Racism/xenophobia

[Harpodom]

As I have said all along if you ave been reading...it is my opinion, do you think mass immigration instead of controlled immigration like in oz has helped or hindered the UK, say what you honestly believe .

 

Bit tricky to compare, seeing as Aus isn't in the EU. But in my understanding, different waves of migration since WW2 were encouraged to fill gaps in the workforce such as 'on the buses' etc.. Also you get refugees here, there were plenty after the Vietnam war. They too can form ghettos such as in Footscray Melbourne

 

I can see where you are coming from that there have been issues of non integration in some instances, and of ghettoisation in mainly the NW former mill towns. But I wouldnt lay the blame on the immigrants necessarily. Im sure that racial intolerance has played a large part in the way these communities have failed to integrate.

 

But overall I think the UK has been enhanced by immigration. I think Britain is a more tolerant place because of it.

[Salma]

I was wondering how long it would take to bashing muslims in this thread (as the OP mentioned her husbands ethinic origin is lebanese). Yes there are problmes in sydney west as there are in any large city across the world. To pin squarley in the fact these boys are muslims is totally unfair, so how do you class any other type of disaffected youth bring up their religon (or is that status purley for muslims of any ethnicty to be classed by religon) or use their ethnic background?

 

One could argue that what has australia done 2nd/3rd gen lebanese because lets face it if these problems were due to their "faith" they wouldn't be running clubs (john ibrahaim), leading bikie gangs (his brother), gun laudering etc the problems would be those caused by stricter teachings of islam.

 

I remember when my husband convereted and his brothers only interaction came via lebanese muslims who were all dodgy into crime etc but now he if fine as he knows the difference.

[Guest Guest69235]

I was wondering how long it would take to bashing muslims in this thread (as the OP mentioned her husbands ethinic origin is lebanese). Yes there are problmes in sydney west as there are in any large city across the world. To pin squarley in the fact these boys are muslims is totally unfair, so how do you class any other type of disaffected youth bring up their religon (or is that status purley for muslims of any ethnicty to be classed by religon) or use their ethnic background?

 

One could argue that what has australia done 2nd/3rd gen lebanese because lets face it if these problems were due to their "faith" they wouldn't be running clubs (john ibrahaim), leading bikie gangs (his brother), gun laudering etc the problems would be those caused by stricter teachings of islam.

 

I remember when my husband convereted and his brothers only interaction came via lebanese muslims who were all dodgy into crime etc but now he if fine as he knows the difference.

 

I would have to politely disagree with you that there has been any Muslim bashing on this thread. Sir Les Patterson has simply came forth with true information and pointed the OP to the hard facts. Its in your face, it minces no words, and its just as it should be. Sometimes the best way to put things in their proper context is to come out with the gory details.

 

Nobody is 'pinning the matter squarely on Muslim boys', but if you go and read the link which Sir Les Patterson posted, you will find the kind of language used by these 'boys' (they were MEN actually) blatantly involves the comparison of Muslim vs. Christian (and my head hangs in shame, I might add). If people of any other religions made similar statements, then YES people would point accusatory fingers towards them and one would have to be understanding of their feelings. What these people did was to bring shame upon our beautiful religion and we can only respectfully point out that this is totally NOT what Islam teaches. You will find that two different posters made observations to this effect, with one saying their parents didn't teach them properly - and I whole-heartedly agree.

 

You say what Australia has done for them? Well, as far as I know, up to the point that they committed the horrendous attrocities, they were entitled to all benefits/medicare/whatever which Australia provides. They had access to the same state education as others. And even after committing what people described as acts that could only be perpetrated in times of war, they got jail terms. Let me assure you that had this been ANYWHERE else... lets not name names... they would have faced much worse themselves... and I can assure you there would have been riots with gangs targeting MUSLIM women similarly out of revenge... that such things never happened in itself speaks very highly about Australian society.

 

Lets just keep the WHOLE situation in mind and not let parts of it overwhelm our emotions.

[Petals]

There is an article in today's Sun in Melbourne saying that Muslim issues are at flashpoint in the community. 80 percent of the submissions into the federal inquiry into multiculturalism were antagonistic to Muslims. Possibly because there is an expectation that the Australian public should fund their special requirements.

 

Having special women sessions at the local pools in some places which are funded by all residents. That goes down like a stone with Aussies. No problem with them having women only sessions but get the ethnic community to build a pool specially for that purpose from funds from their people.

