fletchaman Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'm not sure I understand your issue. To qualify, you need to get 60+ points in a combination of age, qualifications, experience and English. That applies to everyone. The fact that you happen to come from an English speaking country gives you an easier time to get the English points. Do you think you should have a lower points threshold simply because you're from a country with English as a mother tongue? And I've read more than a few posts from applicants who didn't need to sit the IELTS to get enough points to apply, so it's definitely possible. My point is let me show you Highest education level = Doctorate = 20 points Best Age = 26-32 = 30 points Speaking the Queens English = 0 points (Level 6 being someone coming from an English speaking country) Best Experience = 8 out of 10 years = 15 Points so the calculation above does indeed give you 65 points, the only problem is the individual could never in a month of Sundays earn 8 out of 10 years experience at the age of 26 to 32 the actual Doctorate is 7 years study, but if you reduce the qualification you reduce the points, if you increase the age to get the experience, you reduce the points. So as you can see 60 points is impossible so why do they not just make it level 7 minimum as this is what they really want, that would then make the points system achievable, as they would dish out the 10 points the the 32 year old Doctorate from an English speaking, or non English speaking country would need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I don't see anything ridiculous about it. Australia wants migrants to speak the national language and the better somebody speaks it the more they are rewarded in terms of points. I think to draw a parallel on any level with slavery, suffrage and equal pay is rather daft myself. Ok Pumpkin we have done the ANMAC assessment, now for everyone living in an English or non English country to pass this assessment you are required to achieve level 7 IELTS Academic, yet as we live in New Zealand ( originally from the UK) we do not have to take this test, we pass it straight away purely for being here. so does that mean my command of the English language is better than yours, because I now not only call them Flip Flops but I also call them Jandals!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 It is very simple. They want maximum benefit to the economy. The older you are the less years of being productive and paying taxes you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echidna66 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Older people are more worldy wise and less easy to control.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Lol. Yes I would rather pay £140 to sit IELTS, and gain 20 bonus points than come on a sponsored visa. A sponsored visa would leave me firstly not having permanent residency. And secondly having to pay for my daughters schooling at a damn site (sight?) more than £140. Have a read up on different visa types. There are two employer sponsored visas which are perminant. I'm on one of these. I was never on a temp sponsored visa first. I didn't have to do the English test and if I had kids I wouldn't have to pay for their schooling any more than another pr. The op was saying that job offers were not taken into account, but why should they be when you can get a whole different visa without any need for points testing (perminant visa too)? I went to a dr here when I first got pregnant and he did not understand what I was talking about as his English wasn't good enough! When I asked him some questions he told me to look it up on the Internet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 My point is let me show you Highest education level = Doctorate = 20 points Best Age = 26-32 = 30 points Speaking the Queens English = 0 points (Level 6 being someone coming from an English speaking country) Best Experience = 8 out of 10 years = 15 Points so the calculation above does indeed give you 65 points, the only problem is the individual could never in a month of Sundays earn 8 out of 10 years experience at the age of 26 to 32 the actual Doctorate is 7 years study, but if you reduce the qualification you reduce the points, if you increase the age to get the experience, you reduce the points. There are other ways to get points - e.g. partner with a skill in demand. And it is possible for someone to be aged 31, have 8 years of work experience and a doctorate, albeit not in a medical field. You'd do that by studying part time whilst working. Plenty of people do that. The bottom line, though, is that for some professions - and a medical practitioner is one - Australia wants demonstrated proficiency in English. The cost of IELTS is a drop in the ocean when emigrating and as others have said, if you already speak good English then paying GBP140 for extra points is a gift from Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 There are other ways to get points - e.g. partner with a skill in demand. And it is possible for someone to be aged 31, have 8 years of work experience and a doctorate, albeit not in a medical field. You'd do that by studying part time whilst working. Plenty of people do that. The bottom line, though, is that for some professions - and a medical practitioner is one - Australia wants demonstrated proficiency in English. The cost of IELTS is a drop in the ocean when emigrating and as others have said, if you already speak good English then paying GBP140 for extra points is a gift from Heaven. So like i said in previous post if that is so, why do you being a person from UK, Canada, USA have to do IELTS Level 7 academic for ANMAC assessment yet I don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Ok