Expensive Australia

[boganbear]

If you shop around you can get good bargains and with the high Aussie dollar you can buy lots of stuff from abroad easily and it is incredibly cheap. I just bought a pair of trainers from the Uk for half the price than in the shops, I get all of our PS3/blu rays games from the Uk for a third of the price (ozgameshop.com), Clarins shaving oil $28 online instead of $44 from Myer and cheaper than the UK, books from bookdepository.co.uk.

 

Aussie retailers do rip you off so if they go bust I don't have any sympathy. Its something you have to get used to like the crap quality of the news and progammes like Today Tonight and ACA

[pintpot]

Harpo

 

You think the GFC is solely responsible for unemployment in UK? Where have you been since the 1970's? Unemployment in UK started with automobile industry decline, then manufacturing, denationalisation and has been exacerbated by increased flow of foreign low cost workers, if wages were higher at the lower end prices would increase but more of us would do the menial jobs.

 

The man in the street believes manufacturing in the UK has been/is in terminal decline, but it's not the case. In general there has been a slight upward trend in manufacturing output in real value terms - but the increase in output has been accompanied by a big shift away from the heavy employing industries and towards more automated ones

 

http://tutor2u.net/economics/content/essentials/manufacturing_industry_in_uk.htm

 

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing overall - it's not sustainable to try and prop up high labour requirement manufacturing in the long term when other countries can do it better and cheaper. Free trade overall makes us all better off, some bloke called Smith wrote a book about it once IIRC

 

The automotive industry is an interesting case in point. The man in the street thinks car making in the UK is long dead and buried, but it's not the case: It's been up and down but in general the UK makes a similar number of cars now as it did in the early 80s. I think the peak was about 1974, not sure - see here (it's rubbish data but I can't find anything better in the time available):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom#Production_data

 

It's also not the case that unemployment "Set in" with 1970s-80s deindustrialization and has been generally rising since:

http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+unemployment+data#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:uk&ifdim=country_group&tstart=412088400000&tend=1321966800000&hl=en&dl=en

 

The causes, roots and fixes of unemployment is a massive subject that a thousand economics textbooks spend time exploring, and like much in macro-economics, it often doesn't behave in the way people think it does/should. In particular it concerns me that current global and in particular UK uncertainties lead people down a simplistic path of wanting to batten down the hatches, prevent migration and throw up the protectionist barriers to "protect jobs". It doesn't work like that, IMO protectionism can only work in the short term, in the long term it just makes you inefficient. Look at the US car industry which was protected for years by high import tariffs and quotas. It hasn't done anything to help Detroit, it just made the US majors into basket cases loaded with an almost unshiftable high cost base whilst they made godawful products that were 20 years behind the products of other nations where they had to compete

 

I'm not arguing that manufacturing in the UK is all hunky-dory, because it's not; in particular we (the UK) do a rubbish job of taking the many innovations we create and developing and investing in them; things Germany and the US do so much better. I think Aussie industry suffers from some of the same malaise from what I can see; my worry for Aussie manufacturing is that people seem to want a dose of the medicine that will never work - stick up the barriers. Australia would do much better to address the drivers of technological progress - an education system, a finance market and culture that is incentivised to invest in industry, and so on

 

I don't think it's right to say that unemployment in the UK is solely the result of the GFC but it's been a much bigger contributor to it than anything else, just look at the graph. It's easy for people to get themselves believing that the UK has been in inexorable decline when they're feeling the pinch, but that's not been the case; people have got pretty short (and unreliable) memories in the main

This is not rocket science harpo, well may be it is. If Australia continues to lose jobs overseas, and we choose not to buy goods sold here then unemployment will rise, the effects are so obvious.

