Renewing British passports while in Oz - and difficult ex-husband

[Sulac]

Hi there,

 

Last year my husband and I separated and he is being extremely difficult at present and it is acrimonious.

 

He has the children's passports and won't hand then over. We have another 9 months before we can apply for citizenship and the British passports have now expired.

 

I want to get the British passports renewed but don't have any of the passport numbers, is this a problem if I want to renew them? Would i need the passport numbers to fill in the online paperwork?

 

Because my husband is being very difficult my solicitor has told me not to worry about the passports at the moment and deal with more pressing issues of lodging paperwork to the family courts.

 

Has anyone been in this situation? Also the passports will be expensive as I have four children. I know my husband won't contribute - could I ask the CSA to step in and help recoup the costs. My friend advised that I could recoup the cost of school fees and books through the CSA, just wondering if this was possible with passports.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Sulac

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Hi Sulac

Would it be worth while saying you have lost the passports?

Like you say applying for 4 passports is going to be very costly. Is there a reason you need them in the next 9 months? If not I would wait until your citizenship comes through and get the Aussie passports instead.

To be honest, and I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't think your husband is going to pay for the new passports and I wouldn't bother chasing it with CSA. I think your solicitor is right that you need to get the legal side sorted first. I'm not sure if your husband is in Australia or the UK but he could stop you taking the children out of the country anyway, so then you won't be needing the passports.

[Ken]

If I remember rightly applying for a child passport requires the written consent of each person who has parental responsibility so you'll need to get the legal side sorted before you can apply for the passports (British or Australian) if your husband isn't cooperative. Just because you're separated doesn't remove your husband's parental responsibility (neither does a divorce by itself - you'll need to discuss with your lawyer).

Edited January 29, 2017 by Ken

[Sulac]

Thanks for this. I wasn't aware that my husband had to be involved and be a signatory which makes it even harder, perhaps I am best to adopt what the Pom Queen suggests and wait until we get our Ozzie passports.

 

Thanks for your help

[Guest The Pom Queen]

If I remember rightly applying for a child passport requires the written consent of each person who has parental responsibility so you'll need to get the legal side sorted before you can apply for the passports (British or Australian) if your husband isn't cooperative. Just because you're separated doesn't remove your husband's parental responsibility (neither does a divorce by itself - you'll need to discuss with your lawyer).

They already have passports so I think a renewal may not need the fathers permission. I may be wrong though.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

I found this. It's 1am here now so I haven't time to read it but hopefully it may help. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118591/children_s-applications.pdf

[Sammy1]

Thanks for this. I wasn't aware that my husband had to be involved and be a signatory which makes it even harder, perhaps I am best to adopt what the Pom Queen suggests and wait until we get our Ozzie passports.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Just so you know, your husband's signature and agreement will also be needed to obtain an Australian passport for your children when the time comes.

[Tulip1]

If you want them id say you have to pay. Yes you are both the parents but it's not something that your ex wants to buy right now. The csa cannot make him pay for this. Your lawyer is right, concentrate on what's important right now. As I'm sure you know, you cannot remove the children from Australia and return to live in the uk without his consent (appreciate you haven't said that is your plan). Is there a reason you need this done now?

[Guest]

Do you have the passport numbers in your visa grant letter? Or can you not look them up on VEVO or some such? Just a thought.

 

I tend to agree with your solicitor. I'd focus on getting the legal aspects sorted asap and not fight this battle right now if you don't have to. There are provisions in place for this sort of thing I am sure (reading the UK Gov passport info on child passports I'd think there is a way to getting new passports when the time comes and your separation is finalised). Also its not massively expensive, its about £50 per passport. I realise this is still a cost on top of everything else but its thankfully not hundreds of pounds for each passport.

 

If you read the child passport PDF ( https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/564950/OS_Guidance_G1_10.16.pdf ) you can see they have sections on the tables for court orders and parental responsibility etc that should hopefully be something you can do when the time comes.

 

I'd document everything re your husband not being helpful etc and causing problems and ensure you can show he isn't being helpful etc. It may all help in the future when citizenship and applying comes round. He can't leave his kids in limbo or without passports or the right to a passport I don't think. Also, if you become a citizen do your children not automatically become citizens then too? I don't know the ins and outs but I'm sure some friends of ours said one of the parents was applying for citizenship before the other and the kids would get citizenship through that. I've never looked into it as ours is a dual citizen already so its not something I've ever had to think about but it might be worth checking. I know not if signatures or anything else would be required from your ex husband or if being separated will mean there is a different process that is followed or it can just be done via your application regardless. All things to look in to when the time comes.

 

ETA - I did read up quickly re citizenship and it does say passport or travel document would be required but I'd hope by then you'd have new passports sorted or have the old ones back.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Guest
eta

[Que Sera Sera]

It's probably to do with " The Hague Convention " All travel documents understandably should require both signatures. The passports are official documents however so surely they belong with the child wherever they reside.

[Collie]

If your children are under 18, you need both parents consent or a court order to obtain a passport (UK or Australian). Have you consent orders agreed for the kids to spend time with their Dad?