Pumpkin we have done the ANMAC assessment, now for everyone living in an English or non English country to pass this assessment you are required to achieve level 7 IELTS Academic, yet as we live in New Zealand ( originally from the UK) we do not have to take this test, we pass it straight away purely for being here. so does that mean my command of the English language is better than yours, because I now not only call them Flip Flops but I also call them Jandals!! I shall once again comment on the points based immigration system , although after this you really are going to just have to read the previous posts again because enough people have tried to explain it to you. And to above, I am not going to comment as I am not familiar with the workings of ANMAC. You are aware that ANMAC and immigration are not the same thing though aren't you? ANMAC is a nursing registration body or something, definitely not immigration and the set their own rules for passing skills assessment. My relevant skills assessing body has a particular rule I don't agree with either, but I won't go into it now. So back to immigration. Australia has a points based immigration system, there are certain things they value, these include: - English language. They like people to be able to speak English, even doctors. They like migrants to speak English so badly that they award points for it. A passport is not evidence of English language skills and even if it was, it would be discriminatory to award points to passport holders of one country but not another. So they get comfort over English language skills through an English test. Just like they insist applicants evidence their skills through a skills assessment (which you also have to pay for). - Age. They have a preference or a younger migrant, more working and tax paying years left in them. Not too young though as they might not bring enough experience into the country in that case. - Qualifications. They like smart or otherwise well qualified people. - Work experience. Well it is a skilled migrant visa after all. They award points for all these things (and a few others). They are not putting age before experience (per your tread title), there are points for both. There is no singular answer to what is the right criteria for immigration but most people can understand the system, it is transparent and it is entirely up to the migrant what points they claim for. I am still baffled as to what you are so upset and angry about though. But please do not start a petition to get rid of IELTS and points, you won't win many friends as most of us have the mental capacity to understand that it is an absolute gift and GBP125 well spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 why do you being a person from UK, Canada, USA have to do IELTS Level 7 academic for ANMAC assessment yet I don't? Because Australia and New Zealand are culturally similar enough to have confidence in mutually recognising each others' nursing eligibility. If you are deemed fit to meet the standards in one country, you are deemed fit to meet them in the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 I shall once again comment on the points based immigration system , although after this you really are going to just have to read the previous posts again because enough people have tried to explain it to you. And to above, I am not going to comment as I am not familiar with the workings of ANMAC. You are aware that ANMAC and immigration are not the same thing though aren't you? ANMAC is a nursing registration body or something, definitely not immigration and the set their own rules for passing skills assessment. My relevant skills assessing body has a particular rule I don't agree with either, but I won't go into it now. So back to immigration. Australia has a points based immigration system, there are certain things they value, these include: - English language. They like people to be able to speak English, even doctors. They like migrants to speak English so badly that they award points for it. A passport is not evidence of English language skills and even if it was, it would be discriminatory to award points to passport holders of one country but not another. So they get comfort over English language skills through an English test. Just like they insist applicants evidence their skills through a skills assessment (which you also have to pay for). - Age. They have a preference or a younger migrant, more working and tax paying years left in them. Not too young though as they might not bring enough experience into the country in that case. - Qualifications. They like smart or otherwise well qualified people. - Work experience. Well it is a skilled migrant visa after all. They award points for all these things (and a few others). They are not putting age before experience (per your tread title), there are points for both. There is no singular answer to what is the right criteria for immigration but most people can understand the system, it is transparent and it is entirely up to the migrant what points they claim for. I am still baffled as to what you are so upset and angry about though. But please do not start a petition to get rid of IELTS and points, you won't win many friends as most of us have the mental capacity to understand that it is an absolute gift and GBP125 well spent. Why do you insist of telling me i am upset or angry? I am purely putting my opinion across and having a debate about it you all believe that having to pay this extra is part and parcel of the immigration process, but why is it not transparent in the same way as you have to be skills assessed, you have to be police checked, you have to have a medical. It says you have to be Level 6 IELTS, what it doesn't say is you actually have to be at