Physics Degree ANU, Melbourne or Durham?

[mandymark]

Hi

 

We are Permanent Resident visa holders but our 17 year old son is due to finish his A-levels (Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry) this year and has offers for MPhys (4 year Master's Degree) at 4 different universities in the UK, including Durham.

 

Now for the dilemma - as our visa is due to expire at the end of next year, he doesn't want to feel that he has wasted the opportunity to study in Australia and finds the thought of this opportunity more exciting than studying in the UK.

 

We really would like to hear from anyone else that may have been in this situation. We are aware that he would only have to pay domestic fees but wouldn't be entitled to any loans therefore (my understanding is) we would have to pay all fees in advance. The actual tuition fees seem to be lower than the UK although accommodation may be more expensive. How do people in our situation generally fund this without access to student loans?

 

What about reputation? How does a degree from say Durham, compare to ANU or Melbourne for Physics? He is predicted to achieve A*, A*, A*, A.

 

As the application procedure does not open until August for Australia, we cannot see how he can turn down his UK offer as he doesn't want to consider taking a gap year and cannot presume that he will be accepted for a place at either ANU or Melbourne. He is due to start university here in Sep/October this year therefore if he were to apply for a place at an Australian university, the outcome wouldn't be known by the time he is due to start his degree in the UK.

 

Incidentally, as a family, we are all still living the UK, planning to start looking at work availability in Australia towards the end of this year with the possibility of moving out mid 2016.

 

I'd be really grateful for any advice or information! Thanks in advance.

[caramac]

If he gets his predicted grades he'll be very attractive to any university, in the UK or Aus. The (UK) grades needed at Australian universities are generally lower than needed at the best UK ones.

ANU and Melbourne are definitely 'up there' with the likes of Durham. I would have no qualms about my kids going to either (or most unis in Aus).

[mandymark]

Thanks very much for the reply Caramac. Deep down, I would probably like him to study in Australia but I do have concerns primarily about funding and the logistics:

 

1. How do permanent residents (not Australian citizens) generally fund their child's education without access to student loans?

2. If he were to apply to an Australian University, as there is no guarantee to entry, he will still have to accept and start his degree within the UK later this year.

 

Anyone got any experience of this? Thanks.

[caramac]

With PR he will be considered a domestic student, so you could either pay up front or get HECs assistance

 

http://www.anu.edu.au/study/apply/are-you-a-domestic-or-international-student

 

http://futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/admissions/fees/ug-dom

 

He could accept his place at Durham, but can withdraw upto the start date (but make sure Student Finance know asap!), or he can accept then ask for his place to be deferred so at least he has a back up plan, just in case....

 

We went through all this last year - my daughter was offered an unconditional place at Birmingham, got cold feet that that was where she wanted to be and phoned them a couple of weeks before the start date. She managed to stop the loan being paid and then reapplied for different unis for this year. It was all very simple really.

[mandymark]

Hi again

 

I've just had a quick look again and I don't believe that we would be entitled to get HEC (loan) assistance as they only seem to offer help to PR holders who need to do bridging study http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist so I just don't know how we could fund the fees which, presumably include the accommodation as well as the tuition fees so in the region of £15k per year (rough estimate).

 

I know that he could accept his place at Durham but I don't think that the outcome of any potential Australian application would be known by the time he's due to start. He is quite certain that he doesn't want to take a gap year or defer any place in the UK so the only option we can see is for him to start his degree within the UK and I know that UK student finance would have kicked into place by then.

 

Is your daughter studying somewhere else in the UK from this September/October then? Did she consider Australian universities?

[caramac]

It's probably a good idea for him to contact the unis directly to find out exactly what he's entitled to, but I saw that link you've posted, then checked directly with the unis. They do seem to contradict each other. We're citizens, so it's not something we have to think about.

 

There's also a company -http://www.studyoptions.com who have open days around the UK where representatives from Australian universities who he can talk to face to face about what the best course of action would be. We (middle daughter and I) went to one in London last year and it was quite useful.

 

She decided against going to Melbourne in the end - we weren't there and wouldn't be for most of her undergrad years, so her accommodation costs were going to be MUCH higher than they are here. It works very differently from here. She's now at Bristol.

The eldest, who did have a gap year, is at UCL doing a similar course to the one she refused at B'ham. I'm about to start the whole rigmarole again with the youngest!

