Ban unskilled workers wanting UK

[Rallyman]

5 minutes ago, newjez said:

I do agree with this. But you seem to be under some strange miss understanding that all this will change with brexit. It won't. Australia, with it's controls, is in no better situation than the UK.

Australia is a lot better than the uk in this respect you can't simply arrive and stay here with out a required skill , I agree that sydney property prices are on another planet but it's a major city of the world and like others property is expensive, I was totally unaware of how many wealthy people who live in Sydney and not just because of a rising property market but I think Sydney will see a adjustment in the next 18 months , as to brexit things will change maybe for the better but to gain control of your boarders has to be good as it's not just housing that is under pressure the whole of the uk infrastructure is straining, I don't think the Torys have helped this with their austerity measures.

[simmo]

27 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

My point remains the same, if migrants are here doing a job, whether skilled or unskilled, and paying taxes then they should have access to housing, my other point is that there is a complete failure to build sufficient low cost housing and this has been happening for all the period of Tory rule, production has been 20% below that required, my other point is that the demand for migrant labour is generated by employers and the govt, another point is that many migrant workers are transient so their demand for housing is not for permanent housing. 

Quote

• Immigration is a major factor in the demand for housing. To meet overall demand it is estimated that the UK needs to build 300,000 homes a year - that is one every two minutes. (Paragraph 1)
• In England alone, 240,000 homes will need to be built every year for the next 25 years, 45% of which will be due to migration. This means we will need to build one home every four minutes for the next 25 years just to house future migrants and their children. (Paragraph 1)
• Official data shows that over the last ten years, 90% of the additional households created in England were headed by a person born abroad. (Paragraph 5)
• In London all of the additional households formed in the last ten years were headed up by someone born overseas. (Paragraph 5)
• In the short term the UK needs to build more homes. In the longer term any housing strategy must also address demand. Reducing net migration will reduce the demand for housing. (Paragraph 9)

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/housing

[BacktoDemocracy]

38 minutes ago, newjez said:

I do agree with this. But you seem to be under some strange miss understanding that all this will change with brexit. It won't. Australia, with it's controls, is in no better situation than the UK.

 

44 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Not sure what planet you are on  do you work in construction? 

I can only speak of my own experience, Green belt land is being built on all across the uk , they have relaxed planning rules to get more houses built,nothing to do with Tory mp's and builders trying to boost prices.

Incase  you didn't know new developments have to have a larger percentage of affordable housing and it's requirements are increasing 

There is no shortage of building inspectors to check work is complying with current regulations developers can go with local authorities or NHBC if they wish ,you will always get good and bad workmanship but this also relates to training your workforce as pointed out in previous posts, hence the original post about skilled migration 

Having been the senior contracts manager for a house building company building around 250 homes a year we never held back if we could sell,  you are in la la land companies need cash flow you don't get that by holding back stock. We were always planning 2-3-4 years down the line to keep moving forward and retain the excellent work force we had. 

Imigration has driven labour rates down this is a well know fact, what seems to be going over your head is the amount of immigration year on year into the uk, putting extra demand on a shortage of housing to meet current levels of people already living in the uk , you need to be able to control this and as it stands the uk can't do this being a member. 

I was in the building from 1963 on, starting as a bricklayer and finishing as a  Charted Building surveyor

First why are we building on greenfield sites when there are so many brownfield sites, because greenfield are easier and cheaper, brown sites build sustainable communities and add to the viability of existing towns but builders don't want the bother and Councils and H Assocs cant get the money to develop them, councils are not even allowed to develop.

The amount of affordable rental property in a development is below 10% and affordable rental is defined as renting at 80% of the average local rent, many developers strike deals with local authorities to reduce down affordable  housing inclusions by offering to fund a range of so called local social amenities so the amount is often down below 5%.