As far as retail goes, IMO the sector here needs a good kick up the backside. They (australian retailers) are woefully behind the times with things like online, and this has bitten them in the behind big time in the past couple of years with the strong dollar making it pay for people to order from elsewhere, and retailers from elsewhere seeing the opportunity - in a forward looking move you could never imagine from an Australian retailer - and selling really hard to them, like Next loudly marketing free delivery to Australia and so on. The Australian retailers appear to me, most of them, to have made a number of crucial errors; they thought online was never going to be that big in a small market where most people live in cities and are close to outlets, they were greedy when the dollar first strengthened and tried to keep the upside to themselves, they got too wrapped round the axle of property values and commercial rents and convinced themselves because their assets had nominall risen in value, they were doing business better, and a lot of them took on too much debt to expand into new developments. Now the genie is out of the bottle, because their market is now not scared of ordering from elsewhere and will continue to do so whilst they think they are gettin better value. It'll be a long hard road back for the retailers tbh. Doubtless with an increasing clamour for import duties on stuff ordered from overseas......

 

The USA wasn't responsible for RBS, Llyod's the problem with them was the magnitude of the problem.

Well, it sort of was. Crap loans in the US in the first place that were then hawked round the market were the rot that set the whole thing off

 

But, housing and banking (financial services if you will) is just another sector. You have to think about manufacturing,outsourcing, they have a far greater long-term affect on unemployment over 30-40 years than the GFC over the last 4 years. The sustained long-term unemployment caused through the eradication of UK farming, mining, steel, cars etc brought about greater affect on society. Do you recall the 70's? 80's?

Nah, don't think so - see above.

 

We can avoid it here by buying things made here, keep everyone employed.

You can't. You'll just put off the inevitable. Buying local is laudable but not if it's enforced, nor if by buying local you have to put up with inferior quality or value.

[Harpodom]

:notworthy: just goes to show my primary school level understanding of economics isn't so far off the mark

 

The man in the street believes manufacturing in the UK has been/is in terminal decline, but it's not the case. In general there has been a slight upward trend in manufacturing output in real value terms - but the increase in output has been accompanied by a big shift away from the heavy employing industries and towards more automated ones

 

http://tutor2u.net/economics/content/essentials/manufacturing_industry_in_uk.htm

 

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing overall - it's not sustainable to try and prop up high labour requirement manufacturing in the long term when other countries can do it better and cheaper. Free trade overall makes us all better off, some bloke called Smith wrote a book about it once IIRC

 

The automotive industry is an interesting case in point. The man in the street thinks car making in the UK is long dead and buried, but it's not the case: It's been up and down but in general the UK makes a similar number of cars now as it did in the early 80s. I think the peak was about 1974, not sure - see here (it's rubbish data but I can't find anything better in the time available):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom#Production_data

 

It's also not the case that unemployment "Set in" with 1970s-80s deindustrialization and has been generally rising since:

http://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+unemployment+data#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:uk&ifdim=country_group&tstart=412088400000&tend=1321966800000&hl=en&dl=en

 

The causes, roots and fixes of unemployment is a massive subject that a thousand economics textbooks spend time exploring, and like much in macro-economics, it often doesn't behave in the way people think it does/should. In particular it concerns me that current global and in particular UK uncertainties lead people down a simplistic path of wanting to batten down the hatches, prevent migration and throw up the protectionist barriers to "protect jobs". It doesn't work like that, IMO protectionism can only work in the short term, in the long term it just makes you inefficient. Look at the US car industry which was protected for years by high import tariffs and quotas. It hasn't done anything to help Detroit, it just made the US majors into basket cases loaded with an almost unshiftable high cost base whilst they made godawful products that were 20 years behind the products of other nations where they had to compete

 

I'm not arguing that manufacturing in the UK is all hunky-dory, because it's not; in particular we (the UK) do a rubbish job of taking the many innovations we create and developing and investing in them; things Germany and the US do so much better. I think Aussie industry suffers from some of the same malaise from what I can see; my worry for Aussie manufacturing is that people seem to want a dose of the medicine that will never work - stick up the barriers. Australia would do much better to address the drivers of technological progress - an education system, a finance market and culture that is incentivised to invest in industry, and so on

 

I don't think it's right to say that unemployment in the UK is solely the result of the GFC but it's been a much bigger contributor to it than anything else, just look at the graph. It's easy for people to get themselves believing that the UK has been in inexorable decline when they're feeling the pinch, but that's not been the case; people have got pretty short (and unreliable) memories in the main

