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Uk Pensions court case

mr luvpants

By mr luvpants
in Money & Finance

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Mike@Bonbeach Platinum Member

Mike@Bonbeach

Posted
Posted

Thanks for the link John.

It is a serious thing especially with the £ being so weak at the moment. Our only income is from pensions in the UK and since we came here in 2007 the monthly payments have just been on a steady spiral downwards and just now it's the equivalent of a 20-25% drop in income.

It would be nice if the expat UK pensioners were upgraded as the same expat retirees in Europe.

We did know that our pensions would be frozen when we decided to emigrate here but never thought the £ would get so weak.

Mike

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Lanky Lad Senior Member

Lanky Lad

Posted
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Thanks for the link John.

It is a serious thing especially with the £ being so weak at the moment. Our only income is from pensions in the UK and since we came here in 2007 the monthly payments have just been on a steady spiral downwards and just now it's the equivalent of a 20-25% drop in income.

It would be nice if the expat UK pensioners were upgraded as the same expat retirees in Europe.

We did know that our pensions would be frozen when we decided to emigrate here but never thought the £ would get so weak.

Mike

 

The Cynical side of me......

 

England - The Mother of Democracy.

Is not acting democratically towards what is a major part of ( or what was) The Commonwealth. This same country gave British passport rights to a number of ex colonies, such as Pakistan. Yet rejects visa's to Gurka's who are among the most loyal and bravest of the Asian countries associated with the fighing forces of the UK.

 

The Commonwealth - consists (or consisted) of countries taken by force or default of the "native" populations ability to repel the invader.

 

I wonder what Turkey did to warrant inclusion in reciprical pensions, apart frrom wiping out most of the Anzacs at Gallopoli - after they obeyed the English commanders!

 

Not for nothing did Maggie Thatcher watch "Yes Minister" and its follow up "Yes Prime Minister". Which other country takes payments towards a FREE national Health service based on income...then tells you to get private pensions because you can afford it and release funds for the more needy!

Yet thinks nothing of sending upto £8 million to Poland every month in Family Credit payments - an entitlement from the European Treaties with member countries!

 

These TV idiots really do exist and I can imagine one such moron deciding limiting pension updates is a suitable punishment for walking out on the mother country...forgetting that they are the main reason many..such as me...are in Aussie now!

 

L.L.

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Guest Gollywobbler

Guest Gollywobbler

Posted
Posted

Hi John

 

Thanks very much indeed for starting this thread. My two cents worth is below:

 

 

www.pension-parity-uk.com - THE I C B PHAS TAKEN THE CASE FOR PENSION PARITY TO THE EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS

 

Tim Otty QC led the team representing the British Pensioners. His address to the Grand Chamber of the ECHR is here:

 

www.pension-parity-uk.com - NEWS Etc.From many different sources

 

The decision is expected in March or April 2010. It is a slow process because 17 Judges are involved from at least 15 countries. The campaign has the full support of the Australian Government, following tjhe ECHR Judgement last year which helped British Pensioners in EU countries but excluded all the 525,000 or so British Pensioners (including my mother) who have moved to countries which are outside the EU and do not have reciprocal Social Security Agreements with the UK. Australia does not have a reciprocal SS agreement with the UK. Over half of the British Pensioners affected by this issue are believed to be in Australia.

 

Go Matilda - Your Gateway to Australia - News

 

Tim Otty QC has had a very distinguished career. He is one of the youngest ever to take silk when he did, some years ago now, and he is widely regarded as one of the best Human Rights lawyers there is. Fingers crossed that he has managed to convince enough members of the Grand Chamber to get a consensus in favour of the Pensioners.

 

The British Government has two central arguments:

 

1. We can't afford it; and

2. The Pensioners knew what the deal was before they left the UK.

 

The Telegraph argues that the Government can afford it:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/606...injustice.html

 

The second argument is specious. If the Government's stance has been unlawful then my mother cannot have given a valid and binding consent to an unlawful deal. She is will be 89 in a fortnight and she has no way of knowing whether it is lawful or not. Indeed she will not know that until the Grand Chamber decision is available in 2010.

 

This issue affects all British Pensioners in Australia or planning to move to Australia, regardless of which visa they hold or which one they are waiting for. The ever vigilant BERIA 410 Group, representing the holders of subclass 410 Retirement visas, is on the case:

 

BERIA 410 - HOME PAGE & NEWS

 

 

Cheers and thanks again

 

Gill :hug:

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Lanky Lad Senior Member

Lanky Lad

Posted
Posted
The British Government has two central arguments:

 

1. We can't afford it; and

2. The Pensioners knew what the deal was before they left the UK.

 

 

 

 

Ignoring the Telegraph article for now....

 

1. We can't afford it;

 

Can I use this as a precident if I get involved in a court action that leads to a fine or other ordered payment?

As a kid I was nicked for not having a light on my cycle (now the police dont even turn up in the UK when you report a break in) I was fined £0.10.00p or 10 shillings or todays 50p or AU$1.00!

