adopted children

[tab]

I am a dual citizen British and Australian.  I have been living back in the UK for several years and while here I have adopted 3 British children.  I wish to return to Perth in January 2019 and have good work prospects am a nurse and midwife.  Also have friends who will rent me a house.  The problem I am having is although I have total legal parental responsibility for the purpose of immigration they don't have the same rights as biological children.  I would have to sponsor my children and the whole system is a pain in the behind and frankly discrinatory in my opinion.  Am wondering if the children came with me on a years tourist visa I can enter legally and work and I immediately applied for them to stay would that be any easier than the hoops we have to jump through at this end. Sadly embassy at this end rubbish and give very conflicting and confusing advice.  Any suggestions appreciated 

[Guest]

I'd first of all say don't bother contacting the Aus High Commission about what your best plan of action would be. They are not there to give out advice and are often incorrect. I'd seek out a reputable migration agent (any of the ones who post regularly on here would be a good starting point @Alan Collett @Raul Senise @wrussell @Richard Gregan ) and see what any of them have to say and what the process is etc. They should be able to offer a free assessment of your case. 

 

 

[Marisawright]

What Snifter said.   In the olden days, when embassy and consulate staff were actually involved in immigration processes, they could offer advice.   That's not their job these days.

But anyway, there is no way they're going to advise you to take them over on a tourist visa and then apply to stay, because it's illegal to use a tourist visa to enter the country with intent to remain permanently.   If you're caught, you get deported and can get a 3 year ban.

In practice, plenty of people do it - but you have to arrive pretending you're on holiday, so you have to lie on your arrival card and it's probably best to buy return tickets!  

You'll probably need an agent to get you through the process anyway so I'd talk to one of the good guys on these forums.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marisawright

[tab]

30 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

What Snifter said.   In the olden days, when embassy and consulate staff were actually involved in immigration processes, they could offer advice.   That's not their job these days.

But anyway, there is no way they're going to advise you to take them over on a tourist visa and then apply to stay, because it's illegal to use a tourist visa to enter the country with intent to remain permanently.   If you're caught, you get deported and can get a 3 year ban.

In practice, plenty of people do it - but you have to arrive pretending you're on holiday, so you have to lie on your arrival card and it's probably best to buy return tickets!  

You'll probably need an agent to get you through the process anyway so I'd talk to one of the good guys on these forums.

 

[tab]

The thing is I have already spoke with several immigration agents and an adoption lawyer and because it's so unusual no one was sure. My dilemma is u don't want to spend 3000  pounds to find the kids hate it whereas it would be minimal cost to come initially on a tourist visa for them or better still I could claim citizenship in the same way biological parents can. I feel it makes a mockery of the whole legality of adoption. It's hard to know whether they would let them stay with there Australian parent if I told immigration I'd found work and intending to stay. or would they insist they return to UK with no roots there and then apply. As a single parent 3 grand is a lot to waste if life in oz doesn't suit the kids 

[Guest]

Have you been through all of this already?

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Citizenship/Pages/Child-adopted-overseas-by-an-Australian-citizen.aspx

[Marisawright]

10 minutes ago, tab said:

The thing is I have already spoke with several immigration agents and an adoption lawyer and because it's so unusual no one was sure. My dilemma is u don't want to spend 3000  pounds to find the kids hate it whereas it would be minimal cost to come initially on a tourist visa for them or better still I could claim citizenship in the same way biological parents can. I feel it makes a mockery of the whole legality of adoption. It's hard to know whether they would let them stay with there Australian parent if I told immigration I'd found work and intending to stay. or would they insist they return to UK with no roots there and then apply. As a single parent 3 grand is a lot to waste if life in oz doesn't suit the kids 

I can understand that.  As you're a citizen, there's nothing to stop you arriving for a 3 month holiday to visit your friends, and bring the children with you.  Just don't arrive with all your worldly goods, so you don't arouse suspicion, and book return tickets.

Once you're in the country, there is absolutely nothing to prevent you starting work, because you won't be on a tourist visa.  

Normally, if someone applies for a substantive visa once they're actually in Australia, they go on a bridging visa while they wait for a decision.  However in your case the children would be applying for citizenship straight away, so I guess that's why there's all the confusion. Good luck with it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marisawright

[wrussell]

Quote

The problem I am having is although I have total legal parental responsibility for the purpose of immigration they don't have the same rights as biological children.

What have you been advised is different?

[tab]

The legalities of adoption give children and parents the same legal responsibilities as birth children.  I've had a read on Australian legal definition for adoption and it is the same. Yet adopted children supposedly can't enter the country as citizens by descent  however at ten times the cost you can apply to sponsor them. Seems very discriminatory and unjust but . I am also querying coming on an extended holiday. The dept of education for w.a clearly states that children of Australia citizens are entitled to free education. At the end of the day these are my children and I am there legal parent

[Guest]

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Trav/Citi/pathways-processes/application-options/adoption

Does this not mean you can apply for them to gain citizenship by descent? 