least Level 7 to get enough points to get into the system. Noone has of yet showed me how a single individual can obtain 60 points using the Immigration's criteria, without having to do more than the requirements, if someone had showed me that we would not now be on page 4 of this discussion. I do actually feel for the people who pay so much try to get over, and are forced to pay even more be it £125 or £200 that it costs down her it is still an added expense, the criteria should not force you to do because you have aged whilst gaining the experience required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mxmanus Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Ok Pumpkin we have done the ANMAC assessment, now for everyone living in an English or non English country to pass this assessment you are required to achieve level 7 IELTS Academic, yet as we live in New Zealand ( originally from the UK) we do not have to take this test, we pass it straight away purely for being here. so does that mean my command of the English language is better than yours, because I now not only call them Flip Flops but I also call them Jandals!! I take it you have failed to get all 8s in the IELTS or you wouldn't be moaning about the right and wrong of taking it!! I suggest you go and revise it and pass it lol. Like we all had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 I take it you have failed to get all 8s in the IELTS or you wouldn't be moaning about the right and wrong of taking it!! I suggest you go and revise it and pass it lol. Like we all had to. No I haven't I am a NZ citizen so do not have to go through it, under the Trans Tasman agreement I am purely looking from the outside in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mxmanus Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 No I haven't I am a NZ citizen so do not have to go through it, under the Trans Tasman agreement I am purely looking from the outside in Then there is no point to your argument. Just let everyone try and get their visas. Whatever the rules. Hope you enjoy NZ m8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Then there is no point to your argument. Just let everyone try and get their visas. Whatever the rules. Hope you enjoy NZ m8 So what your saying is unless it is happening to me i am not allowed an opinion, I merely asked a question, gave an example, and expected a discussion about the points system, not whether it is a bargain and a privilege to be able to take an additional test. I read a hell of alot of peoples disappointment at missing out on this test and taking it numerous amounts of times to get those additional points because it is un-achievable without doing it, and some people are academics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benthomas010 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 So what your saying is unless it is happening to me i am not allowed an opinion, I merely asked a question, gave an example, and expected a discussion about the points system, not whether it is a bargain and a privilege to be able to take an additional test. I read a hell of alot of peoples disappointment at missing out on this test and taking it numerous amounts of times to get those additional points because it is un-achievable without doing it, and some people are academics. Passed it first time :-) L 9, S 9, R 8.5, W 8. Apart from the writing I'm amazed any native speaker - especially anyone having to sit academic for their career - could possibly fail this exam. Even the writings not that difficult if you know the format the expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Passed it first time :-) L 9, S 9, R 8.5, W 8. Apart from the writing I'm amazed any native speaker - especially anyone having to sit academic for their career - could possibly fail this exam. Even the writings not that difficult if you know the format the expect. Well done you, and a fail is a fail whatever category you miss out on, so you could speak like lady farkwar but because you cannot write in report format , then thank you for your custom please come again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Well done you, and a fail is a fail whatever category you miss out on, so you could speak like lady farkwar but because you cannot write in report format , then thank you for your custom please come again Why belittle the opinion of someone who has actually taken the test? You have said you haven't, so why dismiss the opinion of someone who HAS experience of what YOU want to debate? Could it be because it conflicts with your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Why belittle the opinion of someone who has actually taken the test? You have said you haven't, so why dismiss the opinion of someone who HAS experience of what YOU want to debate? Could it be because it conflicts with your argument? How am I belittling anyone by saying well done!! I saw what scores Benthomas010 got and thought it deserved a well done, some people on here need to take a chill pill. And no need to shout words. I was not debating the IELTS test I was initially debating the fact that because you require age to get experience, it is impossible to get 60 points from the standard immigration criteria QUOTE"Is obtaining the actual points without having to obtain additional points actually doable?"it then went off on Australian wanting everyone to speak, write, read, listen very well all i wanted was someone to show me how anyone can get 60 points without going outside the basic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Grey Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Yes it's possible and common to get 60 points without the IELTS. Remember until recently the benchmark was 65 so it's actually been made