 

As far as retail goes, IMO the sector here needs a good kick up the backside. They (australian retailers) are woefully behind the times with things like online, and this has bitten them in the behind big time in the past couple of years with the strong dollar making it pay for people to order from elsewhere, and retailers from elsewhere seeing the opportunity - in a forward looking move you could never imagine from an Australian retailer - and selling really hard to them, like Next loudly marketing free delivery to Australia and so on. The Australian retailers appear to me, most of them, to have made a number of crucial errors; they thought online was never going to be that big in a small market where most people live in cities and are close to outlets, they were greedy when the dollar first strengthened and tried to keep the upside to themselves, they got too wrapped round the axle of property values and commercial rents and convinced themselves because their assets had nominall risen in value, they were doing business better, and a lot of them took on too much debt to expand into new developments. Now the genie is out of the bottle, because their market is now not scared of ordering from elsewhere and will continue to do so whilst they think they are gettin better value. It'll be a long hard road back for the retailers tbh. Doubtless with an increasing clamour for import duties on stuff ordered from overseas......

 

 

Well, it sort of was. Crap loans in the US in the first place that were then hawked round the market were the rot that set the whole thing off

 

 

Nah, don't think so - see above.

 

 

You can't. You'll just put off the inevitable. Buying local is laudable but not if it's enforced, nor if by buying local you have to put up with inferior quality or value.

[Skani]

No i obviously dont understand commercial tv...could you please explain it then?

 

Well, the ABC gets its money from the Australian Government. So does SBS mostly (although they do have a few commercials).

 

However the commercial TV channels are entirely reliant for their money on what advertisers pay for their commercial advertising spots. And how much they pay for each spot depends on how big the audience is. (For example, advertisers will pay humungous amounts to put a short commercial on during the AFL Grand Final).

 

So the commercial channels are interested only in how many people will watch their show - not how factual or truthful it might be. Shows like Today Tonight will aim to put in as many "shock horror" headlines as they can to attract people's attention. They are not too fussy about facts if they consider them boring.

 

So just remember when you watch them that you never get the whole story.

[Skani]

It angers me we dont have the same choices as USA or Europe,

 

 

It's not something to get angry about...it's just a result of being a small population in a vast area a long way from any other sizeable populations with an equivalent disposable income.

[tisme]

Well, the ABC gets its money from the Australian Government. So does SBS mostly (although they do have a few commercials).

 

However the commercial TV channels are entirely reliant for their money on what advertisers pay for their commercial advertising spots. And how much they pay for each spot depends on how big the audience is. (For example, advertisers will pay humungous amounts to put a short commercial on during the AFL Grand Final).

 

 

So the commercial channels are interested only in how many people will watch their show - not how factual or truthful it might be. Shows like Today Tonight will aim to put in as many "shock horror" headlines as they can to attract people's attention. They are not too fussy about facts if they consider them boring.

 

So just remember when you watch them that you never get the whole story.

 

Yep, that's exactly what happens, some of the sh!te they have on those shows is laughable.:biglaugh:

[AaronS]

We got our electricity bill through last night. We have a 2 bed apartment...$208 for the month. Yikes...better turn the air con off! :wacko:

 

Not anything to do with anything else, but $208 is a bargain! Our electric bill in the US during the summer was....you ready......over $700....A MONTH! Of course we were at 40 degrees for 3 months straight (occasionally 45) and had to run the the air con constantly.