 

Wanting Sharia law why should we change our law. if I go overseas and I have been to the middle east a few times, I respect the laws so its expected people who choose our country to live in,should abide by our laws.

 

Its not racism to expect that people who want special privileges provide them themselves from their own community..

[Paul1Perth]

Hi,

 

the word got out at work that I am planning to go to Australia. Since last week I was approached by two coworkers ( originally from India) and they both warned me about the racial issues there saying that couple of years back there was a huge issue as some Indians studying in AUS were killed , supposedly because of their race. They weren`t able to give me any specific detail as to the place where this was supposed to happen.

 

How were you accepted in Australia as a foreigner? Did you notice any racial problems going on? Are small towns with less diverse population more likely to be unfriendly or hostile? What about your workplace? Are any of the states known to be more accepting to immigrants than others?

I have to say I was taken by surprise because I have worked with Australians in the Gulf and never had any troubles. I am, however, white.

My husband is lebanese by origin so black hair, olive complexion ( very handsome IMO:wink:) . Our kids are a mix:biggrin:.

Please somebody set my mind at ease .

 

I think the issues the Indian people were talking about happened in Melbourne about a year or so ago. The indian press picked up on it and really went to town on Oz. They were worried here as the Indian students numbers coming over are massive and a dent in their numbers would have a knock on affect on the education business here. It's a pity that education has turned into a big business but I guess that's the way it is the world over, at least in places that have good uni's.

 

I think the police spent an awful lot of time investigating and came to the conclusion that the crimes weren't racial at all, just bad luck that the people affected had been in the wrong place a the wrong times. The Indian press went overboard and before we knew it, it was an international incident.

 

To be honest I've seen a lot less racial discrimination here than I saw in Birmingham when I was at Uni. You should be fine. Let your Indian friends know that things were nowhere near as bad as they were portrayed in their press.

[Salma]

There is an article in today's Sun in Melbourne saying that Muslim issues are at flashpoint in the community. 80 percent of the submissions into the federal inquiry into multiculturalism were antagonistic to Muslims. Possibly because there is an expectation that the Australian public should fund their special requirements.

 

Having special women sessions at the local pools in some places which are funded by all residents. That goes down like a stone with Aussies. No problem with them having women only sessions but get the ethnic community to build a pool specially for that purpose from funds from their people.

 

Wanting Sharia law why should we change our law. if I go overseas and I have been to the middle east a few times, I respect the laws so its expected people who choose our country to live in,should abide by our laws.

 

Its not racism to expect that people who want special privileges provide them themselves from their own community..

 

But all communities pay towards services they do not use at that current time or do we all get to pick and choose where our rates are being spent?

 

Also the way you have put it is that "muslims" are not part of the "Australian Public" and want wider society to pay for it, these provisions are more than liely asked for in areas where there is a high muslim population therefore they are the people funding it through local taxation etc (if thats how it works here not to sure of the local taxation system).

 

I am sure no muslim is going to say I want a female only swimming session in a subarb where they are the only person, muslims do adapt I mean come on Australia is the birth place of burkini so that these women can go n swim in normal sessions.

[Salma]

I would have to politely disagree with you that there has been any Muslim bashing on this thread. Sir Les Patterson has simply came forth with true information and pointed the OP to the hard facts. Its in your face, it minces no words, and its just as it should be. Sometimes the best way to put things in their proper context is to come out with the gory details.

 

Nobody is 'pinning the matter squarely on Muslim boys', but if you go and read the link which Sir Les Patterson posted, you will find the kind of language used by these 'boys' (they were MEN actually) blatantly involves the comparison of Muslim vs. Christian (and my head hangs in shame, I might add). If people of any other religions made similar statements, then YES people would point accusatory fingers towards them and one would have to be understanding of their feelings. What these people did was to bring shame upon our beautiful religion and we can only respectfully point out that this is totally NOT what Islam teaches. You will find that two different posters made observations to this effect, with one saying their parents didn't teach them properly - and I whole-heartedly agree.

 

You say what Australia has done for them? Well, as far as I know, up to the point that they committed the horrendous attrocities, they were entitled to all benefits/medicare/whatever which Australia provides. They had access to the same state education as others. And even after committing what people described as acts that could only be perpetrated in times of war, they got jail terms. Let me assure you that had this been ANYWHERE else... lets not name names... they would have faced much worse themselves... and I can assure you there would have been riots with gangs targeting MUSLIM women similarly out of revenge... that such things never happened in itself speaks very highly about Australian society.

 

Lets just keep the WHOLE situation in mind and not let parts of it overwhelm our emotions.

 

All muslims cannot and should not be tarred with the same brush and that seem to be the norm now. Newsflash muslim youth commit henious crimes but then so do Anglo Saxons/European/Islanders/Indigenous but why should that crime have to reflect the whole community.

 

Quoting Les:

 

If Fraser had listed to advice at the time, we may not have had some of the problems we have in western Sydney at the present time. As an Aussie of 64 years old I wish we hadn't have let these people in at that time.......if that makes me a racist well so be it.......I don't really give a flying f###

 

So to think if the lebanse were refused refuge then the SW of sydney would be a slightly better place, i think someone needs to look at the bigger picture here and not lump blame on a community.

[Paul1Perth]

Ryanloop,

 

I am sure everyone gets my meaning but yes I could have used prejudice:wink:. English is not my first language and sometimes I use expression that wouldn`t be used by native English speaker:wink:.

 

 

Boganbear,

we are not that much into BBQ and don`t plan on moving to Sydney or Melbourne:biggrin:. I am really looking forward to the honest conversation though, here it seems like you always have to watch yourself so that you don`t offend anyone ( and by offending I don`t mean swearing at them, just expressing an opinion:mad: )

 

 

Perthbum,

I guess that`s everywhere then. My son`s school had a Christmas party and called it "winter festival":eek:

 

It's not apparent by your post that English is not your first language so you will be fine with the written word. I've seen posts on here by people who's first language is English and you can hardly understand them as they are written like the posters are sending a text. full of m8 and the like. Fine if you are sending texts but why do it when you are posting on a forum?

[Petals]

A lot do adapt Salma but its the ones who don't who make the most noise and therefore the community sees only their faces in the paper, asking for this asking for that. I had numerous clients who were from different backgrounds and I could tell you some stories but its not worth it. Unfortunately we wish that all the women could have freedom like we do but that is not the case. I went to a lass I worked with 21st birthday her father is Australian her mother is muslim and all the people there except for me and my oh were muslim. We did not feel that welcome, the lass wanted me to go and I liked her a lot so wanted to. However my oh and I drink and in actual joining the community it would be polite to make sure that all guests are catered for. I have friends who do not drink and they always make sure that their guests who do are catered for. Its not religion is being polite and mixing in with other cultures and being accepted and accepting the difference in culture. That is what Australia expects being a nation of many different backgrounds. Not being fragmented.

 

I am going to be a bit offensive now and say that well educated muslim people integrate just fine its the refugees and people with simple education that find it so hard in the western society. The sudanese find it very difficult here to integrate because they have come from war and male dominated society. In fact they had to deal with them as they were being rude to female members of government agencies, not particularly their fault but probably their elders fault or the people who are looking out for them, should have made them aware of what is acceptable here.

 

Also there have been quite a few rapes of Australian girls by ethnic minorities and this is of course does not help in racial cohesion.

 

They have to move on and integrate and stop arranged marriages which is going on, genital circumcision which is against the law but continues.

 

We have to live together so everyone has to give a little but I think at the present time the natives feel that its all one way.

[Salma]

I would have to politely disagree with you that there has been any Muslim bashing on this thread. Sir Les Patterson has simply came forth with true information and pointed the OP to the hard facts. Its in your face, it minces no words, and its just as it should be. Sometimes the best way to put things in their proper context is to come out with the gory details.

 

Nobody is 'pinning the matter squarely on Muslim boys', but if you go and read the link which Sir Les Patterson posted, you will find the kind of language used by these 'boys' (they were MEN actually) blatantly involves the comparison of Muslim vs. Christian (and my head hangs in shame, I might add). If people of any other religions made similar statements, then YES people would point accusatory fingers towards them and one would have to be understanding of their feelings. What these people did was to bring shame upon our beautiful religion and we can only respectfully point out that this is totally NOT what Islam teaches. You will find that two different posters made observations to this effect, with one saying their parents didn't teach them properly - and I whole-heartedly agree.

 

You say what Australia has done for them? Well, as far as I know, up to the point that they committed the horrendous attrocities, they were entitled to all benefits/medicare/whatever which Australia provides. They had access to the same state education as others. And even after committing what people described as acts that could only be perpetrated in times of war, they got jail terms. Let me assure you that had this been ANYWHERE else... lets not name names... they would have faced much worse themselves... and I can assure you there would have been riots with gangs targeting MUSLIM women similarly out of revenge... that such things never happened in itself speaks very highly about Australian society.

 

Lets just keep the WHOLE situation in mind and not let parts of it overwhelm our emotions.

 

Does the below story reflect all pakistani's:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashfield_gang_rapes

 

Bad apples in every community and to think a whole community is being judged on actions of a few in what we perceive as a fair and democratic society is very sad indeeed.

[Salma]

Well the part about drinking is always highlighted and I feel that far too much is made of it, muslims do not drink due to relgious reasons and not social and therefore will not have it at family gatherings etc. My OH family are aussie non muslims and when I am with them they drink etc but I will not serve alcohol in my house and that is my right in a free society.

 

Unfortunatley it is always the noisey minority whose voices are heard and it seems the media seeks out to give a voice also too, how many decent articulate muslims do you see on tv I can only name one Waleed Aly on The Project on channel 10.

 

Integration is required and certain things that against the law should not be practised but arranged marriages are totally legal what you are talking about is forced marriages and they should not happen they are not even legal under islam but like a lot patriachal socities the men overide all laws etc.

 

I think refugees come with a lot of baggage also but education helps in the integration.

[Sir Les Patterson]

So to think if the lebanse were refused refuge then the SW of sydney would be a slightly better place, i think someone needs to look at the bigger picture here and not lump blame on a community.

 

In a word.....YES......many of the problems in the SW of Sydney seem to come from the Lebanese Muslims who came here after the civil war....not all but a fair percentage. They are in Australia now and sorry but as far as I'm concerned that's accepting Australian values.

 

This great piece of rhetoric from the "Grand Mufti" at the time.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

 

Really winning the heart's and mind's of the average Aussie isn't he.

[Salma]

In a word.....YES......many of the problems in the SW of Sydney seem to come from the Lebanese Muslims who came here after the civil war....not all but a fair percentage. They are in Australia now and sorry but as far as I'm concerned that's accepting Australian values.

 

This great piece of rhetoric from the "Grand Mufti" at the time.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

 

Really winning the heart's and mind's of the average Aussie isn't he.

 

Ok fair enough so if there were no lebanese muslims then SW of Sydeny would have less crime according to you? So once they have gone who are you to blame for the crimes or will it just cease to exist?

 

As I said in a previous post media will only give a mouthpeice to whacky muslims how often have you heard/read about a decent muslim who is integrated in society etc they just don't sell papers!

[Sir Les Patterson]

Ok fair enough so if there were no lebanese muslims then SW of Sydeny would have less crime according to you? So once they have gone who are you to blame for the crimes or will it just cease to exist?

 

As I said in a previous post media will only give a mouthpeice to whacky muslims how often have you heard/read about a decent muslim who is integrated in society etc they just don't sell papers!

 

Ah...my friend Mohammed.......he and his family are from Iraq originally....top bloke......he's fitted into Australia fantastically well.

[Paul1Perth]

I dont think its racism but there are alot of short slang terms used for minority groups here. Its just the aussie way.

 

I think the most racism Ive seen is towards the Aboriginal people. And im afraid its country wide.

 

You've not been here very long Ghost so I would steer clear of commenting on the Aboriginal issue. I'm guessing that you've not had a lot to do with them and there aren't that many around Perth really. I too felt like maybe Aussies were a bit racist towards Aboriginals and thought that I would be able to treat every one I met, including aboriginals, on their merits. I think after a few years and a bit of experience you might change your mind.

 

Sorry your meet up didn't happen btw. Too many people watching the dockers maybe.:wink:

[Salma]

Ah...my friend Mohammed.......he and his family are from Iraq originally....top bloke......he's fitted into Australia fantastically well.

 

There you go judge a community on people you know, not what the media is telling you.

[Sir Les Patterson]

There you go judge a community on people you know, not what the media is telling you.

 

The media links I posted are not lies that the media is telling me........It actually happened. I actually visit several Muslim countries as part of my job and by and large they are good people that I deal with although I can't really take to the Saudi's.....don't know what it is.....their officialdom is somewhat "different" so to speak.

[Salma]

so what if i start posting links re what some christian preacher is saying/some rapes by a particular community because they are true it is ok use it as a yardstick to beat up on people of that religon or ethnicity becuase it has happened.

[flag of convenience]

All muslims cannot and should not be tarred with the same brush and that seem to be the norm now. Newsflash muslim youth commit henious crimes but then so do Anglo Saxons/European/Islanders/Indigenous but why should that crime have to reflect the whole community.

 

Quoting Les:

 

If Fraser had listed to advice at the time, we may not have had some of the problems we have in western Sydney at the present time. As an Aussie of 64 years old I wish we hadn't have let these people in at that time.......if that makes me a racist well so be it.......I don't really give a flying f###

 

So to think if the lebanse were refused refuge then the SW of sydney would be a slightly better place, i think someone needs to look at the bigger picture here and not lump blame on a community.

I'm afraid ignorance towards the Muslim community is rather wide spread and no way unique to the Australian landscape. What folk seem to forget is that there is a massive diversity within the Islamic world,which includes very different cultures and traditions that influences how the faith is practised at home and abroad.

Some folk take their religion to the extreme in all faiths. I doubt very much if many of the so called Lebanese in SW Sydney have a lot of knowledge with regards to their parents faith but reflect more the environment they inhabit (in that sense they adopted quite well) but with an added sense of identity of being Lebanese with limited awareness what it means.

[Salma]

that is not my way, I will judge a person by their actions and their actions alone not what some nutjob said somewhere or crimes committed by a person who happens to share an ethnioc origin

[Skani]

That`s what I am worried about, when people have a bad experience with certain nationality do they tend to be prejudiced against people of the same nationality.....

 

Unless he swaggers around like a young gang member I'm sure he won't have problems. Lebanese are probably best known here for their food....restaurants and kebab shops.

[Petals]

Well the part about drinking is always highlighted and I feel that far too much is made of it, muslims do not drink due to relgious reasons and not social and therefore will not have it at family gatherings etc. My OH family are aussie non muslims and when I am with them they drink etc but I will not serve alcohol in my house and that is my right in a free society.

 

Unfortunatley it is always the noisey minority whose voices are heard and it seems the media seeks out to give a voice also too, how many decent articulate muslims do you see on tv I can only name one Waleed Aly on The Project on channel 10.

 

Integration is required and certain things that against the law should not be practised but arranged marriages are totally legal what you are talking about is forced marriages and they should not happen they are not even legal under islam but like a lot patriachal socities the men overide all laws etc.

 

I think refugees come with a lot of baggage also but education helps in the integration.

 

I agree its your right not to have alcohol at your house Salma however at a social gathering its polite to make sure that all attendees are catered for and its a sign of good manners. We do not get drunk but we do like a glass of wine.

 

As for arranged marriages, I agree some are not forced. However when a young lass is told if you marry out of our faith then we will not speak to you again, I would call that blackmail and yes, I know someone this happened to. Its archaic stuff.

 

So many problems and there are many many of them.

 

I can never understand why people migrate to a country that does not have their customs, if customs are so much part of one's life. Its obvious that children when they go to school, grow up are going to want a different way of life and if we are good immigrants we should rejoice in that.

[RockDr]

I agree its your right not to have alcohol at your house Salma however at a social gathering its polite to make sure that all attendees are catered for and its a sign of good manners. We do not get drunk but we do like a glass of wine.

 

 

 

So do you also think non-smokers should provide cigarettes for guests who smoke? Unless you have something against soft-drinks, then you WERE catered for. Would you be equally put out if you'd been invited to afternoon tea by a white australian and only served tea rather than beer?

[Petals]

So do you also think non-smokers should provide cigarettes for guests who smoke? Unless you have something against soft-drinks, then you WERE catered for. Would you be equally put out if you'd been invited to afternoon tea by a white australian and only served tea rather than beer?

 

If I am specifically invited to afternoon tea, I expect tea. If I am going to a celebration then I expect all tastes to be catered for. I was a smoker myself so I am not a smoker basher

 

I just don't like the assertion that having a drink is a problem, if I don't want to I don't but provide it for others.

[Petals]

Its not about who does what or when or any of those things, its just pointing out the differences and that both should meet half way. According to the aritcle the gov is taking the response they received seriously. Devils advocate.