 

I don't know how you'd get around him not wanting to do a gap year, except to say I think he'd be pretty much assured of a place at a good Aus uni with his grades, so he could probably take the risk if he's that determined, but it is a risk and he may end up having to take one anyway!

If he does start at Durham (or wherever) and then moves, he'll be stuck with repaying his loan which would be a shame.

 

link doesn't seem to have worked. Try again

 

http://www.studyoptions.com

Edited March 23, 2015 by caramac

[Paul1Perth]

If you end up coming out here it seems sense that your son should study at one of the Uni's here. I don't think it matters much which one, there are 3 universities here in WA, Curtin, UWA and Edith Cowan. The company I work for has grads from all 3 and there really doesn't seem to be much of a difference in quality of graduate. I think it's more to do with how the graduate applies themselves when they get a job opportunity.

 

UWA probably has the highest profile and best reputation and it certainly is a nice Uni with lovely grounds, building and facilities, the other 2 Uni's are newer and the Edith Cowan campus in Joondalup is beautiful. Don't know that much about Curtin.

 

Student life here seems a lot different than the UK. Most students seem to go to a local Uni and stay at home with their parents. I guess these days it makes sense and would be a lot cheaper than coming out with a massive loan to pay back. Pity though, it used to be the whole experience of leaving home and going to Uni that was the highlight.

 

Where are you thinking of settling? I'm sure there will be an option for a local Uni and for your son to stay at home, if he fancies it. Might be he wants to go away but the costs would be a lot more.

 

You are a fair way of getting here and getting a job yet. I would be accepting the place in the UK first. He can always change his mind.

 

Unless it's changed a lot there was an awful lot of drinking and having a good time at uni. Freshers balls, happy hours in the Uni bar, bands on, discos at the weekend, being in student digs was great, obviously female students and a lot of sleeping around, all part of the experience. Here the students don't seem to get up to anywhere near as much as we used to in the UK. My eldest is 26, he did an apprenticeship as a sparkie but a lot of his mates went to Uni. They all stayed home while they did the degree, most of it was over the internet, they didn't go into campus very much and certainly didn't drink and party anywhere near as much as when I went to Birmingham in the 80's.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Paul1Perth

[LKC]

I would give the uni's a ring or send an email to find out what you need to know. I've just started a BA, and although I'm a citizen and so was in a different situation, when I was sorting out my application I spoke to the uni a few times and found them to be really helpful. It was a different uni to the couple you've mentioned, but I would think that they all have dedicated admissions teams. I get a Commonwealth Supported Place (as I believe your son would), but I didn't apply for the loan and just pay my fees upfront at the start of each semester. I think my fees end up as about $780 per subject per semester (I am doing part time, so I do two units a semester, full time would be four units), but that is for a BA, so your sons course may be more than this. I am also a stay at home mum, so my living costs are covered by my OH's salary, obviously you would have to factor those in too.

[newjez]

Durham is a pretty good uni. Hard to turn that down.

[Guest littlesarah]

HECS-HELP (i.e. a loan) can only be obtained for citizens, though permanent residents only pay 'domestic student' fees regardless of citizenship status.

 

Quote: 'If you are an Australian citizen or the holder of anAustralian permanent humanitarian visa (who meets theresidency requirements), then you may be eligible forHECS-HELP assistance. If you are a New Zealand citizenor the holder of an Australian permanent visa you are NOTeligible for HECS-HELP. You must pay your whole studentcontribution amount upfront in full to the university by thecensus date. No Government assistance is available toyou to pay your student contribution.' Link: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist/HelpfulResources/Documents/2015%20HECS-HELP%20Brochure.pdf (see page 4)

Edited March 30, 2015 by littlesarah
typo!

[Quoll]

I don't thnk either of my boys would recommend ANU although both went there some years ago - both objected to the occasional group grading process which meant that they were often the only focussed Native English speakers in their group and therefore the ones to have to do all the work. Neither did physics though so faculties may have different methods of assessment but it appeared that they were desperate to get their International students through even if they had poor levels of English. I'd be inclined for Durham if only because you'll get an honours degree in 3 yrs not the 4 it will take in Aus.

[VERYSTORMY]

To be blunt. I would say Durham (though what other Unis has he had offers from?)

 

I deal with a lot of Oz science grads and to be honest, i find the undergrad quality shocking. Post grad degrees are excellent.