Or are your children adopted in some form that isn't recognised? It would seem very odd that if adopted in the UK that the procedure used isn't recognised. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, tab said:

The legalities of adoption give children and parents the same legal responsibilities as birth children.  I've had a read on Australian legal definition for adoption and it is the same. Yet adopted children supposedly can't enter the country as citizens by descent  however at ten times the cost you can apply to sponsor them. Seems very discriminatory and unjust but . I am also querying coming on an extended holiday. The dept of education for w.a clearly states that children of Australia citizens are entitled to free education. At the end of the day these are my children and I am there legal parent

Or do you mean they can't enter with just their Aus citizenship by descent certificate and without Aus passports also? If Aus citizen by descent then an Aus passport would be required to enter Australia on. Not a UK one. 
 

Entering Aus on UK passports on a tourist visa would mean they may well not be eligible for state education without the big fees. 

Sorry, am just trying to understand as I feel some things are not quite making sense and am trying to work out exactly where its all getting confused. 

[tab]

No allegedly can't claim citizenship by descent  but would have to sponsor them under an expat adoption visa at a ridiculous cost . They would then get a pr  visa. once in Australia I can apply for citizenship for them immediately.  I also need social services approval according to the Australian embassy to take children to live there 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, tab said:

No allegedly can't claim citizenship by descent  but would have to sponsor them under an expat adoption visa at a ridiculous cost . They would then get a pr  visa. once in Australia I can apply for citizenship for them immediately.  I also need social services approval according to the Australian embassy to take children to live there 

So your children are not adopted using a system that Australia recognises? Eg the Hague Convention that it mentions below. Surely the UK uses that set up as they seem to accept it for adoptions from overseas into the UK and so forth. I really don't get quite why you cannot apply for their citizenship by descent as listed on the Gov website. 

This information is for you if you were, or if your child was, adopted outside Australia by an Australian citizen and the adoption was completed outside Australia in accordance with:

• the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption, or 
• a bilateral arrangement between Australia and another country.

Read about options if the adoption was completed in Australia or outside Australia under other arrangements.

Eligibility - the adoption was completed outside Australia in accordance with the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption or a bilateral arrangement between Australia and another country.

Documents - get documents about the child’s identity and adoption, including an Adoption Compliance Certificate and the adoptive parent’s Australian citizenship.

Apply - pay the fee and send the application for Australian citizenship with certified copies of all of the required documents.

Fees

The fee for this application is AUD 230. Applications for the second and each subsequent sibling applying at the same time are AUD 95.

[tab]

Hague convention adoptions are generally intercountry adoptions you live in Australia and adopt from Thailand  e.g.  British adoption by British citizens or residents doesn't class as a Hague convention adoption hence the ex pat adoption  visa which is crazy money for three children.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, tab said:

Hague convention adoptions are generally intercountry adoptions you live in Australia and adopt from Thailand  e.g.  British adoption by British citizens or residents doesn't class as a Hague convention adoption hence the ex pat adoption  visa which is crazy money for three children.  

Ok, that makes sense. 

So all the migration agents and lawyers have said the same thing? I guess the adoption aspect under the Hague Convention is more aimed at parents residing in Aus at time of adopting and wanting to bring the child back from the country they have adopted from. Not for parents who were resident elsewhere overseas and adopted children while living there. 

How old are the children? if they are older, what do they think about migrating? If younger, are they really going to fully understand all it entails anyway. Do you plan to make Perth home in the long term all being well? I guess what I am trying to get at is you could bring them on a holiday and see how it goes but honestly, its a huge expense. If those able to understand are on board with it, you could certainly give it a go and migrate and do as been instructed once in Australia in terms of sponsoring them and so forth. 

To be honest, I doubt there is anyone active on this forum who has had experience of what you are trying to do (other than some migration agents possibly). Its far from the usual situation and if you've sought advice and been told the same thing from agents and lawyers, it sounds like that is your path and you'll have to go with it if you want to move back. 

 

[Tulip1]

You say many experts have confirmed what you have put on here and I guess regardless to whether you think it's right or wrong it is what it is.  Sure £3k is a lot of money but moving to a new country always is. There are a great many who would pay huge amounts of money if only they could do it. I know that doesn't make it any better for you and it does sound harsh but we can't change the law, we just have to abide by it. Going on a tourist visa would be a bad idea I think but there's no point in asking others whether you should enter on a tourist visa as you know the answer is really no, you just need to decide yourself wherher to do it or not.  You can't really use the line I don't want to pay in case the kids don't like Australia,  everyone has to take that risk and ultimately you are the parent in charge of where you live not them. Not meaning to be blunt but you are asking a forum of general people a question that you asked many experts in the field, the experts have all said the same thing to you, not sure what you want the forum to say other than to answer should you go on a tourist visa. Several have said not to but you know that already.  Good luck on your new adventure and I hope it works out for you 

[Marisawright]

It does sound like you've just been unlucky and fallen between two stools.

