Are you 'comfortable' with Australia's handling of Tamil asylum seekers at sea?

[Paul1Perth]

I expect him to show some statesmanship for once in his life. To show that he views these women as fellow members of the human race.

 

It's not much to ask, for a normal person

 

A "normal person" in my opinion wouldn't threaten suicide and abandon her kids to who knows what fate. Surely they are better off in the camp at least alive, together, being fed clothed and educated, than dead. They are pathetic.

[Parley]

I expect him to show some statesmanship for once in his life. To show that he views these women as fellow members of the human race.

 

It's not much to ask, for a normal person

 

He has responded entirely appropriately.

I do not want every asylum seeker pretending self harm or actually doing it.

[Harpodom]

Do I need to spell it out ?

Calling someone a reptilian creature is hardly a compliment.

 

Its my opinion of a person who, unless I'm mistaken, is not a member on PIO.

 

I seem to remember you expressing some fairly unsavoury views about Julia Gillard, but as I assume she is also not on PIO, I didn't report it to the mods.

[Harpodom]

A "normal person" in my opinion wouldn't threaten suicide and abandon her kids to who knows what fate. Surely they are better off in the camp at least alive, together, being fed clothed and educated, than dead. They are pathetic.

 

He has responded entirely appropriately.

I do not want every asylum seeker pretending self harm or actually doing it.

 

Both of you show a total lack of ability to express empathy.

 

I'm sure they're not doing it for a laugh.

 

Imagine the psychological hell a mother must be in to decide to take her own life in the belief that it might give her child some sort of future?

[Harpodom]

 

@parleycross, do you think visa overstayers should be sent to Manus?

[Paul1Perth]

Both of you show a total lack of ability to express empathy.

 

I'm sure they're not doing it for a laugh.

 

Imagine the psychological hell a mother must be in to decide to take her own life in the belief that it might give her child some sort of future?

 

I'm sure they're not doing it for a laugh either. You would have to question there state of mind. Who knows what they are thinking? They might be getting advice from some lunatic elements for them to give it a try. They might think they will be going straight to heaven when they die, unlike us poor shmucks who just believe when you're gone your gone for good.

[Paul1Perth]

@parleycross, do you think visa overstayers should be sent to Manus?

 

No, they should be sent back to their country of origin and I suppose most of them are.

[Parley]

Its my opinion of a person who, unless I'm mistaken, is not a member on PIO.

 

I seem to remember you expressing some fairly unsavoury views about Julia Gillard, but as I assume she is also not on PIO, I didn't report it to the mods.

 

I criticised her a lot for her actions. But I didn't make childish insults.

[Harpodom]

I criticised her a lot for her actions. But I didn't make childish insults.

 

Is he your dad or something?

[flag of convenience]

A "normal person" in my opinion wouldn't threaten suicide and abandon her kids to who knows what fate. Surely they are better off in the camp at least alive, together, being fed clothed and educated, than dead. They are pathetic.

 

Just shows how "normal" folk react under duress and in "abnormal" conditions then doesn't it. Being kept alive on rations in an often festering camp, with limited education is hardly anyone's idea of a way to spend a life. I expect the mothers concerned have their own aspirations for there kids future much as anybody. I'm sure your understanding will be much appreciated though.

[Paul1Perth]

Just shows how "normal" folk react under duress and in "abnormal" conditions then doesn't it. Being kept alive on rations in an often festering camp, with limited education is hardly anyone's idea of a way to spend a life. I expect the mothers concerned have their own aspirations for there kids future much as anybody. I'm sure your understanding will be much appreciated though.

 

You seem to know a lot about the conditions on the camp flag. Using words like festering and on rations. At least it's probably a lot better than where they have come from, where I'm sure the government wouldn't have given two hoots whether they starved to death, their kids survived or not.

[flag of convenience]

I hear the torturers "as you call them have refused to have them back anyway. Maybe they'll get sent back to India where they left from?

 

If India will have them. No compulsion for that country to take then in. A lot of game playing I expect will pursue now, as the 67 odd Abbott spin doctors, work to make the best outcome for government from a poor deal they've been dealt. Somehow not embarrassing their good mates in Sri Lanka will be top of the pack. Hence a Lankan refusal to accept to pre-empt any potential court verdict. Especially not wanting embarrassment with Camp Commandant Morrison paying homage and supplying gun boats to the regime there.

[flag of convenience]

You seem to know a lot about the conditions on the camp flag. Using words like festering and on rations. At least it's probably a lot better than where they have come from, where I'm sure the government wouldn't have given two hoots whether they starved to death, their kids survived or not.