[Guest]

If you value rankings, Durham is Worst out of the list on the worldwide rankings by the times

 

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

Edited March 30, 2015 by Guest

[caramac]

To be fair, those rankings should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I've done the rounds of univeristy visits with two of my kids and every single one has claimed to be in the top whatever in various league tables/rankings. None of them is lying - they are in the top whatever, but depending on what's being measured and by whom.

You should go with the one that best suits what you're looking for, by course content, by where you can see yourself living for the next three or four years and by just by getting the right 'feel' from a place.

My daughters both turned down Durham, despite it's reputation. One felt the city was too small and is now in London. The other felt their attitude was too high handed and she didn't like the department she was applying to. She felt that their department wasn't as well resourced as others she visited - she wanted lots of 'toys' to play with.

[VERYSTORMY]

If you value rankings, Durham is Worst out of the list on the worldwide rankings by the times

 

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

 

I take the ranking with HUGE pinches of salt - actually mining excavator loads.

 

My department was slammed the year i graduated for poor employability of its grads. We found that really funny as every single one of us had a job lined up and the lowest starting salary was about 35k pounds. The issue was that most, such as myself, were away working out of the country or offshore, when the survey was sent out. So, we were all marked by the Guardian as not being in full time work.

 

Yet, anywhere i go world wide, the people within the industry know the department and its course - there is a good reason why it is the preferred dept by a number of the worlds largest resource companies. But, that measurement is not available in the stats.

 

My advice, is to speak to the Unis and ask good searching questions about employment after graduation. Do, not assume an "old" uni is the best just because it is old - it is well known in my area that the worst course in the UK is Cambridge

[Diane]

If he gets his predicted grades he'll be very attractive to any university, in the UK or Aus. The (UK) grades needed at Australian universities are generally lower than needed at the best UK ones..

 

I wonder why that is? Seem to hear about lots and lots of UK students getting three or four A*s in their A Levels, but the number of Australian students getting higher than say a 95 ATAR is quite few and far between. I'm sure it's not because the Australian students are any less bright/educated - and as the parent of two who have graduated from the Australian system I would say the work seems of a very high standard and only the very brightest with across the range skills get a high ATAR.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not lessening the achievements of English students in any way, but everyone I speak to/hear from with teens in the UK seems to almost expect at least two, three or even four A*s....

 

For those in the UK, the ATAR system works on a grading basis, so if you get say 96 ATAR, you are in the top 4% of that year's graduating cohort across the whole of Australia. (97 = top 3% etc etc) The highest score you can achieve is 99.9% I think (might be 99.5%) and only a handful maybe in each state - usually from the top schools - will actually get this mark. Seems like even those schools with less than stellar results normally in the UK have a dozen or more on 3 or 4 A*s and the rest As...

[caramac]

I'm not really sure. Supply and demand perhaps? Popular courses at the 'best' unis are obviously oversubscribed, so they demand the highest grades (along with the extras - EPQ, DofE, voluntary and community service, etc, etc...). Maybe the Australian unis aren't quite so oversubscribed?

We were also told at the open day we went to in London, that A levels are a higher level than the Aus equivalents simply because they come after more years of education, so they can accept lower grades. Obviously that's not a reflection on how bright or educated the students are. Our friends' daughter scored 99.5 last year and she's always been a bright cookie!

 

There are definitely variations in grade offers here though. Our middle one had a variety of offers from Bristol (where she is now), AAA, A*AB, AAB as long as she got and A in her EPQ. Others on her course weren't offered that flexibility and had to offer the highest grades. The unis seem know who they want, so make offers based on that. The lower ranked unis would have been happy with BBB or lower for a similar course. Melbourne offered her BBC and I definitely don't think its because it's not as good - I'd have been very happy for her to go there and we're looking at it again for our youngest.

Our eldest had two unconditional offers based solely on her predicted grades and her application. Apparently her personal statement was the stand out thing for her. Like you, she refused to consider Oxbridge because, for her course, student satisfaction was very low and the language teaching not as good as where she is now.

The A* is less common than people would have you believe too. Students have to achieve over 90% in every paper to get one, so not that easy.

Im not really sure that I like the Aus system better. Students one year might get an ATAR of 99.95 one year because the cohort is small (as in WA last year), or they're at a lower level than another year. With a different cohort that same student may 'only' score 90. I know the unis can change their 'clearly in' score to reflect that, but I don't think it's any more a perfect way of assessing ability than A levels.

Let's face it, it's only another hurdle to jump to get onto the next stage, whatever the system is! :wink: