Guest guest79615 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 so if someone has no one in their life that cares if their dead or alive..or just no one full stop, is the person who ends their life still selfish?? x Without googling the net looking for statistics & studies to back up my comments...as I've said earlier, my opinion that financially driven suicide is selfish is my opinion...there is no need to suggest that those who do not share your view on suicide and deem it selfish, may very well end up committing suicide themselves through a physchotic episode or breakdown as I'm fully aware suicide can happen to anyone for all matter of reasons...however this doesn't change my personal opinion that it is selfish. When a person commits suicide leaving behind friends and family, those people have to live with the consequences of that person's decision for the rest of their lives, questioning why, blaming themselves...it can end up defining who they are or driving them mad... that is why I think it is selfish...you're not making a choice just about your own life, you are making a choice essentially that affects all the people in your life who will then have to bear the consequences. I think there are two sides to this and although I can sympathise for those who feel they have no way out other than suicide, I empathise much more with those left behind having to re-build their lives that have been shattered with devastation & who until the day they die will continually question why & carry some guilt whether they could have seen it coming or done more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetbelly Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Not trying to convince you to change your opinion Acidglitter, as I totally see your point and can understand it. I don't agree with it but hey, if we all thought the same thing wouldn't life be boring!!! What I will say is, why cannot someone be a bit selfish now and then? I know I am at times. And I don't mean it in a bad way at all. I do my upmost to help others when I can. But sometimes, I need to think about what is best for me and me alone. I suppose by a pure definition (a definition in my head by the way) of selfish that is. But we cannot live our lives for others, no matter who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 so if someone has no one in their life that cares if their dead or alive..or just no one full stop, is the person who ends their life still selfish?? x I guess I can answer for those who have no real inkling as to how low someone can fall as to contemplate suicide..........................of course they are selfish...................someone has to "clean up the mess"................the country is deprived of their taxes and/or they're wasting taxpayer's money blah blah blah. Those who (God forbid) have never experienced such pain, and have little empathy for those who have, will always find a way to condemn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 there is no need to suggest that those who do not share your view on suicide and deem it selfish, may very well end up committing suicide themselves through a physchotic episode or breakdown as I'm fully aware suicide can happen to anyone for all matter of reasons... Do you really think I am that much of a control freak? Side with my opinion or you will end up with the same fate? Jesus wept....get a grip! I have not suggested this. I am a medical professional. It is part of my continuing professional development to research medical journals and studies as part of my reflective practice. I have not made this stuff up and I have certainly not posted it to scare monger people into siding with me. It is there to google if you are interested and it is an educational experience for anyone who wants to gain more insight into this condition. What I have suggested is that any one of us, at any stage of our lives, can go through a life changing experience that can change our mental state in an instant and prevent us from making the right decision. I have had very personal loss from suicide. I do not bear any consequences about his death. I am very sad he is no longer with me and that he felt so much pain in the first place. No one should have to suffer such pain, but just because his pain may not have been physical, it doesn't mean it hurt any less. I lost my mother 3 years ago from a brain hemorrhage. I am also very sad she is no longer with me and suffered pain in the end. I went through the stages of grief with both. Guilt being one of these stages. I blamed myself in both deaths, for different reasons. But ultimately, now all I feel is sadness, which gets easier with time. I no longer question, as I have entered the ''acceptance'' stage. I don't know your background or if you have close personal experience with this so please don't take offence when I say this. You speak about those having to live with someone else's ''selfish'' decision until the day they die? You do not speak for me. That is not how I feel. And having met other families, through my own experience, that is not how they feel either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Derryn Hinch has often stated that he believes suicide is the ultimate civil right. An interesting perspective I suppose. But I can never believe it should happen, but I have felt deep despair in my own life due to relationship breakdown and can understand the feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoman Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 With a recession where so many people's businesses are folding and people losing their jobs, unpaid bills and next to nothing to live on, i can see how people would consider doing something as stupid as this is pure despair but still, there is always some hope. I find it very sad that a perfectly healthy person can choose to take their own life, yet someone may die through unfortunate illness or through tragedy and they do not get that choice. I think suicide is one of the most selfish things anyone can ever do and i think no matter what your circumstance is, how bad things get or seem, there is always an alternative (in my opinion anyway). I find it particularly sad in this day & age that people's sense of pride can over rule their common sense. What ever happened to picking yourself up off the floor, brushing yourself off and starting again? the days of pulling someone aside slapping them and saying snap out of it are long gone, depression causes irrational thoughts, can lead or be caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, and sufferers can believe they are doing the best for their families left behind, they love them so much that by taking their own life means they have to move forward without the person who thinks he/she has failed them. ( a little off topic but high suicide rate of psychologists in oz, 2 recently in wa,will check out uk, its not always financial) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoiam Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 It is despair and lack of hope that leads to a real suicide--of course there are attention seekers who do enough to get to A&E several times and sometime down the line their calculations botch up and 'it' happens. But most of the suicides are an end act--an act of despair and seeing no way down the road---either due to illness like depression(which sucks love and hope out of you) or due to financial and family issues. We cannot and should not judge them -- for each persons story is different and we haven't even walked a few steps in their shoes. I guess this is where spiritual support is necessary. In olden times seeking spiritual support/help was more acceptable in society--but nowadays one has to seemingly battle it out alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Pom Queen Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I have deleted 10 posts on this thread which were just personal b1tching, if you wish to continue take it to pm's or infractions will be issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Do you really think I am that much of a control freak? Side with my opinion or you will end up with the same fate? Jesus wept....get a grip! I have not suggested this. I am a medical professional. It is part of my continuing professional development to research medical journals and studies as part of my reflective practice. I have not made this stuff up and I have certainly not posted it to scare monger people into siding with me. It is there to google if you are interested and it is an educational experience for anyone who wants to gain more insight into this condition. What I have suggested is that any one of us, at any stage of our lives, can go through a life changing experience that can change our mental state in an instant and prevent us from making the right decision. I have had very personal loss from suicide. I do not bear any consequences about his death. I am very sad he is no longer with me and that he felt so much pain in the first place. No one should have to suffer such pain, but just because his pain may not have been physical, it doesn't mean it hurt any less. I lost my mother 3 years ago from a brain hemorrhage. I am also very sad she is no longer with me and suffered pain in the end. I went through the stages of grief with both. Guilt being one of these stages. I blamed myself in both deaths, for different reasons. But ultimately, now all I feel is sadness, which gets easier with time. I no longer question, as I have entered the ''acceptance'' stage. I don't know your background or if you have close personal experience with this so please don't take offence when I say this. You speak about those having to live with someone else's ''selfish'' decision until the day they die? You do not speak for me. That is not how I feel. And having met other families, through my own experience, that is not how they feel either. Everyone's personal circumstance that influences their opinion is different. So I am fully accepting your view & opinion not once trying to challenge or change it. My replies are merely because I have been challenged on my own view as if suggesting it is an unjustified one. After leaving school I trained as a paramedic before deciding it wasn't the right career for me (number of reasons), so I too come from a medical background but often what you read & learn is not always true to real life in my experience anyway, no matter how many statistics you're offered on paper. In terms of personal experiences that influence my view, 3 months ago one of my best friend's attempted suicide after he faced financial ruin & family pressure, I was the person who found him and it devastated me. They admit it was a cry for help, and thank god it was. But if they had gone through with it, a trail of devastation would have been left behind all because they were losing their way in terms of finances...We live in a materialistic world with such expectation on people's heads, it's sad. Certainly not worth considering ending your life over in most cases. Perhaps I view financially driven suicide differently to other reasons for suicide, I'm not sure. I guess people's justification for ending their life differs a lot, but for me this thread was about financially driven suicide in relation to the recession. And my options are based on that. 5 days before Xmas my partners cousin committed suicide leaving behind his wife and three children, forever more they will associate Xmas with tragedy. When I was 14 years old my best friends dad hung himself in her brothers bedroom after living a totally separate life with another woman & children which was his choice, he couldn't face it when her family found out, whilst she has come to terms with it, she is angry still and questions why. Her brother has gone completely off the rails, having nightmares in which he sees his dad asking him to come with him. He's seeked professional help, her mum daren't dicipline him Incase he too attempts suicide. So it has become a vicious circle of fear. Nevermind all the children caught up in this mess. 10 years on they're still dealing with consequences of it. And sadly I recently lost a friend to a fatal car accident, so I kind of look at suicide in a way that the person always has a choice & that person ultimately has control over whether they choose to end their life or not whereas not everyone else does & their lives are dictated by fate in some sense. My view on suicide of this nature being selfish is also because there are people facing cancer & terminal illness, which again as with many other people, I am unfortunate to have a lot of experience of. And again you don't always necessarily have that choice that others who take their own lives do, essentially your life hangs in the balance in a different way, one which you have no control over it. Whilst I can appreciate mental illness plays a huge part in suicide, I do still think there is a choice that person still has to make that final decision....there are plenty of people in everyday life coping and managing mental illness who are still capable of making assertive life choices. I'm simply saying my view is based on the people around me that have been left behind to cope with tragedy & feel some responsibility for it. This is not the same for everyone who have had this in their lives, but I'm not speaking on behalf of everyone, I'm speaking on behalf of myself & my own opinion, which I feel rather than be challenged all the time, should be accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 so if someone has no one in their life that cares if their dead or alive..or just no one full stop, is the person who ends their life still selfish?? x No when have I said that? My opinion for thinking financial suicide is selfish is based on those left behind because that persons decision affects not only them, the others around them...someone who has no one around them & decides to end their life will not affect anyone else, so it then is a decision they are making for themselves that affects just them, however it would still be very tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not trying to convince you to change your opinion Acidglitter, as I totally see your point and can understand it. I don't agree with it but hey, if we all thought the same thing wouldn't life be boring!!! What I will say is, why cannot someone be a bit selfish now and then? I know I am at times. And I don't mean it in a bad way at all. I do my upmost to help others when I can. But sometimes, I need to think about what is best for me and me alone. I suppose by a pure definition (a definition in my head by the way) of selfish that is. But we cannot live our lives for others, no matter who they are. I think you sum that up well, that you are accepting of others opinions on this even if you don't agree with it. Not sure why in this forum there's always so much challenge & confrontation when everyone is entitled to their own opinion & invited to share it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest79615 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 i never said you said that, i was just asking your opinion.... No when have I said that? My opinion for thinking financial suicide is selfish is based on those left behind because that persons decision affects not only them, the others around them...someone who has no one around them & decides to end their life will not affect anyone else, so it then is a decision they are making for themselves that affects just them, however it would still be very tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 After leaving school I trained as a paramedic before deciding it wasn't the right career for me (number of reasons), so I too come from a medical background but often what you read & learn is not always true to real life in my experience anyway, no matter how many statistics you're offered on paper. I am a Paramedic and have been one for 14 years. These statistics are based on chemistry and science and years of research. And they add weight to the theory that suicides are as a result of a break down in mental health. What these statistics say is that in the cases, where there were no warning signs, there has been a catastrophic break down, in both the chemical make up of the frontal lobe and the cognitive skills. In my experience, that is exactly what has happened in sudden and unexpected suicides. We live in a materialistic world with such expectation on people's heads, it's sad. Certainly not worth considering ending your life over in most cases. Most cases? I would have said all, but I'm not walking in their shoes, therefore I cannot comment. Perhaps I view financially driven suicide differently to other reasons for suicide, I'm not sure. I guess people's justification for ending their life differs a lot, but for me this thread was about financially driven suicide in relation to the recession. And my options are based on that. So you only think financially related suicide is selfish? The others have your empathy? When I was 14 years old my best friends dad hung himself in her brothers bedroom after living a totally separate life with another woman & children which was his choice, he couldn't face it when her family found out, whilst she has come to terms with it, she is angry still and questions why. Her brother has gone completely off the rails, having nightmares in which he sees his dad asking him to come with him. He's seeked professional help, her mum daren't dicipline him Incase he too attempts suicide. So it has become a vicious circle of fear. Nevermind all the children caught up in this mess. 10 years on they're still dealing with consequences of it. Nobody goes unaffected by this, no matter what the circumstances are. Whilst I can appreciate mental illness plays a huge part in suicide, I do still think there is a choice that person still has to make that final decision....there are plenty of people in everyday life coping and managing mental illness who are still capable of making assertive life choices. Yes, because they have a wish to live, despite their illness. Some people just want to die. And that includes terminally ill people. Sometimes emotional pain can be worse than physical pain. Anyone who's had their heart broken might agree with this. Don't misunderstand please. This is not a personal vendetta. I simply do not agree with your opinion. It is at times contradictory to itself. This is a debate. Not everyone, including you will agree with my opinion. I encourage you to pick it apart. Nobody is right or wrong in this topic, including the suicide victims. But it is healthy to talk about and debate it. Don't be afraid of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missus B Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think you sum that up well, that you are accepting of others opinions on this even if you don't agree with it. Not sure why in this forum there's always so much challenge & confrontation when everyone is entitled to their own opinion & invited to share it. You perceive it as challenging and confrontational. I perceive it as a healthy debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not sure why in this forum there's always so much challenge & confrontation when everyone is entitled to their own opinion & invited to share it. Because the forum is reflective of real life. Just because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean that the opinion shouldn't be challenged. All opinions are just that...............an opinion...................an opinion is not based on certainty. If everyone acted on their own opinion, without being challenged, what would ever be changed? Leading politicians may have an opinion that a country should go to war and base their decision on their opinions (which may be misguided and/or not founded in fact). Should they not be challenged? That is how real life ticks over. IRL, one may express an opinion, whilst another person may challenge that opinion because their opinion is different, or they may have evidence based on fact and not opinion. Challenges to "opinion" are healthy, (if somewhat uncomfortable for some) when those challenges are based on anothers' opinion. When they are based on fact, even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest79615 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 ...and ultimately you cannot ask the successful suicide victim why and their opinion, etc...sometimes its selfish, sometimes its selfless, sometimes its neither. I knew a young man who killed himself as he was in fear for his life and that of his family, he was told that if he didn't kill himself then him and his family would be brutally killed, this threat was very real to him and he was deeply traumatized, but he loved his family so had to make the choice..he died to save them, he was unaware he was mentally ill. His family were naturally devastated and people who didn't know him commented on how selfish it was for a young successful man to leave his family like that..that judgment upset me Some people appear highly strung on here, its a topic that has gathered differing opinions but if you are sensitive to opposing opinions at the moment you are maybe best to stop reading others views for your own sake...and i do not mean this post to be confrontational etc..just to state that an outsider or reader of a local newspaper may put the reasons of suicide down to one thing such as finances perhaps but it is not usually that straight forward. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acidglitter Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think I'll just resign from replying to this thread, I too like a healthy debate every now & again, but i cannot understand why people need to challenge, then challenge again & again to go round in circles. I would never take this as a personal vendetta as I don't know you & certainly have nothing against you. I'm just not really wanting to continue going over the same ground over & over again for what outcome or resolution? In my opinion there is no right or wrong opinion on this topic. For me this isn't so much of a debate as I agree with all you are saying and respect it as your opinion, but my personal opinion just differs that's all and i don't feel i should have to continually justify it. To be honest I think that this topic doesn't necessarily require so much challenging debate just more a respectful & mutual understanding of people's opposing opinions based on their own experiences. I don't really have anything else to say on this matter, each to their own, I entirely respect other people's opinions & don't feel the need to challenge them in order to get justification. I'll normally happily debate on all matter of things...but suicide for me, is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest79615 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 yeah, i think we've all covered just about every opinion there is! a lot of people agree with your opinion and im glad you shared your views. I'm going to leave too..its important to talk about but its not exactly the cheeriest of subjects to get carried away in discussion for too long in xx I think I'll just resign from replying to this thread, I too like a healthy debate every now & again, but i cannot understand why people need to challenge, then challenge again & again to go round in circles. I would never take this as a personal vendetta as I don't know you & certainly have nothing against you. I'm just not really wanting to continue going over the same ground over & over again for what outcome or resolution? In my opinion there is no right or wrong opinion on this topic. For me this isn't so much of a debate as I agree with all you are saying and respect it as your opinion, but my personal opinion just differs that's all and i don't feel i should have to continually justify it. To be honest I think that this topic doesn't necessarily require so much challenging debate just more a respectful & mutual understanding of people's opposing opinions based on their own experiences. I don't really have anything else to say on this matter, each to their own, I entirely respect other people's opinions & don't feel the need to challenge them in order to get justification. I'll normally happily debate on all matter of things...but suicide for me, is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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