VERYSTORMY Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 There is not a lot now that I am willing to get into a dispute about in the Oz / UK thing as I now enjoy living here. But, the building codes are a joke. The one that amazes me no end is the energy efficiency. Why oh why is there not a requirement for all new builds to have solar? Amazing stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 There is not a lot now that I am willing to get into a dispute about in the Oz / UK thing as I now enjoy living here. But, the building codes are a joke. The one that amazes me no end is the energy efficiency. Why oh why is there not a requirement for all new builds to have solar? Amazing stupidity. Solar energy panels are still a confusion - with the recent lowering pf payback it seems the cost it takes to install can take many years to yield a payback. Are they really that cost efficient once you work out the cost of installation Vs discount received? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 There is not a lot now that I am willing to get into a dispute about in the Oz / UK thing as I now enjoy living here. But, the building codes are a joke. The one that amazes me no end is the energy efficiency. Why oh why is there not a requirement for all new builds to have solar? Amazing stupidity. Energy efficiency, you're a comedian VS !! I remember our 2007 self build in the UK being air leakage tested, now that's an eye opening test. It would be a farce to even attempt it here !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Solar energy panels are still a confusion - with the recent lowering pf payback it seems the cost it takes to install can take many years to yield a payback. Are they really that cost efficient once you work out the cost of installation Vs discount received? I assume we are talking PV electric panels which have around a 9-10 year payback period but also solar hot water is a good saver and have it on our new house.......PV to follow ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I assume we are talking PV electric panels which have around a 9-10 year payback period but also solar hot water is a good saver If something takes 9 - 10 years to get back any money I'm not sure that is a great return on your investment? Also what if some panels need replacing or if tariffs change and the payback is reduced further? I'm not being deliberately argumentative I just really don't understand how there are any benefits to putting these panels up? I keep wanting to prove myself wrong as I'd like them but so far I'm not convinced the facts are that they are a genuine cost saving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 There is not a lot now that I am willing to get into a dispute about in the Oz / UK thing as I now enjoy living here. But, the building codes are a joke. The one that amazes me no end is the energy efficiency. Why oh why is there not a requirement for all new builds to have solar? Amazing stupidity. I've never understood why they don't make roof tiles/corrugated tin out of solar cells. It seems silly to build a roof, then put solar panels on top. Why not build the roof out of solar panels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 If something takes 9 - 10 years to get back any money I'm not sure that is a great return on your investment? Also what if some panels need replacing or if tariffs change and the payback is reduced further? I'm not being deliberately argumentative I just really don't understand how there are any benefits to putting these panels up? I keep wanting to prove myself wrong as I'd like them but so far I'm not convinced the facts are that they are a genuine cost saving? That payback time is very short compared to other home improvements and is based on energy savings not the feed on tariffs, if you can half your electric bill then how is it a bad thing ? PV panels should easily last 20 years barring physical damage. Of course the other part is reducing your contribution to carbon emissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I've never understood why they don't make roof tiles/corrugated tin out of solar cells. It seems silly to build a roof, then put solar panels on top. Why not build the roof out of solar panels? That actually sounds reasonable - maybe cost too much? Or maybe that would be too many panels and there would be too much generated that would be wasted as the energy companies wouldn't need that much? Or what if the energy companies or government don't want everyone to be self sufficient as this would reduce jobs? Who knows...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Some of the UK roof tile companies already sell PV tiles but to cover all the different profiles and colours would make it uneconomic really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 My understanding is that tariffs have recently changed and anything you get over and above which you feed back to the electricity companies now generates less monetary payback - so tariffs do play a part. I guess so far every calculation I've seen doesn't show a money saving until many years later and the scheme is relatively new so it's hard to tell at this stage if the panels actually last as long as the time it takes for the payback to occur, taking into consideration maintenance etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckleface Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I've never understood why they don't make roof tiles/corrugated tin out of solar cells. It seems silly to build a roof, then put solar panels on top. Why not build the roof out of solar panels? They do make them and they are available in every state and territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 My understanding is that tariffs have recently changed and anything you get over and above which you feed back to the electricity companies now generates less monetary payback - so tariffs do play a part. I guess so far every calculation I've seen doesn't show a money saving until many years later and the scheme is relatively new so it's hard to tell at this stage if the panels actually last as long as the time it takes for the payback to occur, taking into consideration maintenance etc. Feed in tariffs play a part if you want them too but I was basing the panel cost payback time purely on bill savings, WA feed in tariffs would barely dent this time period now. There are PV panels still going strong after 20 years although the efficiency has improved a lot since the 90's ! Maintenance on PV is virtually nil other than the occasional panel clean. Hot water panels are more prone to issues. What is this "scheme" you refer too, are we not discussing the PV panel technology in general ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Feed in tariffs play a part if you want them too but I was basing the panel cost payback time purely on bill savings, WA feed in tariffs would barely dent this time period now.There are PV panels still going strong after 20 years although the efficiency has improved a lot since the 90's ! Maintenance on PV is virtually nil other than the occasional panel clean. Hot water panels are more prone to issues. What is this "scheme" you refer too, are we not discussing the PV panel technology in general ? Sorry it's difficult to put into words what we'd say in conversation; what I am trying to explain is that in order to calculate the cost Vs savings of installing the panels you would have to work out the following; 1. Cost of panels + installation + out of pocket expenses over the term of payback 2. Anticipated savings + amount of usage + any possible residue that you can sell back to energy company to further reduce costs if poss 3. The $ amount the energy company will pay for residual electric which is sold back to the energy company. When all the above has been taken into consideration the paybacks that I have calculated are negligible at best and not cost effective at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Love to see your figures but hey if you're right then maybe do it for the environment only.........and the capital increase on property value according to the real estate agents ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Love to see your figures but hey if you're right then maybe do it for the environment only.........and the capital increase on property value according to the real estate agents ;-) Yep I agree its deffo environmentally friendly so no argument there mate - but from a cost perspective in MHO it's just never worked out when I check out the facts. As for RE agents & property value: It's only valuable if it's cost effective like I say. RE Agents are like car salesmen - I ignore their white noise and keep on looking at the facts:skeptical: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The $3k I intend to spend on ours will save us $300 a year so we will be saving positive after 10 years, a simple calculation but it works ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 solar.... the knowing call it eco bling. and for the most part it is. it's fact that most of the average energy usage (bill) goes on heating and cooling. spend 3000 on a system that will reduce your energy bills by 300 a year. good but..... what if you spend that 3000 on insulating and draughtproofing your house, slashing your energy bills not even using the 300 in energy you would have saved with the solar, and having a more comfortable house to live in to boot. draughtproofing doesnt show on the outside of the house though, so you dont get the warm fuzzy and show off feeling. the experts agree on one thing, fabric first. get the building envelope correct, then add the bling. its better not to need it, than to generate it. with a well insulated house, an 8 panel system (2KWh) with batteries will run the average household! here in Australia 8 panels reduces the bill but doesn't break even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incata Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 If something takes 9 - 10 years to get back any money I'm not sure that is a great return on your investment? Also what if some panels need replacing or if tariffs change and the payback is reduced further? I'm not being deliberately argumentative I just really don't understand how there are any benefits to putting these panels up? I keep wanting to prove myself wrong as I'd like them but so far I'm not convinced the facts are that they are a genuine cost saving? I think it depends how long you plan to stay in the house. We have worked out (based on our usage) that the panels will pay for themselves in between 4 - 5 years. If we stay in the house for 20 years, we will make a profit and will save a lot of money. However, if we leave in 2 or 3 years, we make a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incata Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 solar.... the knowing call it eco bling. and for the most part it is. it's fact that most of the average energy usage (bill) goes on heating and cooling. spend 3000 on a system that will reduce your energy bills by 300 a year. good but..... what if you spend that 3000 on insulating and draughtproofing your house, slashing your energy bills not even using the 300 in energy you would have saved with the solar, and having a more comfortable house to live in to boot. draughtproofing doesnt show on the outside of the house though, so you dont get the warm fuzzy and show off feeling. the experts agree on one thing, fabric first. get the building envelope correct, then add the bling. its better not to need it, than to generate it. with a well insulated house, an 8 panel system (2KWh) with batteries will run the average household! here in Australia 8 panels reduces the bill but doesn't break even. We have also insulated the house and it has made a huge difference to the temperature inside - both in the summer (now) and in the winter (after we had it installed). Draftproofing is next, when we have the rest of the renovation and building work done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I agree it's best to build better first but volume builders see this as a money maker and of course without the lovely gas central heating in the UK most of the electric is used on heating/ cooling here in Aus. I still believe PV panels are not just bling ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 [Q UOTE=Incata;1936401723]We have also insulated the house and it has made a huge difference to the temperature inside - both in the summer (now) and in the winter (after we had it installed). Draftproofing is next, when we have the rest of the renovation and building work done. What insulation have you put in ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think it depends how long you plan to stay in the house. We have worked out (based on our usage) that the panels will pay for themselves in between 4 - 5 years. If we stay in the house for 20 years, we will make a profit and will save a lot of money. However, if we leave in 2 or 3 years, we make a loss. Will it last that long? What about repairs or replacement costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chardy Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 A lot of the better panels have long warranties and they are maintenance free as have no moving parts and any potential failure is in the inverter not the panels which with a good quality unit is unlikely .........I'm not sure what you've been told if you're expecting maintenance costs ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 A lot of the better panels have long warranties and they are maintenance free as have no moving parts and any potential failure is in the inverter not the panels which with a good quality unit is unlikely .........I'm not sure what you've been told if you're expecting maintenance costs ?? But warranties are only as good as the company - it's not unusual for companies to go bust and the warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on. Are you saying a good quality system will last 20 years with no additional costs anticipated? I'm not being awkward mate I just think people are under the impression you buy a system and once it's installed there are no other maintenance issues or upkeep required and that all companies warranties are kosha. I've lived here long enough to see more companies go bust than I can shake a stick at and shonky equipment that needs upkeep and then there are buy back schemes that promise the world and don't deliver because the power companies decide to reduce the payback amount. I'm not saying solar panels are crap or the schemes won't work - I'm just saying so far I've not been able to look at any facts and see a proper payback and to be honest I would love to be wrong as there's nothing I'd love more than reduce these massive power bills. Like a previous poster says, so far the facts just demonstrate builders bling. I won't give up though as I would seriously like to get a result to be able to buy something that reduces the bills which are mental over here. Thanks for your patience re this mate. I appreciate the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest66881 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I see maintenance issues a bit like pest prevention, you don't keep a spraying you will get bit:wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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