[AaronS]

Well, it sort of was. Crap loans in the US in the first place that were then hawked round the market were the rot that set the whole thing off

 

 

You said a mouthfull there! Crap loans indeed! Started with the Clintion administration and their "fair housing" deal. Basically financial institutions were strong armed into giving virtually anyone a loan...and they were crap loans because they needed to make money on them some how. People were getting loans on a $400K house (mid priced in the US) with NO down payment! Banks would give adjustable rate mortgage loans. So at first the interest rate was like 3%....then after a designated period of time it ballooned to a ridiculous amount like 10%...and the banks could adjust up at anytime after the ARM term came up. Top that off with the fact that most of the loans weren't set up to escrow annual property taxes and you have a real problem. Here's what it meant:

 

Low rate at first and no escrow for taxes meant low monthly payment. Couple that with no down payment and someone earning a minimal living could get into a HUGE house and HUGE mortgage, but have a low monthly payment. After the first year and the taxes came up many people couldn't pay them because they set their payments up at the top of their budget limit to get as big a house as possible for the monthly payment. So a lot of people defaulted right away due to having to pay taxes instead of the mortgage. If some how they manage to scrape up the taxes and better planned the next few years, then they got hit with the ARM term and a sky rocketing interest rate and increased monthly payment. That's when it really hit the fan in the US and people started defaulting left and right. There were 3, 5 and 7 year ARMs and every time one comes up there is a round of people defaulting. Apparently there are a huge amount of 7 year ARM terms due up in 2012 so the housing in most of the US is going to take another hard hit this year.

 

Anyway, only foolish people fell into all that....because nobody was forcing the people to go get the loans. They did it themselves.

 

Smart people stayed away from the ARMs.....for us it was a 20% downpayment on the house and a 30 year fixed rate at 4.25%...we got that 10 years ago.

[flag of convenience]

10 years ago I could save money. Today I find it hard. I don't even own a car. The food prices have gone sky high. Electricity is a joke. 5 year ago I paid max $300 quarterly. This year my bill was $1000 quarterly and we don't have air con. Just 2 heaters running 3 hours a day when it got really cold. Yes, Oz has got a lot more expensive but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

Very true. The costs are very high here and one does wonder just how much higher prices can go. Corporate Australia is as usual looking into cutting costs,ie reduce wages bill.

Far from all folk are in high paid jobs. The mining industry distorts the average somewhat. Prices in WA the prime mining state, are scandalous. But to my mind it is not just over pricing that is the problem.

Of even greater concern is the nature of the country has changed over the years,with materialism and money(greed) dictating society values and the rapid rise of the dog eat dog society.

Just how much better we are really better of is highly debatable. Work conditions in many areas have declined with longer hours and over management with a number of incompetents in positions beyond their ability.....well you get the idea.

[wakeboard1980]

so, keep prices artificially elevated and non competetive you mean?

 

 

 

where are you now then? it says Sydney under your UN

 

 

 

 

commercial TV is not to be taken seriously when critical of anything Australian, but when it highlights the positive aspects, or negative aspects of 'overseas', it's quality reportage. Does that help?

 

No it's called protecting Australia and Australians so it doesn't end up as cheap as the UK.

 

I'm back in the UK now.

 

Commercial TV can be taken seriously if they give the full facts.

[SHandGH]

Here are my thoughts on "Wanted Down Under".

 

Almost all participants are home owners who are looking to sell their modest UK property and buy a large Australian property with a pool. This makes no sense to me considering most property in the UK is decreasing in value / demand and the currency exchange rate is so bad from a UK perspective. Conversely Australian properties are at an all time high, some would consider in a bubble. I would have thought renting out your UK property and renting an Australian property similar to your UK property (without a pool) would make much more sense yet this option is rarely considered on the show.

 

Most participants are low paid workers in the UK like teachers and mechanics. These people are less likely to have significant savings to cover the move and this is perhaps why the want to make a new life for themselves with better prospects. They are relying on their property sale to fund their relocation at the worst possible time. This puts pressure on these participants to sell their properties at a less than ideal time. Some would argue "why wait, things might get worse" but my view is that you should avoid selling at the bottom in the UK, avoid buying at the top in Australia and avoid moving money when exchange rates are at historical lows.

 

In most cases the participants are better off in Australia when earnings and expenses are calculated. It's the property disappointments that seem to shock participants the most. My view is that at this time you need to leave assests in the UK where possible and relocate to Australia with minimal assets to minimise loss. That way you should be able gain the benefits of better salaries, better propspects and better lifestyle. You will have the option to return to your old house in the UK if things don't work out for whatever reason.

