Sammy1 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I wonder how many of the parents supporting this cost saying it's needed in education pay their voluntary contributions. In the school I worked in for 3 years a good 75% of the parents that didn't pay their voluntary contributions were the English immigrants. I pay mine. There are many parents both Aussie and non Aussie that don't pay their voluntary fees. I have lived in mainly Aussie (only) populated areas most of the years I have been in Oz. Non payment of voluntary fees has nothing to do with being a migrant or otherwise. Statistically lower socio schools have a lower payment rate than higher socio schools. This is a shame as it means it further widens the gap between schools. I do support the fees because schools need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Queensland and Vic don't charge No, but others do. It will soon become a uniform requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Hard to put a value on a what good education for our own children would be. I'm sure most people are happy to pay what they can afford, and know they are getting a bargain anyway. Is $4000 an unreasonable contribution per child for non citizens ? Hard to say but it would be a shock if you get it free one year and have to pay the next year. But I'm sure these 457 workers are on excellent salaries and should be able to afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I'm sure most people are happy to pay what they can afford, and know they are getting a bargain anyway. Is $4000 an unreasonable contribution per child for non citizens ? I think the average cost for a school per pupil is about 12k per year. So for every dollar a 457 pays, the state pays 2. Having said that, the state got its' money from the 457s' tax too. It's unfair to spring it on people already here. If you've got two kids you'll have to find 8k in 6 months which is no mean feat. I wonder how quickly and efficiently non-payers will be chased up? The other question is: if 457s are being targeted because they have no form of representation, what's to stop this being extended to PRs too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernbird Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I pay mine. There are many parents both Aussie and non Aussie that don't pay their voluntary fees. I have lived in mainly Aussie (only) populated areas most of the years I have been in Oz. Non payment of voluntary fees has nothing to do with being a migrant or otherwise. Statistically lower socio schools have a lower payment rate than higher socio schools. This is a shame as it means it further widens the gap between schools. I do support the fees because schools need them. Which is why I said in the school I worked in. I couldn't possibly comment on other schools and locations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I think the average cost for a school per pupil is about 12k per year. So for every dollar a 457 pays, the state pays 2. Having said that, the state got its' money from the 457s' tax too. It's unfair to spring it on people already here. If you've got two kids you'll have to find 8k in 6 months which is no mean feat. I wonder how quickly and efficiently non-payers will be chased up? The other question is: if 457s are being targeted because they have no form of representation, what's to stop this being extended to PRs too? A very good reason to get Citizenship ASAP I'd say, worse case scenario four years of paying. Personally it wouldn't bother us as we pay school fees anyway as our son is at private school anyway. $4000 is not a huge amount $76 a week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 As these fees are only targeting 457s , should it be the case for claiming on tax as this is a cost pertaining to their employment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen85 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Question..what are the school fees in the UK? And do you think it reflects the education of children? I constantly hear from people how crappy the english school system is. So why not just pay for better schooling? 457 are generally skilled workers on a decent salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Question..what are the school fees in the UK? And do you think it reflects the education of children? I constantly hear from people how crappy the english school system is. So why not just pay for better schooling? 457 are generally skilled workers on a decent salary. Thing being though it is highly debatable just how much better the Australian education system really is. Those that can afford it increasingly go private so there does appear to be a two tier system in place. The question being would 457s pay the same rate as Aussies for a private education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 A very good reason to get Citizenship ASAP I'd say, worse case scenario four years of paying. Personally it wouldn't bother us as we pay school fees anyway as our son is at private school anyway. $4000 is not a huge amount $76 a week I think you will find that private fees will go up by a comparable amount for private schools. Unlike in the UK, private schools are subsidised on a 'per head" basis by state government and this subsidy wouldn't be paid for children on a 457 and most schools will pass this onto the parents. We were certainly told by one school that the fees would depend on the visa we were on. This is why private school fees are so much less in Australia but going forward they probably won't be for 457 holders. i can't believe this will apply to existing 457 holders and feel very sorry for the families impacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LojaChica Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I don't think a 457 holder (I am one) can argue about this change to the rules. You are always taking a chance on a visa like a 457 so you have to take the rough with the smooth. I agree 100% with the point that if you are only here for a short time, you should pay your way towards things Australians have paid for over a lifetime. I hope to get a PR as I want to stay forever, and when I do, and the commitment of a long term stay is made I will then feel entitled to the same kind of support an Australian is entitled to. It is unfortunate that some folks will suffer as a result of this change, but I think we are all warned quite clearly before you get on a 457 visa that it is a risk in a number of ways. I personally thank myself very lucky that Australians have been willing to allow me to come to their country. I think it is up to me to do something to pay that back, not the other way round. Ditto.............I paid for 3 years before I became PR............I came to NSW so factored that in.......did I like it? probably not but it had to be paid............just saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LojaChica Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Question..what are the school fees in the UK? And do you think it reflects the education of children? I constantly hear from people how crappy the english school system is. So why not just pay for better schooling? 