How many visits does a building inspector make, it is mainly at key structural points,  but buyers complain frequently about poor finishes, housing associations using design and build contractors with no on site technical supervision such as a clerk of works are demolishing estates built in the last 10 years

Your company may  plan and build as many you can build but this is due to restricted supply and unsatisfied demand leading to higher prices.and inexhaustible demand for a product in short supply

No one knows what the big volume builders plan to build per year but they have land banks around most major towns which would allow them to expand production significantly, but why do that, prices would fall and they would have to buy replacement land at significantly higher prices to build houses on it and sell them at lower prices

The big builders have always resisted training that was one reason for the CITB, well now they do as little training as they can get away with and then everyone is horrified at the quality of construction and tradesmens wages are constantly undercut by the employers bringing in migrant workers to undercut costs, how many in the building industry ever bothered to join a union or protested at the casualisation of the industry.  

[BacktoDemocracy]

55 minutes ago, simmo said:

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/housing

Migration watch is no think tank but a pressure group with a particularly nasty message using unverified statistics to propagate its message about migration

[simmo]

3 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

 

I was in the building from 1963 on, starting as a bricklayer and finishing as a  Charted Building surveyor

First why are we building on greenfield sites when there are so many brownfield sites, because greenfield are easier and cheaper, brown sites build sustainable communities and add to the viability of existing towns but builders don't want the bother and Councils and H Assocs cant get the money to develop them, councils are not even allowed to develop.

The amount of affordable rental property in a development is below 10% and affordable rental is defined as renting at 80% of the average local rent, many developers strike deals with local authorities to reduce down affordable  housing inclusions by offering to fund a range of so called local social amenities so the amount is often down below 5%.

How many visits does a building inspector make, it is mainly at key structural points,  but buyers complain frequently about poor finishes, housing associations using design and build contractors with no on site technical supervision such as a clerk of works are demolishing estates built in the last 10 years

Your company may  plan and build as many you can build but this is due to restricted supply and unsatisfied demand leading to higher prices.and inexhaustible demand for a product in short supply

No one knows what the big volume builders plan to build per year but they have land banks around most major towns which would allow them to expand production significantly, but why do that, prices would fall and they would have to buy replacement land at significantly higher prices to build houses on it and sell them at lower prices

The big builders have always resisted training that was one reason for the CITB, well now they do as little training as they can get away with and then everyone is horrified at the quality of construction and tradesmens wages are constantly undercut by the employers bringing in migrant workers to undercut costs, how many in the building industry ever bothered to join a union or protested at the casualisation of the industry.  

I'm CIOB (i'm guessing you are RICS) I work for a consultancy firm as an EA (similar to CofW and you are spot on except the bit about brown field land.  Yes there are some good sized plot still available (Dagenham being a good example) but they are dwindling fast, schemes are getting more and more high density and town planning and decent local amenities are an afterthought.  In the hurry to meet quotas HAs are sacrificing quality.  I spend a lot of time investigating latent defects inside and outside of the DLP and what I see is horrendous.  I work on a lot of the regen projects in london and where we have accepted the old 60 high rise high density model failed we still put back newer shinier versions of the same.

I also carry out EOD inspections on projects I have seen come out of the ground and what I see is depressing - wanton destruction by the same people who have been gifted a new home by hard working tax payers and yes there is a certain type who think the world owes them a favour.  I have done well out of the housing shortage but we need to analyse what is driving the demand.

[simmo]

16 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Migration watch is no think tank but a pressure group with a particularly nasty message using unverified statistics to propagate its message about migration

happy to listen to you refute any of their claims.....

[BacktoDemocracy]

21 minutes ago, simmo said:

I'm CIOB (i'm guessing you are RICS) I work for a consultancy firm as an EA (similar to CofW and you are spot on except the bit about brown field land.  Yes there are some good sized plot still available (Dagenham being a good example) but they are dwindling fast, schemes are getting more and more high density and town planning and decent local amenities are an afterthought.  In the hurry to meet quotas HAs are sacrificing quality.  I spend a lot of time investigating latent defects inside and outside of the DLP and what I see is horrendous.  I work on a lot of the regen projects in london and where we have accepted the old 60 high rise high density model failed we still put back newer shinier versions of the same.

I also carry out EOD inspections on projects I have seen come out of the ground and what I see is depressing - wanton destruction by the same people who have been gifted a new home by hard working tax payers and yes there is a certain type who think the world owes them a favour.  I have done well out of the housing shortage but we need to analyse what is driving the demand.

But I think that is one of the points about brownfield, they are small and difficult to make stack up for the traditional volume builder, the profit margin is much smaller , but if they are not built on then you get the doughnut effect as in the States where the city centres are ghettoes surrounded by affluent suburbs.

I was CIOB but then became RICS.

I left HA development and refurbishment in 2004 and went to Australia because the writing was on the wall then, standards were in irreversible decline then, it was  just build anything to satisfy the statistics 

[newjez]

1 hour ago, simmo said:

happy to listen to you refute any of their claims.....

It is quite feasible that the 300,000 migrants will drop to 150,000 due to the drop in the pound, decreasing opportunity in the UK, and improved conditions in Europe.

How will that affect your industry?

What if it dropped to 50,000?

The irony would be if we were forced to advertise for migrants post brexit.

[simmo]

14 minutes ago, newjez said:

The irony would be if we were forced to advertise for migrants post brexit.

That would be fine,. If the government did all they can to train our chavs, and did everything they could y=to get the scroungers of their lazy arses then advertise.

 

That's called "control".  It will sink in eventually. 

[VERYSTORMY]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

It is quite feasible that the 300,000 migrants will drop to 150,000 due to the drop in the pound, decreasing opportunity in the UK, and improved conditions in Europe.

How will that affect your industry?

What if it dropped to 50,000?

The irony would be if we were forced to advertise for migrants post brexit.

But it isn't 300,000. It is closer to a million. The last figures for hat are more reliable are 840,000 in twelve months. 

[VERYSTORMY]

14 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Of course they don't. If they could though I'd suggest they would.(or some) What Oz does have is many tens of thousands of back packers, from around the globe, 'encouraged' by means of an additional year 'bribe' to remain in the country , working rurally picking fruit and the like, in some dire conditions at times, including being ripped off and abused. Not by all of course, but still greater regulation may well better for all concerned.

 

Sorry, but your argument is false. Look at the stats. 

Even if it were true, what would stop the UK - which gets as many if not more, backpackers using the same system. 

But the reality is this, it simply isn't needed. The farmers crying foul are largely the big multinationals who want to maximise profit - they never used to pay minimum wage. I know as I was the biggest supplier of gang labour for seasonal agriculture until the early 90's. Pay was so good that locals around Norfolk would take unpaid leave to do it. Today, almost none even earn minimum wage. 

[VERYSTORMY]

On 12 April 2017 at 7:10 PM, BacktoDemocracy said:

And leaving the EU is going to change that.

And why have the Tories allowed this to happen and why have they consistently cut investment in training, even down to removing subsidies for training doctors, nurses and teachers,  all professions now in shortage to the extent that free schools are allowed to employ non professionally trained teachers which the govt does not make much fuss about.. 

It is not always the government to supply training. It is up to the businesses. For example, the heavy goods industry is currently complaining about potential loss of drivers. Yet this is an industry which has not one single company training drivers. Not one. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

45 minutes ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Sorry, but your argument is false. Look at the stats. 

Even if it were true, what would stop the UK - which gets as many if not more, backpackers using the same system. 

But the reality is this, it simply isn't needed. The farmers crying foul are largely the big multinationals who want to maximise profit - they never used to pay minimum wage. I know as I was the biggest supplier of gang labour for seasonal agriculture until the early 90's. Pay was so good that locals around Norfolk would take unpaid leave to do it. Today, almost none even earn minimum wage. 

I'm a bit disconcerted by the number of  careers you seem to have been successful at..

[BacktoDemocracy]

54 minutes ago, VERYSTORMY said:

But it isn't 300,000. It is closer to a million. The last figures for hat are more reliable are 840,000 in twelve months. 