easier. Australia has always wanted to attract young, highly qualified, skilled professionals from places like the UK, Ireland, USA & Canada. The points test reflects that preference. They really do not care about the fairness of the system, all they care about is the system suiting their goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Yes it's possible and common to get 60 points without the IELTS. Remember until recently the benchmark was 65 so it's actually been made easier. Australia has always wanted to attract young, highly qualified, skilled professionals from places like the UK, Ireland, USA & Canada. The points test reflects that preference. They really do not care about the fairness of the system, all they care about is the system suiting their goal. Thank you Adam for answering my initial question without chastising me for IELTS :smile: I have done so many scenarios to calculate for 60 points and i have so far not found a way to get it without either having a partner to gain 5 points or doing the IELTS, as you have to have obtained a degree by the time you are 22, then obtain a position straight away to gain the experience points, to hit the best age bracket for points, but maybe I am missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blossom Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 And of course state sponsorship.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 How am I belittling anyone by saying well done!! I saw what scores Benthomas010 got and thought it deserved a well done, some people on here need to take a chill pill. And no need to shout words. I was not debating the IELTS test I was initially debating the fact that because you require age to get experience, it is impossible to get 60 points from the standard immigration criteria QUOTE"Is obtaining the actual points without having to obtain additional points actually doable?"it then went off on Australian wanting everyone to speak, write, read, listen very well all i wanted was someone to show me how anyone can get 60 points without going outside the basic You just don't get this. Australian immigration wants people to speak English. They actually want this and they want proof. Your comments about "obtaining actual points without having to obtain ADDITIONAL points" is just illogical and really pretty stupid. All points require something, be it age, qualification, work experience, get state sponsorship, family sponsorship or indeed be able to speak the language. All points need to be obtained. Skills assessment needs to be obtained, sponsorship needs to be obtained, medical and police clearance needs to be obtained. Why is obtaining proof of English ability any different to obtaining any of those other things in your mind? What exactly is it you are upset about? Five pages on and you are still ranting on about something that nobody can make sense of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Thank you Adam for answering my initial question without chastising me for IELTS :smile: I have done so many scenarios to calculate for 60 points and i have so far not found a way to get it without either having a partner to gain 5 points or doing the IELTS, as you have to have obtained a degree by the time you are 22, then obtain a position straight away to gain the experience points, to hit the best age bracket for points, but maybe I am missing something Oh yes you are missing something - IELTS, that is what you are missing. Australia immigration wants people to speak English. Because not everybody does you know. In some countries they speak other languages; French, Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese are just a few, there are many more. But Australia really, really wants you to speak English. So you go and sit a simple test, to prove that you can speak English. It might be obvious to you that you can speak English, but because of all these people in the world that don't speak English and because they don't know you personally, they need you to go and prove that you do speak English. There, has that helped you any more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletchaman Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 You just don't get this. Australian immigration wants people to speak English. They actually want this and they want proof. Your comments about "obtaining actual points without having to obtain points" is just illogical and really pretty stupid. All points require something, be it age, qualification, work experience, get state sponsorship, family sponsorship or indeed be able to speak the language. All points need to be obtained. Skills assessment needs to be obtained, sponsorship needs to be obtained, medical and police clearance needs to be obtained. Why is obtaining proof of English ability any different to obtaining any of those other things in your mind? What exactly is it you are upset about? Five pages on and you are still ranting on about something that nobody can make sense of. Pumpkin why do you constantly talk about me being upset or being angry? did you take a degree in psychology or something? I understand you love your adopted country and would do and pay anything to get there. "obtaining actual points without having to obtain points" did i say this? or did i say without having to obtain additional points? and calling me stupid just shows what a bully you areon this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 What exactly is it you are upset about? Five pages on and you are still ranting on about something that nobody can make sense of. It's even more pointless since the OP is a NZ citizen and doesn't need a visa to live or work in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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