457 are generally skilled workers on a decent salary. Have to disagree with the "generally" part Jen sorry............we were classed as "skilled" 57k per year...........not always the case......schooling was expensive BUT we did it because it's where we wanted to be........like to follow the rules me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Ditto.............I paid for 3 years before I became PR............I came to NSW so factored that in.......did I like it? probably not but it had to be paid............just saying I think the issue here is the rules are changing so people have not been able to factor it in. We're back in the UK now and have decided to continue with private education, as a result we will be living in a very small semi for the foreseeable future - this is our choice about what is best for our family and we have factored the school fees into our budget but of we'd already committed to a big mortgage on a big house and school fees were thrust upon us it could have been very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 As these fees are only targeting 457s , should it be the case for claiming on tax as this is a cost pertaining to their employment You'd have to claim that you require children to do your job. Like you require safety boots, or petrol to get you to a remote job site. I don't think the ATO will buy it. As a PR I don't get any tax relief on materials we buy for school, or for the small contribution that we have to make to send our son to a state school. I'd be interested what would happen if you simply didn't pay. I can't imagine a school would send a child home. And if you're only intending staying for one more year I'm sure you could spin it out til you leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I think the issue here is the rules are changing so people have not been able to factor it in. We're back in the UK now and have decided to continue with private education, as a result we will be living in a very small semi for the foreseeable future - this is our choice about what is best for our family and we have factored the school fees into our budget but of we'd already committed to a big mortgage on a big house and school fees were thrust upon us it could have been very hard. That is what people will have to do, cut their cloth. I've seen too many here flashing the cash on big houses and living in areas they can't afford $76 a week is barely more than a carton of beer. Ultimately though if they don't like it they can always go back to the UK they do have that option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That is what people will have to do, cut their cloth. I've seen too many here flashing the cash on big houses and living in areas they can't afford $76 a week is barely more than a carton of beer. Ultimately though if they don't like it they can always go back to the UK they do have that option. Well it it $76 per child. And probably out of your net income, so more like you have to earn 5k in order to pay the 4k. Personally I think it sets a dangerous precedent. Namely that you can change the rules for foreigners because they can always "Go Home" if they don't like it (and they won't vote for you even if they do like it). I'm not sure what visa type you're on, but what if the govt decides to charge each PR 10k per year "service charge". Would you pay it, or leave? What about 15k, 20k? Is it legitimate to squeeze foreigners til the pips squeak? And considering that a 457 visa is for a maximum of 4 years, if the state govt simply declared no free education for future granted visas, then every 457 would be paying by 2018 at the latest. And I think the vast majority of 457s come here without children anyway. That's part of the reason they're able to relocate so quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernbird Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I think you will find that private fees will go up by a comparable amount for private schools. Unlike in the UK, private schools are subsidised on a 'per head" basis by state government and this subsidy wouldn't be paid for children on a 457 and most schools will pass this onto the parents. We were certainly told by one school that the fees would depend on the visa we were on. This is why private school fees are so much less in Australia but going forward they probably won't be for 457 holders. i can't believe this will apply to existing 457 holders and feel very sorry for the families impacted. I don't think this will happen. Can you imagine the carnage the government will have to deal with if those that can't (and there would be heaps) afford to pay extra private school fees suddenly came out and wanted to join the state system. The government are struggling enough to accommodate the thousands of extra students that will enter the state high school system in 2015. I have one daughter in private and one in state. The state high school my eldest goes to is going to go from 750 too 1100 students in 2015, the extra money that is costing the government for demountable classrooms and extra facilities is enormous. I think the govt would be ill advised, they certainly haven't done that as far as I am aware in the other states that charge this levy to 457 holders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I would have thought most would come without kids on a 457. Who would risk bringing a family over on such a precarious visa? I guess it was looked on as an almost sure way to enter and as such failure to gain PR was not really contemplated by many. As there are close on 9,000 kids in WA schools alone, that is a considerable number. At the same time a number do come with the original intent of being here a year or two, prior to returning to their own countries, so some contribution towards education could be argued. As I mentioned these changes in rules are usually on applicants from a future date not retro. Anyone know for sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Well it it $76 per child. And probably out of your net income, so more like you have to earn 5k in order to pay the 4k. Personally I think it sets a dangerous precedent. Namely that you can change the rules for foreigners because they can always "Go Home" if they don't like it (and they won't vote for you even if they do like it). I'm not sure what visa type you're on, but what if the govt decides to charge each PR 10k per year "service charge". Would you pay it, or leave? What about 15k, 20k? Is it legitimate to squeeze foreigners til the pips squeak? And considering that a 457 visa is for a maximum of 4 years, if the state govt simply declared no free education for future granted visas, then every 457 would be paying by 2018 at the latest. And I think the vast majority of 457s come here without children anyway. That's part of the reason they're able to relocate so quickly. I get your point but PR visa holders are future voters so that's pretty unlikely I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I get your point but PR visa holders are future voters so that's pretty unlikely I'd say. Well......not really. Under current legislation, you can apply for citizenship after 4 years (? I think). So if such a service charge was to come into effect, anyone who's on PR for a while and wanted to save money could apply for citizenship. And then they get to vote. But why would they use that vote to improve the situation for anyone else stuck on PR/TR? Any loss of revenue from the remaining PRs will have to be made up somewhere else? After all "the last one in the balloon pulls up the ladder". Anyway, that's current legislation. The no law against changing laws! Not every country has this automatic pathway to citizenship like Oz. You might have taken PR on the assumption that you could apply for citizenship after a certain period. Others took TR on the assumption that education was provided for their children. I feel sorry for 457s with children. They're being turned into a political scapegoat for any perceived shortcomings in the 457 system. The real abuses were with workers without dependents here, so this rule will do nothing to change that, and may even make things worse. As well as causing financial hardship to families here without any real corresponding benefit to the state or the wider population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen85 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Lesson for all avoid the 457 visa if you can, it would seem this levy is being brought is as maybe a deterrant. WA is already extremely busier than it was 2 years ago and the more 457's that come in the worse everything gets..traffic congestion, strain on school and healthcare systems etc. When these things aren't exactly perfect to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chmaiden Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 It's all about choices. If people choose to live in an expensive area because they like the "village feel" an Sunday morning chai lattes and wide selection of restaurants but then any afford to pay for their kids education then more fool them. Move out to somewhere you can afford and travel that extra distance to work. I that's in the same area, city, or even country then so be it. As a 457 you have to remember that you are effectively a guest in this country. I have absolutely no problems with this policy as I waited the 18 months and spent the large amounts of cash gettin pr before I came over here in the first place. Now a citizen (having lived in other countries on working visas) I fully support the backlash against 457. I have to regularly hire non citizens in my job - their kids education has absolutely nothing to do with me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon4017 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Now a citizen I fully support the backlash against 457. Like I said, "Last one in the balloon pulls up the ladder". I hope it all works out for you. Heaven forbid you ever want to move to another country and start again. You'd be at the mercy of whoever had recently gained citizenship in that country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chmaiden Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 correct - ive never worked in Aus on a temp visa as i took the plunge and got PR before leaving the UK. I have however, worked elsewhere in the world on a working visa, where i was made redundant....and had 2 weeks to get out the country. So I kinda know what i am talking about. I have committed to this country and support its stance in giving people (aussies or PRs) the jobs first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robswife Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 We came over on a 457, several reasons really, we did apply for permanent residency and paid out a hell of a lot of money in the process (family of 4) at the very end medicals/police check etc., etc., etc., all completed and being told on forums "that's it the visa will be through any day now" we were told by diac we were 5 points short and no you can't do anything else but reapply if you can find those 5pts from somewhere as this came through we had birthdays and consequently "lost" points - gutted is a understatement - so our only choice left was employer sponsorship which scarilly happened very quickly, and told by sponsor we can help you gain PR (dangle that carrot) So here we are, a gamble i know and its not been easy to say the least and yes we will pay education fees and are already doing so for eldest to attend tafe, and "voluntary" contributions at school. financially, i said the other day i feel we've committed financial suicide, but we will survive and i will have to find a job, but i keep being told that won't be a problem (by citizens) as there aren't enough nurses here to fill the vacancies in the ever expanding healthcare system and especially in mental health. I don't know what the future will hold, i will be honest and say yes i would like to have pr and stay forever, as a family we are committed to australia and have ploughed a awful lot of money into the local ecconomy, small fry in in the larger scale of things i know.. I just thought i would share our story on why we had to go for 457 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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