 

Just my observation. I'm by no means an expert.

 

This is a really good post. Anyone considering the move should expect they are very likely to be much worse off financially than they were in the UK. I have been watching the recent series of Wanted Down Under this week and I am still shocked at how they mislead people into thinking they can afford a fantastic house and lifestyle in Oz.

[SHandGH]

An expensive place if you are on holiday from the UK.

 

We just said goodbye to family who came out here for a 3 week holiday. The cost of everything was a real shock to them too. Perhaps Australia is only for the well offs and professionals nowadays.

[Splash77]

larson,larson.........sometimes I think you live in a parallel universe

 

Today Tonight and A Current Affair.......the last bastions of fair,balanced,truthful "journalism" left. This from the "Chaser" boys...a few years old but still very relevant.

 

[video=youtube;xR1_Kps2-Q8]

 

sorry sir les...this just ain't that funny...aussie humour eh:nah:

[Peach]

The high prices in Australia support higher wages, that's how everyone makes a reasonable living. If Coles go up against the local butchers, bookshops and music store - in the short term prices will go down. In the long term everyone will be affected - just as has happened in the UK.

[Guest anitaw]

@Anitaw - my kids are still quite small, but what I do is trace around their feet. My son has fat wide feet G width and my two girls have very, very narrow feet and need D width shoes. Clarks and most shoe brands have the length of their shoes in millimetres available on their websites. I usually then add a size and a half onto what they are currently in - they usually have one pair of school, one pair of closed shoes, one pair of sandals and a pair of trainers. It was always my intention that the younger girl wore the eldest girls shoes, but despite the age difference, they are now the same size so have to buy two of everything thus needing to save in any which way I can.

 

@tisme - I agree that the dollar is strong but we have been here for 7 years and have always found buying from overseas to be alot cheaper - perhaps not as great a savings as some of the things I posted about but at least by 25%, which is still substantial.

Thanks for that advise...hadn't thought about doing that.

[pintpot]

The cost of cheap imports has had a HUGE negative effect on the UK.

On the contrary, it has meant people have had access to a lot more "stuff" for the same income level than they could otherwise have afforded. UK manufacturing hasn't diminished because we bought some cheap stuff from China - it has changed in shape and approach to a shifting market environment, as must all business. You cannot "protect" your industry from these market forces, alll such attempts are doomed to fail, eventually

 

I personally DO NOT want the same outcome for Australia, we need to protect the farming, markets gardeners etc, and what little manufacturing we do have, and the future jobs for our children and grandchildren.

I think farming here is a special case because you can always use the biosecurity angle. Given the distance of Australia from other producer nations it's probably eminently sensible to do wo

 

As for manufacturing? Protectionism will never do you any favours. The only future lies in developing more competitive industries, note this does NOT have to mean cheaper - just better. Exposed to trade and competition, the market will drive this upward rise in competitiveness. "Protected" from it, all that will happen is your industries will fall relatively behind others until such time as a way around the protectionism is found, at which point they will fail rapidly. It (protectionism) never works. Actually I would argue your retail industry is reaping some of this wind. They (your retailers) thought that because Aus was a distant market and one where most lived in easy reach of a store, they didn't have to bother too much with online, as most people would put up with not having it and they couldn't go anywhere else anyway. Complacency you might call it. Now they are in the crud because of that complacency - people are making the move in droves to buying online from elsewhere, because it's much better value and because those foreign companies make it really easy. And once people have shopped online once, the fear barrier is gone and they'll happily do it again and again, which strips the market away. Aus retailers are investing heavily in online now, but it's too little too late and for that and other reasons I would say this sector is in for some fairly major pain. Properly exposed to competition, they'd have been investing in that for the past 10 years, as everyone else has done, and be in a much better position now to compete

 

Jobs and an economy don't exist in stasis - by "keeping" a job, you don't ensure it is still there for your children and grandchildren, because all businesses can only prosper where the market allows, and the market is ever changing. And so must businesses, and countries, if they want to succeed. It's an unfortunate truth that lots of people find hard to grasp

 

I'm not arguing just chucking your doors open to all cheap imports and hoping it will be all right is the right thing to do - just saying that trying to block them them in an attempt to prevent change is futile.