 

You will also his permission for the children to travel overseas (rightly so IMO). He may be worried (rightly or wrongly) that you intend to return to the UK and separate his children from him, believe me it happens.

 

Thankfully, the UK and Australia are both signatories to the Hague convention which helps with recovery orders but it is a whole lot of hassle.

 

I suggest you agree a parenting plan with him through mediation and get the family court to put it into consent orders. Much better if you can agree things with him, cheaper than the lawyers, this will mean conceding some points to him.

 

If he is paying you Child support through CSA, that is to cover the costs of the children (including passports). He may agree to pay 50% if you are reasonable on other points.

[Sulac]

If your children are under 18, you need both parents consent or a court order to obtain a passport (UK or Australian). Have you consent orders agreed for the kids to spend time with their Dad?

 

You will also his permission for the children to travel overseas (rightly so IMO). He may be worried (rightly or wrongly) that you intend to return to the UK and separate his children from him, believe me it happens.

 

Thankfully, the UK and Australia are both signatories to the Hague convention which helps with recovery orders but it is a whole lot of hassle.

 

I suggest you agree a parenting plan with him through mediation and get the family court to put it into consent orders. Much better if you can agree things with him, cheaper than the lawyers, this will mean conceding some points to him.

 

If he is paying you Child support through CSA, that is to cover the costs of the children (including passports). He may agree to pay 50% if you are reasonable on other points.

 

 

Thanks for all your support and comments

 

We have already done mediation, but unfortunately he is not in a good place at the moment. I have no intention to returning to England but I think my husband might. He has had the passports for a year.

 

Custody is split 50/50 and we live close to each other but unfortunately any sort of civil relationship has broken down. Just a warning 50/50 is heavily promoted here, which is not really what I wanted or had ever envisaged especially as my husband works long hours and one of our children is just 9.

 

There are some good pointers in this email and I need to look at the links.

 

Thanks once again,

 

Sulac

 

Thnaks everyone for all your help

[janlo]

You don't need both signatures for UK children's passports, just the mothers. I know it's different for the Oz ones...deffo fathers signature required.

[robfromdublin]

Listen to your lawyer, that's his/her job.

 

If you have no intention of going back to England then why do you need passports? It sounds like permission to leave the country would not be forthcoming from the father, so why fight for this? You've bigger fish to fry.

 

Sounds like a terrible situation, my heart goes out to you and your family.

[Collie]

Hi Sulac,

 

Sorry for your troubles. As above, if you are not planning to travel, why do you need the passports? If you are planning to travel, you need to engage him and get his agreement anyway. It sound like you guys need some sort of third party/mediator for agreement on anything (I'm there too btw). have a look at Relationships Australia, they run some good courses for post separation.

 

As a Dad fighting for time with my daughter, this is sensitive topic for me. I disagree with you regarding 50:50, the children are entitled to a relationship with both parents. It is not about him or you but the children and what is in their best interests (your view of their best interests and his may be very different). If week on week off is not practical for 1 party, you can be flexible and arrange something that works for both parties (more time in holidays etc).

 

I have just moved to Perth to be closer to my daughter (3), my ex tried to argue that 2 nights per month is sufficient for my daughter to spend time with her Dad (the same as I was getting flying from Sydney every month). She was laughed out of court. Judge gave me 3 nights per fortnight as an interim. I hope to have 50:50 by the time she is 5 and will fight like hell to get it.

 

Children can normally heavily influence where they spend time from the age of 12 on. As your youngest is 9, they will soon be able to make their own choices. It is best to encourage your children to spend time with the other parent (presuming that they are not abusive/druggie etc). They figure out the sane from the bitter fairly quickly.

[Sulac]

I hear you Collie and take in your side of the story. To be honest no-one wins in a separation and I can understand you wanting 50/50.

 

My husband is a Project Manager and he works long hours and is way from home from 0730 til 630pm, where as I work from home. He has no childcare in place so the oldest ones look after the little one after school.

 

The 50/50 arrangement was never agreed through a formal way, the husband just said he had a right to this and I accepted it as the Anglicare Mediator agreed this was the best way forward.

 

He is behind with CSA payments, and blocks me from having the children's passports and for a year he has refused to communicate. I have now lodged documents to the family court as a way of moving forward, as without any discussion nothing can be finalised.

 

I am all for him having regular contact with the children as he is their father just wish he could be more accommodating in his communication.

 

As I say...no one wins..

[Guest]

Listen to your lawyer, that's his/her job.

 

If you have no intention of going back to England then why do you need passports? It sounds like permission to leave the country would not be forthcoming from the father, so why fight for this? You've bigger fish to fry.

 

Sounds like a terrible situation, my heart goes out to you and your family.

 

It may be that their UK passports are needed for an Aus citizenship application? The OP did mention about applying for citizenship later in the year in the first post. She doesn't mention about trying to leave Aus to return to the UK.

[Que Sera Sera]

Hi Sulac just a thought but can you get the oldest to copy scan and email the passports to you whilst they are at his place . Think that's all you need from memory.