 

Yes I am aware of conditions in camps but not Tamil Nadu in particular but am certainly requesting some further background from sources aware of what's happening on the ground there. Other camps are to differing degrees as described. Australian off shore camps far from flash as well.

[flag of convenience]

He has responded entirely appropriately.

I do not want every asylum seeker pretending self harm or actually doing it.

 

Now here's a brain stomper. How about addressing the situation before it escalates to such a level of helplessness? Pretty radical thinking or what?

[Paul1Perth]

Yes I am aware of conditions in camps but not Tamil Nadu in particular but am certainly requesting some further background from sources aware of what's happening on the ground there. Other camps are to differing degrees as described. Australian off shore camps far from flash as well.

 

They're not meant to be four star hotels flag. Hope your "sources" aren't prone to a bit of exaggeration.

[flag of convenience]

They're not meant to be four star hotels flag. Hope your "sources" aren't prone to a bit of exaggeration.

They are meant to maintain a degree of humanity and human decency. Not places where folk that have broken no law are denied any sense of a future, neither processed nor given any hope. The very least would be to process and return if not in need of refuge and released if judged to be so. Punishing folk by confinement for political gain is a very cowardly not to say dangerous government indeed.

 

No all sources front line warriors, long blooded and of long standing.

[Parley]

Apart from the law about entering Australia legally.

[Paul1Perth]

They are meant to maintain a degree of humanity and human decency. Not places where folk that have broken no law are denied any sense of a future, neither processed nor given any hope. The very least would be to process and return if not in need of refuge and released if judged to be so. Punishing folk by confinement for political gain is a very cowardly not to say dangerous government indeed.

 

No all sources front line warriors, long blooded and of long standing.

 

There are arguments for fast processing and return or visa and then when some are processed and returned quickly, like the Tamils on the boat, there's more uproar. Government can't win whether they keep them in detention for ages while they wait for the long processing times or process them quickly. I'm all for processing them quickly, one way or the other. If the same number of boats keep turning up as recently and they manage to process a lot quickly then they would be on the brink of closing a lot of the camps you dislike down flag.

[Harpodom]

At which point does the process of offshore detention over step the line of what is acceptable?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/self-harm-asylum-seekers-detention-surged-serco-report

 

 

The immigration department was warned that self-harm among asylum seekers in detention – particularly on Christmas Island – had surged since the introduction of mandatory offshore resettlement and would continue to do so, Guardian Australia can reveal.

A leaked, confidential report by Serco – the security company managing all immigration detention centres in Australia – also shows the extraordinary measures being undertaken to tighten security in the detention network, borrowing from military practise and those used by Asio, and the relaxed regulation of the use of force.

 

The report contains previously unseen statistics showing that the rate of self-harm among asylum seekers was six times higher by January 2014 than in July last year, when the former prime minister Kevin Rudd introduced the so-called “PNG solution”.

 

“There has been an increase in self-harm, particularly on Christmas Island where the detainee cohort is most heavily impacted by new policies,” the report warns. It goes on: “as time in detention continues to increase, it is likely that a corresponding increase will be experienced more broadly across the IDN [immigration detention network]”.

 

On Wednesday Tony Abbott said the government would not be held “over a moral barrel” in relation to a group of mothers on Christmas Island who self-harmed and were placed on suicide watch.

 

The report says that since the introduction of mandatory offshore processing and resettlement an “unprecedented risk profile” has arisen, including increased tension, large scale protest, escape attempt, aggression towards staff and self-harm.

 

“It is assessed that as detainees continue to realise their pathway proposition, there will almost certainly be a continued shift in demeanour where detainees may individually, or collectively, attempt to coerce or test policy outcomes through a range of adverse behaviours,” the report states.

 

It documents a series of practices marked “agreed” to clamp down on so-called “non-compliant” asylum seekers, which have been criticised by professor Louise Newman one of Australia’s foremost experts in mental health as “very dangerous”.

 

It is unclear how many of these have been implemented.

 

Non-compliance could be defined as simply not taking part in structured activities in detention centres.

 

The practices include:

 

 

 

• Disciplining asylum seekers who do not participate in “structured day activities” using a “sliding scale of sanctions”. The sanctions, which are not documented in the report, are designed to “guide the thinking and decision making” of asylum seekers. If an asylum seeker does not comply, they will eventually be screened in an “intensive Life Space Interview” by a welfare officer to “ensure the detainee’s position is fully documented”. At the other end of the scale, it is agreed asylum seekers who cooperate should be given “greater rewards” including the use of online shopping.
  

 

 

 

• Introducing an individual risk assessment profile on asylum seekers that “aligns with the Asio Threat Methodology and that was used within the Australian Intelligence Community”. Serco also requests “detailed information on people released from prison” and sent to immigration detention.
  

 

 

 

• Introducing a “largely automated approval framework” for the use of force inside immigration detention, essentially allowing Serco the power to physically restrain asylum seekers – contingent on their “risk rating”, without the need to consult the immigration department as Guardian Australia understands they had done in the past.
  

 

 

 

• Agreeing with the immigration department that the “enhanced escort position” – a controversial elbow and arm lock, which Guardian Australia understands previously had to be approved for use by a Serco manager – be deregulated and “allowed to be used for all detainees who present any capability of escape”. The document states staff will receive extra training to use the lock.
  

 

 

 

• The report also reveals that discussions took place on supplying Serco officers who are part of the Emergency Response Team (ERT) with gas and “non-lethal munitions”. Serco did not support the suggestion, instead calling for better staffing of the teams and more coordination with police.
  

 

Professor Newman, director of the Monash University Centre for Developmental Psychiatry and Psychology told Guardian Australia she had “very serious concerns” about the measures being introduced and the lack of checks and balances that appear to have been established.

 

“The rewards and punishments model shown in the report is an outmoded approach and there’s nothing in there about properly dealing with the obvious issues of distress and breakdown in detention,” she said.

 

Newman said the document highlighted a “military control model” being imposed, “without reference to oversight, governance and with no reference to mental health concerns.”

 

“It reflects that mentality, that distress is not allowed. That distress should be dealt with punishment.”

 

“There’s nothing wrong with writing a framework for non compliant behaviour – but it appears there are no checks and balance like there are outside of detention”.

 

Both the immigration minister, Scott Morrison, and Serco have been contacted for comment

[Paul1Perth]

To say there's supposed to be a lack of information there seems to be a lot of it floating about in the public domain.

[Harpodom]

To say there's supposed to be a lack of information there seems to be a lot of it floating about in the public domain.

Leaked Paul. Leaked..

[Guest]

There are arguments for fast processing and return or visa and then when some are processed and returned quickly, like the Tamils on the boat, there's more uproar. Government can't win whether they keep them in detention for ages while they wait for the long processing times or process them quickly. I'm all for processing them quickly, one way or the other. If the same number of boats keep turning up as recently and they manage to process a lot quickly then they would be on the brink of closing a lot of the camps you dislike down flag.

 

 

Making traumatised people undergo a 4 question video interview whilst still at sea doesn't strike me as a comprehensive or fair assessment of their circumstances Paul. Surely there's a humane way of properly assessing the validity of an applicant's claim without resorting to measures like this, or leaving them to rot in off-shore camps?. Reading the transcript of Scott Morrison's press conference on the subject, what came across was his obstinate resentment towards arrivals by boat. A kind of petty vindictiveness which stems from a position that Australia should not have to deal with such people, coupled with a determination to ensure that they are treated so harshly by Australia that they'll immediately regret ever troubling the Australian Government. If that's the case then why remain signatories to international agreements on taking refugee quotas at all? Why not be brutally honest and just say "We don't want these people, we're not interested in their plight, they need to sort out their own problems or go somewhere else?" Instead of this grudging, mean-spirited, punitive approach that they're currently adopting? Australia clearly doesn't care what the international community thinks of it anyway, so why not be brutally honest? Australian public opinion clearly backs the government on this issue, so it'd probably be a massive vote winner in 2016.

[Guest]

Living in camps? They are considered oppressive and not safe. Over 100,000 live in just 100 camps, they have no right of movement and no freedom.

 

Your 'they' mentality is really unsettling.

While i agree living in a camp is not ideal. How is it fair that the ones that can somehow afford to pay a people smuggler to bring them here should be given priority over those waiting in camps for resettlement. In most cases waiting years.

[Guest]

Perhaps if these people were not left scratching out a life in the camps for years on end these situation wouldn't arise. Why does it take so long for the true refugees to be resettled from the camps? Perhaps the U.N. along with all the countries that offer resettlement should be working on resettling these people more quickly.

[Rallyman]

There is a lot of criticism of the Australian government here ,but how many countries would they have had to pass before actually reaching Australia, from what is in the media , costs to the people smugglers are believed to be from 10k to 15k each so if a family of say 3 or 4 members pay to get on a boat that is un seaworthy it's a serious amount of money.

 

What would be a average wage they could earn in the country they have left.

I think it would take a fair number of years to save that kind of money. Are these people genuine reefugees or economic migrants trying to gain entry illegally as they know full well if they pursued the correct channels they would not get a visa.