[pintpot]

The high prices in Australia support higher wages, that's how everyone makes a reasonable living. If Coles go up against the local butchers, bookshops and music store - in the short term prices will go down.

I would agree that one of the good things here is the plethora of small, independent businesses in local areas.....although the UK isn't *that* different in that respect. The local newsagent, butcher, greengrocer, florist, cafe etc is still very common over there. Bakers and fishmongers less so, but then again most of the bakers in Sydney these days are part of a chain or franchise too

 

Bookshops? Hmm. As far as I can see, in Sydney there's one bookshop operator left. And they are not very good, which you might expect of an effective monopoly. Secondhand/remaindered bookshops and ones catering to a niche market are different, they exist - but then they do in the UK as well

 

Meanwhile the retail market here is way less diverse than at home. A lot of that is down to a smaller population over a large area, but lots isn't - but go in any shopping centre across Greater Sydney and 90% of the shops will be *exactly* the same brands. I can't speak for the rest of the country. And dig a little deeper and you'll find that most of those brands are part of a group that might own 3, 4 or even 10 "big name" brands. It's all quite incestuous and no surprise they aren't that competitive Don't get me wrong - there are a lot of identikit high streets in the UK too. But it's not as bad as here

 

In the long term everyone will be affected - just as has happened in the UK.

In what way? Unconvinced of the "high wages" argument, there are plenty of people here in cities on wages where they could never afford to buy a house. As is evidenced by Australia's high placing in the "unaffordable housing" league. Which, of course, as it's a multiple of average wages, has nothing to do with the exchange rate

 

I keep hearing this view that free trade has somehow impoverished the UK but I don't see it

[OzzHammer]

it's all well and good comparing fords and minis but u have to take into account the export costs of shipping 10000 miles away. Why don't you look at the cost of Japanese and Korean cars, you'll find the cost a lot more bearable.

-

I work for a major worldwide prestige car manufacturer, so I know what I'm talking about regarding vehicle pricing.

 

I heard it on the ABC radio news program I'm sure they said that Commonwealth had put their rate up by 1%

[OzzHammer]

Keeps the chavs out!

-

LMFAO !!! Brilliant post.

[yorkiegirl]

 

Conversely Australian properties are at an all time high, some would consider in a bubble.

 

 

Actually quite a lot of areas have seen some quite significant drops in value recently, just ask anyone who's trying to sell their property at the moment.

[Freckleface]

-

 

I heard it on the ABC radio news program I'm sure they said that Commonwealth had put their rate up by 1%

 

You must have misheard them - the Commonwealth only put its rate up by 0.1%

[Freckleface]

-

I heard it on the ABC radio news program I'm sure they said that Commonwealth had put their rate up by 1%

 

You must have misheard them - the Commonwealth only put its rates up by 0.1%

 

Sorry if this post ends up loading twice - my first attempt appears to have been eaten.

[Guest Pathfinder]

O.ks, so I have missed out a few threads but my summary is if I have to weigh up managing without the follwoing and more then we could survive if we made the move:

 

Ray Ban's

expensive running shoes

clarins shaving oil

S.........ear plugs???

 

Potential price of daughter's Clarks school shoes?? Now that concerns me.................

[Harpodom]

O.ks, so I have missed out a few threads but my summary is if I have to weigh up managing without the follwoing and more then we could survive if we made the move:

 

Ray Ban's

expensive running shoes

clarins shaving oil

S.........ear plugs???

 

Potential price of daughter's Clarks school shoes?? Now that concerns me.................

 

I wouldn't mock til you've actually tried it for yourself mate

[Peach]

Back in the Cotswolds for a few weeks and yesterday popped into a convenience store and I bought:

 

2 x pint bottles of posh organic cider

3 x cans of drink

1 x purple fruit shoot

1 x loaf of bread

 

Total spend - £7.74 - the cider alone would have been $8.99 a bottle at my local IGA. :biggrin: