was in Newcastle St. South Perth, Subiaco, anywhere  where I can have all the facilities outside my door. I'd look for the same in Brisbane,  Adelaide or Melbourne. 

I imagine Balga and Armadale are out in the far burbs. In Sydney that means "Westies" whom we stereotype as wearing flanno shirts over ACDC T shirts, Ugg boots and no teeth. 

As it happens I worked in Penrith the Westie capital and I took to it. Had I got that job 40 years ago I might have moved there.  And now my brother lives in a similar area though on a nice new estate (no housos). I doubt you would like it though.  100s of similar homes,  stretching out, 60 km from the CBD, not cheap mind, 1 million dollars.

Needs must.  I moved around Sydney and only ended up in trendy, yuppy, hipster Surry Hills because I wanted to be able to work to work.

[Blue Flu]

4 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I was thinking about the possibility of them both joining the Aussie Army in 1970 if they hadn't been good at cricket, then their fellow diiggers from "the Eastern States" finding them "different".

Come to think of it,  the Aussie cricket team probably puts its players through the same kind of socialisation process as the Army so that they all end up with the same mindset.

Perhaps the players are under more pressure to keep fit and off the grog during the games but then let their hair down in much the same way as "the good old days".

I used to think those guys were fearsome, Lilliee, Thompson, Boon, (56 beets on a flight to London?!), McGrath, but in retirement they seem almost "sweet" .

Yep. I recall Marsh smashing up the changing room in the English city he was playing in. Don't recall the ground but some of the tabloids went to war on him. One I recall headlined "Send this Aussie Yobbo Home" Aussies appeared to like their reputation and dishing it out to The Poms. All days before money and commercial interests tamed the Aussie beast. 

[Blue Flu]

4 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

Sounds to me as if Perth is a microcosm of Sydney. If I Googled Surry Hills / Redfern I doubt I'd ever have moved here especially in the 1980s before gentrification and the huge housing estates are all still here. 

The nature of the places make the two rather different. Perth based on mining has more a Bogan feel. Just face it a lot of Aussie was rough pre eighties. Inner City Perth no exception. 

[Blue Flu]

4 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

Let's say it's s subjective point of view. I arrived in Perth in November,  1978, and loved it. Had I got a job I'd have probably still been there. 

I couldn't get a job in Adelaide so I went to Sydney where I'd never intended to go but I got a job and here I've stayed (bar 12 years back in England and 8 months in Surfers).

I like living in the inner city where I don't have to drive everywhere because I can walk or use public transport.  That's why I liked Surfers and,  if I was moving to Perth I'd choose a similar location  close to the CBD. My hostel back in 78 was in Newcastle St. South Perth, Subiaco, anywhere  where I can have all the facilities outside my door. I'd look for the same in Brisbane,  Adelaide or Melbourne. 

I imagine Balga and Armadale are out in the far burbs. In Sydney that means "Westies" whom we stereotype as wearing flanno shirts over ACDC T shirts, Ugg boots and no teeth. 

As it happens I worked in Penrith the Westie capital and I took to it. Had I got that job 40 years ago I might have moved there.  And now my brother lives in a similar area though on a nice new estate (no housos). I doubt you would like it though.  100s of similar homes,  stretching out, 60 km from the CBD, not cheap mind, 1 million dollars.

Needs must.  I moved around Sydney and only ended up in trendy, yuppy, hipster Surry Hills because I wanted to be able to work to work.

Did you stop en route? Perhaps Singapore but don't recall you doing much in the way of travel. Hence Perth would most likely have been your first port of call outside of Southampton. No surprise then it featured so highly in your recollection. Perth 1978 was somewhat the wild west. Very easy to get into a fight , loud course and aggressive people most everywhere , not that everyone was, but enough to make it notable. I recall the numbers of drunks everywhere. Drink driving was still common , but sure enough the spirit was very different from today. 

The Western suburbs in the Perth context are in general the blue chip. Much of the rest is hit and miss. Very hard to say what is good, as you could be unlucky. The next street could easily be dealers or anti social elements of various kinds. But as in all cities, there are several stand out 'less agreeable' suburbs , where most would agree. But not always easy to pick up at a ground level unless spending time in a particular area. 

No I wouldn't like your brothers choice of residence. But then don't like my inner city one either these days, for very different reasons. Still great for location though. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Blue Flu

[IrishDigger]

Never intended to return to Ireland or the UK when I left for Australia in 1964.

Lived in various parts of Australia and served overseas with the Australian Defence Force.

Now retired and living the dream.

[MARYROSE02]

18 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

Did you stop en route? Perhaps Singapore but don't recall you doing much in the way of travel. Hence Perth would most likely have been your first port of call outside of Southampton. No surprise then it featured so highly in your recollection. Perth 1978 was somewhat the wild west. Very easy to get into a fight , loud course and aggressive people most everywhere , not that everyone was, but enough to make it notable. I recall the numbers of drunks everywhere. Drink driving was still common , but sure enough the spirit was very different from today. 