If you had been living in Australia when you adopted these children from the UK, you could apply under the Hague Convention provisions - but as you were in the UK and adopted them as a British citizen, you can't. 

If you were only a British citizen when you adopted these children in the UK, you could apply for a skilled visa now, and they would automatically be classed as your dependents and included in your visa.    The trouble is, you can't apply for a PR visa because you've already got one.  And there is only one way to tag new dependents on to an existing visa - which is the pathway you've been told about.

I think there comes a point, when you've asked several experts and they've all said the same thing, to accept that they're right - that's the way it is and there is no magic way around it.  

It's going to cost you the same to apply whether you apply in the UK, or sneak them into the country and apply onshore.  You'll have to go through exactly the same process.  So the only thing it will give you is a chance for the kids to see if they like it - and since their tourist visa will only be three months, you'll have to set the ball rolling almost at once, and they won't have had time to judge whether they'll like living there. They'll still be in holiday mode and having a good time - it takes a few weeks before they start missing their friends or their usual activities, and of course they won't get any idea what school there is like. 

A couple of points to consider. It's always a challenge for migrant kids when they're whisked away from their established friends, school, home etc.  Most children get over it quickly, but adopted children might find it more traumatic if they've had experiences of loss or abandonment already in their lives.    Also, I believe adopted children often feel the pull to find their roots.  That could mean, once they're grown up, that they'll be off back to the UK, leaving you with the choice of staying in Perth on your own, or uprooting and starting all over again in the UK.   I know it's a risk for all migrants bringing children, but it seems to me it could be more of a risk with adopted kids.  Just a thought.

[Tulip1]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

It does sound like you've just been unlucky and fallen between two stools.

If you had been living in Australia when you adopted these children from the UK, you could apply under the Hague Convention provisions - but as you were in the UK and adopted them as a British citizen, you can't. 

If you were only a British citizen when you adopted these children in the UK, you could apply for a skilled visa now, and they would automatically be classed as your dependents and included in your visa.    The trouble is, you can't apply for a PR visa because you've already got one.  And there is only one way to tag new dependents on to an existing visa - which is the pathway you've been told about.

I think there comes a point, when you've asked several experts and they've all said the same thing, to accept that they're right - that's the way it is and there is no magic way around it.  

It's going to cost you the same to apply whether you apply in the UK, or sneak them into the country and apply onshore.  You'll have to go through exactly the same process.  So the only thing it will give you is a chance for the kids to see if they like it - and since their tourist visa will only be three months, you'll have to set the ball rolling almost at once, and they won't have had time to judge whether they'll like living there. They'll still be in holiday mode and having a good time - it takes a few weeks before they start missing their friends or their usual activities, and of course they won't get any idea what school there is like. 

A couple of points to consider. It's always a challenge for migrant kids when they're whisked away from their established friends, school, home etc.  Most children get over it quickly, but adopted children might find it more traumatic if they've had experiences of loss or abandonment already in their lives.    Also, I believe adopted children often feel the pull to find their roots.  That could mean, once they're grown up, that they'll be off back to the UK, leaving you with the choice of staying in Perth on your own, or uprooting and starting all over again in the UK.   I know it's a risk for all migrants bringing children, but it seems to me it could be more of a risk with adopted kids.  Just a thought.

Great reply 

[rammygirl]

According to the home affairs link it doesn’t have to be via Hague convention.  Just legally and total in the country of domicile by a an Aus citizen who has been living in that country for several years.  You need to prove that the adoption is full and legal (with no claim by birth parents) and that you are allowed to remove the children from the UK.  That is how I read it, two ways Hague or private legal adoption via regulated authorities in country of residence.  

Different if you just pop over to UK to adopt than if you were properly resident there at the time.

Personally I would consult Westly Russell who has posted above.  He has I believe some experience in this area and will tell you the facts.  Expect to pay for him to review your case properly and give the relevant advice.  His prices from what I have seen are reasonable.

Edited May 4, 2018 by rammygirl

[Parley]

I don't believe the law is discriminatory.

To claim citizenship by descent the parent needs to be an Australian citizen at the time of the birth of the child.

 

[wrussell]

Quote

To claim citizenship by descent the parent needs to be an Australian citizen at the time of the birth of the child.

This is true.

More particulalry must be a parent of the child at the time of birth.

This is not true of an adopted child.