Are we supposed to believe we have had an extra 840,000 people come into the UK in the last 12 months, that's about 4 complete new towns suddenly popped up somewhere.

Another alternative fact???

[Gbye grey sky]

1 hour ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

I'm a bit disconcerted by the number of  careers you seem to have been successful at..

A lifetime of successful, highly paid, professional careers across the world yet seemingly not a penny to his name to show for it all.  

[newjez]

2 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

But it isn't 300,000. It is closer to a million. The last figures for hat are more reliable are 840,000 in twelve months. 

Of course it is. Could even be ten million. Make your own numbers up why don't you.

[newjez]

37 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

A lifetime of successful, highly paid, professional careers across the world yet seemingly not a penny to his name to show for it all.  

Walter Mitty?

[Rallyman]

3 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Are we supposed to believe we have had an extra 840,000 people come into the UK in the last 12 months, that's about 4 complete new towns suddenly popped up somewhere.

Another alternative fact???

It's around 300k per year,  about 1.6 million from eu countries have arrived in the uk between 04-14 

[Guest263228]

7 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

But it isn't 300,000. It is closer to a million. The last figures for hat are more reliable are 840,000 in twelve months. 

That is as I understand inclusive of all incomers including foreign students and those on 'business stays but mot intending to migrate.

[Guest263228]

7 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Sorry, but your argument is false. Look at the stats. 

Even if it were true, what would stop the UK - which gets as many if not more, backpackers using the same system. 

But the reality is this, it simply isn't needed. The farmers crying foul are largely the big multinationals who want to maximise profit - they never used to pay minimum wage. I know as I was the biggest supplier of gang labour for seasonal agriculture until the early 90's. Pay was so good that locals around Norfolk would take unpaid leave to do it. Today, almost none even earn minimum wage. 

Probably because Australia actively has a system in place that 'encourages' back packers into performing manual rural tasks. Most those would not in a million years consider such a thing without the carrot approach.

So all those apple pickers in Kent from Eastern Europe in the nineties were an illusion of my imagination in your opinion?

[newjez]

12 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

That is as I understand inclusive of all incomers including foreign students and those on 'business stays but mot intending to migrate.

Nope, students were in the 300000. That was one of the big who hars with Teresa May. She wanted to keep students in. Without students it is closer to 200000. I think very stormy is referring to tourists.

[BacktoDemocracy]

5 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

That is as I understand inclusive of all incomers including foreign students and those on 'business stays but mot intending to migrate.

And tourists????

Foreign students are, I believe, alredy included in the migration statistics which is one of the reasons why they are unreliable as an indicator of permanent settlement, they also do not show double or triple counting of seasonal, transient workers.  

[BacktoDemocracy]

13 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Sorry, but your argument is false. Look at the stats. 

Even if it were true, what would stop the UK - which gets as many if not more, backpackers using the same system. 

But the reality is this, it simply isn't needed. The farmers crying foul are largely the big multinationals who want to maximise profit - they never used to pay minimum wage. I know as I was the biggest supplier of gang labour for seasonal agriculture until the early 90's. Pay was so good that locals around Norfolk would take unpaid leave to do it. Today, almost none even earn minimum wage. 

The big multinationals like, would you believe it, the Co-op own the land and buildings and then rent the farms out, a very different scenario to Europe where farmers own their own farms and reap the benefits from their own efforts and get EU subsidies on top.

So, yet again, it's about ownership of land and the rentier class, this is one of the reasons  why certain parts of the Tory party hate the EU because it challenged their assumptions of control. 

[Collie]

Thought I'd lighten the mood a little;

 

[VERYSTORMY]

On 13 April 2017 at 8:42 PM, BacktoDemocracy said:

Are we supposed to believe we have had an extra 840,000 people come into the UK in the last 12 months, that's about 4 complete new towns suddenly popped up somewhere.

Another alternative fact???

I suggest rather than look at the propoganda you believe in maybe look beyond. 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-immigration-uk-whats-hidden-national-insurance-number-data/