The Western suburbs in the Perth context are in general the blue chip. Much of the rest is hit and miss. Very hard to say what is good, as you could be unlucky. The next street could easily be dealers or anti social elements of various kinds. But as in all cities, there are several stand out 'less agreeable' suburbs , where most would agree. But not always easy to pick up at a ground level unless spending time in a particular area. 

No I wouldn't like your brothers choice of residence. But then don't like my inner city one either these days, for very different reasons. Still great for location though. 

I didn't choose Perth because it was the closest part of Australia to England. I was originally flying to Queensland but then I found a good deal 50 quid cheaper which involved a charter flight on Dan Air from Gatwick to Singapore and a Russian ship to Fremantle. 

Of course Perth IS closer to the UK than the "Eastern States" something the "Perth is the most isolated city in Australia" forget. If you like going "home" a 17 hour direct flight sounds (slightly) more pleasant than 24 hours on two flights.

Your description of Perth in 1978 is different to mine.  I checked my diary, 3rd November, "My first impressions of Perth are really good.  I like it and I want to stay." I was scared when I went into my first Aussie pub, naively thinking that my Pommie accent would lead to a bashing. In Sydney a month later I wrote,  "I was a bit afraid coming into Sydney as it's a big city and I've heard it's a bit rough." I was naive about a lot of things then. 

Mind you, Sydney IS a big city with a seven day, all day and half the night peak hour, unlike Perth, which was one of the things I liked when I back there.  You can drive for pleasure unlike in Sydney where you just endure the roads. 

I know the western suburbs of Perth are the posher parts. I actually thought Perth's western suburbs was the ocean. With Sydney being on the east coast and Perth on the west I was thinking that what we call "Westies" you call "Easties." All very patronising I know. But as I said, I worked in Penrith which is 55 to 60km from me and I grew to like it. It's even got a "High St".

[MARYROSE02]

1 hour ago, IrishDigger said:

Never intended to return to Ireland or the UK when I left for Australia in 1964.

Lived in various parts of Australia and served overseas with the Australian Defence Force.

Now retired and living the dream.

I tried to define "Living the Dream" as living by the sea in a mostly warm part of Australia. Maybe I should start a thread asking for definitions. 

[Toots]

1 hour ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I tried to define "Living the Dream" as living by the sea in a mostly warm part of Australia. Maybe I should start a thread asking for definitions. 

Living the dream for me is not having to get up in the morning and go to work.    Seriously though, since moving to Tassie I wouldn't say it's living the dream but we are very happy we moved here.

[Blue Flu]

3 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I tried to define "Living the Dream" as living by the sea in a mostly warm part of Australia. Maybe I should start a thread asking for definitions. 

Thing with dreaming of course, at some stage, one usually wakes up. 

[Marisawright]

On 10/12/2021 at 02:18, MARYROSE02 said:

Did you come for the theatre and opera?

No, I came for an adventure. I stayed because I love the lifestyle which includes theatre and ballet (not opera).   I have not been to the beach for about six years.

[Bulya]

4 hours ago, Marisawright said:

No, I came for an adventure. I stayed because I love the lifestyle which includes theatre and ballet (not opera).   I have not been to the beach for about six years.

Haven’t been to a beach for decades.  Sand gets into places it shouldn’t…

[MARYROSE02]

On 11/12/2021 at 17:31, Marisawright said:

No, I came for an adventure. I stayed because I love the lifestyle which includes theatre and ballet (not opera).   I have not been to the beach for about six years.

I came for an adventure too, perhaps the only adventurous thing I've done in my life.  I did have a day trip to Soweto a few years back,  minibus from the hotel in Sandton. 

I've always lived close to the sea although I'm not a seafaring man.

[MARYROSE02]

On 11/12/2021 at 21:38, Bulya said:

Haven’t been to a beach for decades.  Sand gets into places it shouldn’t…

As I just said to Marisa, I've always lived close to the sea, although I've rarely lived ON a beach.  Surfers Paradise was the closest - five minutes walk. "Surry Hills with a beach" as I like to describe it.

[Bobj]

On 11/12/2021 at 16:31, Marisawright said:

No, I came for an adventure. I stayed because I love the lifestyle which includes theatre and ballet*** (not opera).   I have not been to the beach for about six years.

Same here,After arriving in Smellbum in Oct 1963, I moved to Perth in Nov. then to Bumbry as it was termed in those days. April 1964 and off to the Kimberlies and stayed there for the next 7 years. Imagine being paid to look for gravel and waterholes to build roads and I was 'let loose' in that magnificent area!

Been having an adventure ever since. Even planning a 'last' trip to the Kimberlies, or NT desert, or both...

Cheers, Bobj.

***While up in the Kimberlies, we hosted a couple of members of the WA Ballet Co. The second male lead was a butcher by trade, and the delightful young 'lady' was a drop out from some den of iniquity...She swore like a wharfie!

 

[Blue Flu]

I've usually found the adventure was more en route to a given destination. Unless of course that destination was purely to travel. (arrival usually means looking for a place to live and work)