[Tulip1]

Terrible suggestion, don't ever include children in your battles. What's she going to say to the child? Dad won't give me your passports so I want you to find them and go behind his back and copy them. The kid would be doing something against one parent for the others gain and will worry in case dad finds out. Kids must always stay out of parents battles.

[Que Sera Sera]

Terrible suggestion, don't ever include children in your battles. What's she going to say to the child? Dad won't give me your passports so I want you to find them and go behind his back and copy them. The kid would be doing something against one parent for the others gain and will worry in case dad finds out. Kids must always stay out of parents battles.

 

 

Woah! Where did I say do it behind his back? She has to have her ex's permission to apply for citizenship anyway so pointless going behind his back. But the older child can ask for the passports to be scanned and emailed as the Ex is not in communication with the OP. I'm thinking he's not handing them over as he's worried she's going to try to take them away. Please don't put words into my mouth. I actually do have some experience of this myself and didn't need the lecture thank you .

[Tulip1]

50/50 is a shock to mums these days as it's always been mainly them that have the kids. I'm a mum so I totally understand where you're coming from and thankfully when my marriage ended the kids were with we more but that was just my luck I gues as the ex never challenged it. If I'm honest though it should be split. One parent is no less a parent. Nothing wrong with older siblings keeping an eye on younger ones while a parent works. A 9 year old hardly needs constant care. A baby would be different. Siblings have done this for ever and have all grown up just fine. It least they only have to do it 50% of the time which will be a bonus on other kids.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Tulip1

[Sulac]

Thanks once again.

 

And yes 50/50 is a shock. There is no doubting that, and I am aware even Britain is going this way now with 50/50 joint custody.

 

It's just trying times (and today to add to my woes have discovered he is now in arrears with his CSA Payments). I think he is just trying to fight his battles and take control.

 

Once again thanks for all your support.

 

Sulac

[Tulip1]

Point taken and I apologise. Problem is the fact that the lady has said all along he's not giving them to her as he's being awkward would lead me to assume he wouldn't happily have them scanned and emailed to her. The mum would still have to say to the kid dad won't give me your passports so can you ask him for them to scan and send to me. That is still involving the kids in the battle and I personally would not do it. They shouldn't have anything to do with the parents arguments. As has been said, they are not needed right now so no reason to involve children. Once again though I apologise if I offended

[Collie]

Hi Sulac just a thought but can you get the oldest to copy scan and email the passports to you whilst they are at his place . Think that's all you need from memory.

 

Yep, I agree with Tulip1, do not involve your children in your battles, very much frowned upon by the family courts & do not denigrate (or allow others to do so) your ex in front of your children. The other party is still their parent and your children have their DNA in them (whether you like it or not).

 

Again, I agree with Tulip1, having a teenager mind a 9 year old for a few hours is no harm. Concentrate on your time with your kids and stop stressing about his time with his kids (I deliberately said his as they are his too). You can't control that and unless there is a major issue, you won't win it.

 

When you did your split, did you get consent orders (ie from the court) in place? Does it cover conditions for international travel and who holds the passports?

 

50:50 is not a right, there is no such thing as father's rights or mother's rights for that matter. There are children's rights and children have a right to a relationship with both parents. Courts are encouraged to start at 50:50 where possible and deviate based on practicalities and best interests of the children. Given the ages of your children he probably would have gotten 50:50 or close to it through the courts.

 

You haven't answered the ? of why you want the passports. Are you planning a trip? Have you written to your ex, saying that you'd like to do X trip with the children and ask him for his consent to bring the children overseas for that trip. Have you proposed make-up time for him if you are going to eat into his time? Have you suggested skype calls for the kids with their Dad while they are away?

 

What exactly are you looking for the family court to do? The court will probably ask the above questions of you.

 

I suggest you take a look at mensline.org,au and the forum on there. Although it is a men's support group, it will give you a better response from people who have more experience of the family courts than the PIO audience. It will also help you understand Dad's perspective. I try to approach these issues by removing the gender from the equation (ie Parent 1 and Parent 2 rather mother and father).

 

I did see a case where a judge lambasted Parent 1 for not signing a passport application to enable a teenager to go on a family holiday with Parent 2 and relations (grandparents, cousins etc). The judge ordered Parent 1 to sign the application there and then in court. The teenager had a fractured relationship with Parent 1 already and barely spoke to them. By denying him this holiday, it was not going to help the repair the relationship.

 

Finally, child support has nothing to do with your issue and you need to separate it. The CSA will take appropriate action to recover owned child support if your raise it with them (including garnishing salary and taking money from his bank account if needed)

 

Happy to take this offline if you like and try and help you negotiate a satisfactory solution for you.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Collie

[Nemesis]

It may be that their UK passports are needed for an Aus citizenship application? The OP did mention about applying for citizenship later in the year in the first post. She doesn't mention about trying to leave Aus to return to the UK.

And we all know how Oz loves its ID rules. If the kids don't hVe a copy of their only official ID, their UK passports, they are going to have issues at some point -school trips, bank accounts, club memberships etc etc. They need both parents to have a copy of their ID just to make life easy, even if they never plan to actually travel.