My poor old mum, had to stand up and say she was looking after four kids, not working, no husband and could not afford to pay. She was ordered to pay in four installments! So the governments first excuse had as already been discounted by the courts with every order to pay by instalements it makes and has already made!

 

The Labour government made an issue of not being able to afford £31 million to fund a Police pay increase - and within a month was saying £2 billion was available to prop up a failing building society and later others in similar situations!

 

AND, why can't they afford it...they already took the payments and if the recients had remained in the UK..they would have been paid..which would mean the money WAS avaialble!

 

 

2. The Pensioners knew what the deal was before they left the UK.

 

Laws and Acts of Parliament are in the main evalutionary and amended as deemed required. Tax laws are a perfect example, as they are changed to eliminate creative accounting loop holes.

What today is the law or subject to an act of parliament .... is not what may be the law or terms of an existing Act in 12 months time. And any government office is well aware of this.

 

 

 

What needs explaining - from a country that abhors discrimination of any colour, religion, creed blah blah, is why penions rights were refused because the adoptive country has no reciprical agreements.

The individual was required, nay had no choice but to allow an employer to deduct N.I from income; -ignore opted out for now because 40 years ago it did not exist.

For years now its been possible to transfer money or at the very least issue cheques so making payments was not an issue.

 

Another issue is why payments appear to made quarterly when the UK payments are - I understand are made monthy or fortnightly. That theoretically means a loss of interest on teh recipient and a gain in interest by not making payments for the pensions office account in the UK.

 

I will ignore the unfairness of discrimination against mothers who stay home to look after their families - and lose pension credits!

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Guest Gollywobbler

Guest Gollywobbler

Posted
Posted

Hi John

 

Hi to all the British Parents and other British Pensioners as well.

 

I have just heard, on the CPV thread, that the Grand Chamber of the EU have reached a Judgement and that it will be handed down tomorrow, Tuesday 16th March 2010.

 

Home page and reference site for the International Consortium of British Pensioners

 

The short page below reveals just how badly some of the British Pensioners in Oz were treated by the British Government over the years. Sadly, they are no longer alive.

 

British Pensions in Australia

 

"Bung 'em onto a plane bound for Australia and then forget about them," seems to have been the attitude of successive British Governments over the years.

 

Well. If the British Pensioners win tomorrow, it will convince me - a hardened Euro-sceptic normally - that there is some merit in the European Gravy Train after all.

 

Fingers crossed, everyone.

 

Cheers

 

Gill

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Guest Guest31881

Guest Guest31881

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The decision is due at 11.30am Tuesday in Strasburg (local time). Its taken nearly 7 months for the decision to be reached, let’s hope it a favourable decision.

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Guest

Guest

Posted
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Hi John

 

Hi to all the British Parents and other British Pensioners as well.

 

I have just heard, on the CPV thread, that the Grand Chamber of the EU have reached a Judgement and that it will be handed down tomorrow, Tuesday 16th March 2010.

 

Home page and reference site for the International Consortium of British Pensioners

 

The short page below reveals just how badly some of the British Pensioners in Oz were treated by the British Government over the years. Sadly, they are no longer alive.

 

British Pensions in Australia

 

"Bung 'em onto a plane bound for Australia and then forget about them," seems to have been the attitude of successive British Governments over the years.

 

Well. If the British Pensioners win tomorrow, it will convince me - a hardened Euro-sceptic normally - that there is some merit in the European Gravy Train after all.

 

Fingers crossed, everyone.

 

Cheers

 

Gill

 

Hi Gill

 

Have just seen the judgement from Strasbourg - I understand it was REJECTED by 11 votes to 6. I am gutted and angry so will say nothing further at this stage!! :arghh:

 

Regards

 

Jim

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Guest Gollywobbler

Guest Gollywobbler

Posted
Posted

Hi All

 

Like most - if not all of the other Posters on this thread - I am very disappointed that the Grand Chamber of the ECHR has ruled against the 500,000 or so "frozen" British Pensioners.

 

The ECHR's Judgement, in full, is below:

 

ECHR Portal HTML View

 

I must admit that last night was more than slightly late for me to watch the webcast of the proceedings that took place in the Grand Chamber of the ECHR on 2nd September 2009. Nonetheless I finally got around to watching the webcast yesterday evening, via the website below:

 

Home page and reference site for the International Consortium of British Pensioners

 

Watching the webcast, I did feel that James Eadie QC - representing the UK Government - was really only making the Government's two original points, being:-

 

1. We can't afford it; and

 

2. The Pensioners who have left the UK knew what the deal was before they left.

 

I felt that Mr Eadie obfuscated and waffled but I suspect that he was instructed to do that and he made an excellent job of it. He seemed to know what he was talking about even though his waffling had a soporific effect on me - and on most of the 17 Judges, I suspect.

 

Mr Eadie blamed the Australian Government for the bill that the Aussie taxpayer is obliged to pick up. About 50% of the 'frozen' British Pensioners live in Australia, so I suppose that the Aussie Govt always was going to cop it from Mr Eadie QC. According to him, iif there were a bi-lateral Social Security agreement between Oz and the UK, the British State Pensions payable to the British Pensioners in Oz would be uprated annually (notwithstanding that the British Government didn't even agree to that idea until the ECHR forced them into accepting it in October 2008.)

 

According to Mr Eadie, some 250,000 British Pensioners live in Australia but only about 25,000 Aussie Pensioners live in the UK. He implied (ie tacitly suggested heavily) that this is the main reason why the Aussie Government will not consider a bilateral Agreement with the UK.

 

Mr Eadie conveniently decided not to mention the fact that British Immigration law prevents an Aussie in the UK from importing his Parents to the UK unless the Aussie Parents have no children between them except for the ones in the UK and the Parents have to be completely destitute in their own country before they can prove themselves to be eligible to migrate to the UK. Is the imbalance pointed out by Mr Eadie due to a lack of desire on the part of Australian Citizens or is it because of the fact that the British Government treats would-be immigrant Parents to the UK so harshly?

 

Either way, the "frozen" British Pensioners have lost the legal battle for good, this time. There is nobody else that they can appeal to via the legal process.

 

The Lib-Dems in the UK have always argued on behalf of the "frozen" British Pensioners. If Parliament becomes a hung Parliament in May 2010, the Lib-Dems might then hold the balance of power. If that happened, would they still support the "frozen" British Pensioners or would they then scuttle off and blame their lack of action on "the law," I wonder?

 

I suspect that ICBP plan to try to do a deal with the Lib-Dems over the next couple of days...... Presumably they will also talk to the Tories as well and find out what - if any - support the Tories would promise to provide.

 

Apparently the Aussie Government has to pay about $100 million AUD a year to the "frozen" British Pensioners in Oz. So said Ava Hubble, who is a well-respected Aussie journalist writing for the Australian:

 

British expats in Australia await UK pension decision | Perth Now

 

I suspect that $100 million plus 250,000 British Pensioners in Oz would not be enough of either money or people to force a bi-lateral Pensions Agreement between the UK and Oz. Mr Eadie argued that Australia has never wanted it for commercial reasons. The British Government could now ignore any such idea with impunity anyway.

 

It is a sad, sad day for all of the "frozen" British Pensioners and my heart goes out to them all, particularly to my mother because she is a British Pensioner living in Oz.

 

Cheers :cry:

 

Gill

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Guest guest30038

Guest guest30038

Posted
Posted

Yep. As I expected :rolleyes:

My only sourse of income until such time as I draw my pension in 3 yrs time is a small annuity of 1200 quid a year. That used to be worth 3000 bucks, it's now worth less than 2000. At least that fluctuates with the exchange rate and you do at least have some small chance of having it gain, but the pension? Bah Humbug!

 

Mr Grumpy

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StevieF8 PIO Chatter Box

StevieF8

Posted
Posted

Ok, I have a few questions regarding this ruling

 

what is preventing people from moving back to the UK, move in with a relative or friend, even just for a few weeks, get the increased pension, then 'emigrate' again letting the pensions office you are leaving???

 

or just dont tell them in the first place - have your pension paid into a UK account and withdraw the cash in Oz???

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Guest Gollywobbler

Guest Gollywobbler

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Ok, I have a few questions regarding this ruling

 

what is preventing people from moving back to the UK, move in with a relative or friend, even just for a few weeks, get the increased pension, then 'emigrate' again letting the pensions office you are leaving???

 

or just dont tell them in the first place - have your pension paid into a UK account and withdraw the cash in Oz???

 

Hi StevieF

 

Whilst the Pensioner is physically in the UK, the uprate is paid. However once they leave the UK again, their pension reverts to the old, "frozen" rate.

 

Your other idea has the disadvantage of being illegal, my friend. Not many British Pensioners are willing to risk being nicked for Benefits Fraud. The first thing that the dole office in the UK would do if they found out would be to stop ALL payments to the person concerned. Would ending up with no money at all be useful to a British Pensioner in Oz?

 

Cheers

 

Gill

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StevieF8 PIO Chatter Box

StevieF8

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Hi StevieF

 

Whilst the Pensioner is physically in the UK, the uprate is paid. However once they leave the UK again, their pension reverts to the old, "frozen" rate.

 

 

 

OK - get this now, - hadn't read anywhere that that was the case

 

Hi StevieF

 

Your other idea has the disadvantage of being illegal, my friend. Not many British Pensioners are willing to risk being nicked for Benefits Fraud. The first thing that the dole office in the UK would do if they found out would be to stop ALL payments to the person concerned. Would ending up with no money at all be useful to a British Pensioner in Oz?

 

 

 

So your saying if I pay into my pension for 40 years, move to Oz and dont tell the DWP my pension would be stopped if they found out I had gone?

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