british jobs for british people,lmao

[Guest proud2beaussie]

This is the current page on the UK Border Agency website that deals with workers,I have not read through it so won't comment on how hard or easy it is to migrate to the UK but just looking at it quickly it looks fairly similar in some ways to the Australian system with categories for sponsorship etc.

UK Border Agency | Working in the UK

[Guest JoanneHattersley]

Thanks Nigel x

[Guest fatpom]

Actually it's very different because the Australian states are all part of one country,which is not the system with the EU,and also even if you move states in Australia you will not (apart from minor differences) be paid any different for your work than any other Australian,yes there are state awards for some occupations but basically if I as a chef choose to work in Sydney instead of Hobart then I will be paid the same .that is very different to EU workers being paid significantly less than a Brit for the same job.

I did some research last year and found out that around 65% of all London pubs are employing illegal immigrants and paying them less than the minimum wage,in preference to hiring British workers,

 

But Australia is a federal system? Each state has its own government and legislative. These are subordinate to the federal gov and legis where conflict arises but otherwise each state runs itself with its own parliament, courts, police force, public authorities and legislation. There are some federally controlled critical systems such as international affairs, defence and taxation etc but otherwise its the states which run the day to day matters.

 

Whilst not understanding the EU federal system to the same degree it seems very similar except that each state in Europe still has its own defence forces and raises its own revenue. But otherwise for the citizens of Europe day to day it seems its a federal system like most others.

 

As for earnings in Aus being comparable across all states? Well all I can say is that its certainly not in my industry sector. Some states are better than others and generally pay in metro areas is better than rural.

 

If you did research on pubs in Sydney the figures probably wouldn't be an aweful lot better. Many of them would be pommy visa overstayers I reckon? Try finding a pub in Manly which is staffed by Aussies. :biglaugh:

[Guest proud2beaussie]

I don't think you can compare the EU which is a body made up of member countries that have joined together to promote equality in trade and free access of citizens without immigration control.it's a lot more complicated really but thats the nub of the system,it's not really a federal system because each of these countries has their own defence forces etc ,it's really just an economic community .the Australian states are in my opinion an unneccesary level of government anyway as just about all functions of government such as health etc are funded directly by the commonwealth from taxation revenue ,things would be much simpler without state governments but thats another argument.so I really dont think the two are comparable.

As for pay rates differing from metro to rural areas,well 90% of Australian workers who are not on workplace agreements are payed under a federal award and that means that a chef employed alone at a pub in Birdsville must legally be paid the same,(actually a bit more) as a chef at a hotel in Manly.,that is unless he is employed under some obscure state award,in which case there could be differences I agree.

The European Community is not a bad thing ,I am not saying that for a minute,but there needs to be restrictions that prevent companies taking on cheap foreign labour,and there are restrictions available,but the Blair government did not sign up for them and that is,I think the point that Pablo was trying to make in his original post (hope thats correct Pablo?) that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the EU principle,but there has to be some limits to protect the jobs of each member country.

The Australian immigration department regularly checks businesses suspected of employing illegal immigrants so the figures would be very different,I might add that the UK government has just begun a crackdown on the same problem in Britain,a good move,but about three years too late.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Economy

[Guest proud2beaussie]

Also what it comes down to is that the EU is a collective OF governments,whereas the Australian states are governments in their own right.

[Guest NikiOH]

Here here!!! Its the UK all over. It's so politically correct now that you can't even call your poo brown!!! I get sick to death of it all and so does everyone I speak to back in the UK. Australia has a hell of a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world but at least their attitude is 'if you don't like it - go back home'!! (in the nicest way!!!). Your certainly not alone with your thoughts though. Thing is, all brits do it sit and talk about how pissed off they are about it. A few years ago in Sydney there were the race riots where all the ozzies were holding banners saying 'In australia, be an australian' (basically) so they speak up and stand up for their country. I bet that if every brit living in the UK did one big mass rally, the government would have to stand up and take note.

[Guest 0405delboy]

Here here!!! Its the UK all over. It's so politically correct now that you can't even call your poo brown!!! I get sick to death of it all and so does everyone I speak to back in the UK. Australia has a hell of a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world but at least their attitude is 'if you don't like it - go back home'!! (in the nicest way!!!). Your certainly not alone with your thoughts though. Thing is, all brits do it sit and talk about how pissed off they are about it. A few years ago in Sydney there were the race riots where all the ozzies were holding banners saying 'In australia, be an australian' (basically) so they speak up and stand up for their country. I bet that if every brit living in the UK did one big mass rally, the government would have to stand up and take note.

 

 

Thats right!! I love the fact that Australia is unafraid of the fall out of having a say. I truly believe that this is the only country left where its OK to be Anglo and still have a say!! Dare I say that but I have strong shoulders!!

[Guest fatpom]

Here here!!! Its the UK all over. It's so politically correct now that you can't even call your poo brown!!! I get sick to death of it all and so does everyone I speak to back in the UK. Australia has a hell of a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world but at least their attitude is 'if you don't like it - go back home'!! (in the nicest way!!!). Your certainly not alone with your thoughts though. Thing is, all brits do it sit and talk about how pissed off they are about it. A few years ago in Sydney there were the race riots where all the ozzies were holding banners saying 'In australia, be an australian' (basically) so they speak up and stand up for their country. I bet that if every brit living in the UK did one big mass rally, the government would have to stand up and take note.

 

Those riots weren't very edifying at all for Australia. Most pollies and commentators were distancing themselves from that event as soon as the facts became clear. As you may recall it became an incident of international shame. Policemen risked their lives that day to protect individuals who were in real danger of losing their lives for simply being olive skinned in appearance.

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of it all, a very nasty side to Australia reared its head that day.

[Guest Andy]

We'll soon be having "Australian jobs for Australians".

 

Don't kid yourselves that because you're a pom or "skilled" that somehow it won't mean you. You will be taking a job off an Australian or worse still bludging off the state... like all those other bloody immigrants. :biglaugh:

If I am going to bludge off the state in oz, it wont be until i have paid my fair share into the system. How many immigrants that live in England that recieve help from the government have given or intend to give anything back, its all take, take ,take, and it is the same for the lazy brits who see benefit as a lifestyle choice. Well i for one am sick of it, and also sick of you comparing someone who comes to England on the back of a lorry, with someone who goes through 2 years of rigorous vetting and huge expense to go somewhere because they want a better life for themselves.:tongue:

[Guest fatpom]

If I am going to bludge off the state in oz, it wont be until i have paid my fair share into the system. How many immigrants that live in England that recieve help from the government have given or intend to give anything back, its all take, take ,take, and it is the same for the lazy brits who see benefit as a lifestyle choice. Well i for one am sick of it, and also sick of you comparing someone who comes to England on the back of a lorry, with someone who goes through 2 years of rigorous vetting and huge expense to go somewhere because they want a better life for themselves.:tongue:

 

You still don't get it. :smile: Most of these people arriving on the back of a truck are fellow europeans entitled to live and work anywhere in the EU, just as you are.

 

The vetting system you're going through now is similar to any Aussie trying to go to the UK or pretty much any other country for that matter. Foreigners wishing to migrate to a country must go through that kind of process.

 

These people arriving on trucks just want a better life for themselves as it appears so do you. Good on yer for that, but why can't you support others taking the same opportunity?

 

Finally you'll find at least as many bludgers in Aus as in the UK. Not ideal but simply a fact of modern life.

[The Ozcans]

I think the fact that they are on the 'back of a truck' is proof that they are not legally entering Uk.

Therefore not 'entitled to live and work anywhere' or everywhere.

[Mongrel]

On hols in Turkey in 2008 a waiter was chatting and had worked with his mates at the oilrefinery in Wales or ther west cant remember now ( rakkified) as they aint in europe they were workin illegally , its the friggin bosses who employ them thats the problem

 

Mally

[pablo]

:smile:

Why is it that some Brits can't get their head around federal Europe?

You can live in any part of the EU you choose to and the same goes for all other Europeans who are part of the EU. Its just the same as federal Australia. You can choose to move to any of the other states if you want to at any time.

Federal Europe is a system which benefits all Europeans including Brits. Without it the UK is some insignificant (albeit moderately wealthy) little island experiencing gradual growing insignificance on the world stage.

 

If you don't come from an EU country then getting a residence visa for the UK is (or at least certainly was) a very difficult thing to achieve. You had to have something like a PhD, or a very particular skill to stand any chance. In fact the only realistic way to gain residency was through marriage or humanitarian for the great majority of people. For an Australian marriage was the only way (unless their parents/grandparents are British citizens by birth).

 

As for undercutting the locals? That's exactly what you will do indirectly. Business tells the federal gov what skills it is short of (ie currently expensive). Then priority is given to these skill groups to flood the Australian market and through simple 'supply and demand' labour costs are reduced to meet business expectations. I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all, competition is good for all of us ultimately but don't kid yourself that somehow you're not part of a labour cost control and minimisation. :smile:

its nothing to do with "not getting my head round a federal europe" thx, my gripe is that the so called richer countries in europe will allways be flooded with cheap foreign labour,as regards me undercutting australians, i wont. i will insist on earning the same as the man next to me,as long as im doing the job as well as he is then i want the same money( once ive proved myself of course ),if im treated as cheap foreign labour i will leave and come back here,thats a promise. competition is good for the bosses thats all, how can it be good for me when ive spent the last 20 years on a living wage, and then the market is flooded with cheap foreign labour willing to do the job for 50% less?!!!! less than the union rate etc? no,i can assure you i wont be undercutting anybody like that. of course i realise that importing more bricklayers into australia gives the existing brickies less leverage when it comes to demanding higher wages,but thats NOT the same as people coming here and undercutting me by 50% is it?as regards getting immigration into uk being as hard as us applying for oz........its not! and that is what you stated originally,we were talking about eu nationals coming here,and us getting into oz,now your talking about non eu nationals,that wasnt your original point was it?anyway,you have your opinion and i have mine,i just hope that 1 day your industry is flooded with people willing to do your job for half the money,then we'l see if you think its a good thing,eh?Theres competition,and theres depriving people of a living,if you condone people undercutting others by 50%,whats the next step,condoning the sweatshops in china?if you mean the fruits of competition will be passed on to the consumer ,your wrong! any extra profits will be pocketed by the fat cat bosses,thats all. take a look at the petroleum industry.........oil prices go up so they "have to" pass on the rises to the consumer they said,what happened? record profits!case in point.

[Guest treesea]

If I am going to bludge off the state in oz, it wont be until i have paid my fair share into the system. How many immigrants that live in England that recieve help from the government have given or intend to give anything back, its all take, take ,take, and it is the same for the lazy brits who see benefit as a lifestyle choice. Well i for one am sick of it, and also sick of you comparing someone who comes to England on the back of a lorry, with someone who goes through 2 years of rigorous vetting and huge expense to go somewhere because they want a better life for themselves.:tongue:

 

Have you ever been down on your luck, made redundant, been "too old" to be considered for a job you are fully qualified to do? It sure doesn't sound like it. How about you get off your high horse and leave struggling Brits, most of whom need benefits through no fault of their own, alone. Having a job, when there aren't enough jobs to go around, is a privilege, not a right. What you have a right to is enough money to live on and a roof over your head - hence the benefit system. Do you seriously think all those car assembly workers who are now out of work are on benefits because they can't be bothered to work anymore? From what I can see, most people on benefits in the UK and in Australia can't get jobs.

 

And there are heaps of people, including Brits, who emigrate to Australia and don't make it and end up coming back, because there's no safety net in Australia for most immigrants, not at all for those on working visas and only after two years for those on permanent residence visas. Most immigrants who come to Britain work for a living, the vast majority of them in fact, because for some stupid reason British companies seem to prefer to employ a foreigner to employing one of their own. Gordon Brown said "British jobs for British workers". Well, if he can't put up, he should have shut up and never opened his mouth, because he sure isn't doing anything to persuade British domiciled businesses to take on British workers.

[Guest fatpom]

competition is good for the bosses thats all,

 

i just hope that 1 day your industry is flooded with people willing to do your job for half the money,then we'l see if you think its a good thing,eh?

Theres competition,and theres depriving people of a living,if you condone people undercutting others by 50%,whats the next step,condoning the sweatshops in china?if you mean the fruits of competition will be passed on to the consumer ,your wrong! any extra profits will be pocketed by the fat cat bosses,thats all.

 

Nice man you are? :biglaugh: Sadly your wishes have come too late my friend, most of my kind of work has already gone to China.

 

Thats called healthy competition and the reason why you and I can afford white goods, brown goods and just about any other durables in the shops. And I, just like everyone else will buy the cheapest quality goods I can afford without much thought as to the wider social issues.

 

No-one is owed a living... you have to earn it and be worth it.

[pablo]

Nice man you are? Sadly your wishes have come too late my friend, most of my kind of work has already gone to China.

 

Thats called healthy competition and the reason why you and I can afford white goods, brown goods and just about any other durables in the shops. And I, just like everyone else will buy the cheapest quality goods I can afford without much thought as to the wider social issues.

 

No-one is owed a living... you have to earn it and be worth it.

About as nice as you are:wink:,so taking your assertion that undercutting builders by 50%is "healthy competition" to its logical conclusion.................if every single employed person in the uk had to take a 50% drop in wages it would be good for the uk would it? nah,i think you will find the country would collapse,thats why its "minimum union rate",im talking about trades and services,not manufacturing anyway. as regards "nobody being owed a living", tell me something i dont know! ive been out of work numerous times since 89,ive never asked anyone for anything,if im out of work i borrow,live on savings/whatever,i dont think im owed anything off anyone.just the right to a minimum living wage,i earned my stripes in the late 70's getting taken to work on the back of a pickup truck in the middle of winter,dropped in a field with no toilets,washing facilities,shelter etc. pick up "the ragged trousered philanthropist" by robert tressel, it tells the story of one mans battle for rights for building workers,it also tells how the working classes were there own worst enemy, "its just the way it is " they said,remind you of anyone????:biggrin:

[Guest sexkit001]

I have been reading this thread with interest but just never sure on where to jump in so to speak... My OH is a roofer and works his arse off, yes he works with some lads that don't pull their weight but you will get that anywhere, on one of the sites a number of foreign workers were employed and hardly spoke any english I dont wish to sound racist or anything but it made working conditions hazardous when working with the tools, plus Glyn spent most of his time having to teach him what to do, needless to say more foreign workers were still employed and Glyn now works in Saudi Arabia for minimum 3 months at a time with only two weeks leave in between, as finding sites to work on here (UK) has become increasingly difficult, due to the site no longer being able to continue with its project or capacity to take the lads on ....

 

xx

[Guest Andy]

Have you ever been down on your luck, made redundant, been "too old" to be considered for a job you are fully qualified to do? It sure doesn't sound like it. How about you get off your high horse and leave struggling Brits, most of whom need benefits through no fault of their own, alone. Having a job, when there aren't enough jobs to go around, is a privilege, not a right. What you have a right to is enough money to live on and a roof over your head - hence the benefit system. Do you seriously think all those car assembly workers who are now out of work are on benefits because they can't be bothered to work anymore? From what I can see, most people on benefits in the UK and in Australia can't get jobs.

 

And there are heaps of people, including Brits, who emigrate to Australia and don't make it and end up coming back, because there's no safety net in Australia for most immigrants, not at all for those on working visas and only after two years for those on permanent residence visas. Most immigrants who come to Britain work for a living, the vast majority of them in fact, because for some stupid reason British companies seem to prefer to employ a foreigner to employing one of their own. Gordon Brown said "British jobs for British workers". Well, if he can't put up, he should have shut up and never opened his mouth, because he sure isn't doing anything to persuade British domiciled businesses to take on British workers.

Treesea, you have managed to twist my post into something it is not. It is clear our benefit system has/is being exploited by certain people who like I said in my post see the system as a lifestyle choice. I certainly would not put people in the car industry or any other industry that has fallen on hard times into that bracket. These are the sort of people who should be getting support from the taxpayer, and also yes I do think there are plenty of people on benefit that are on because they can,t be bothered, and if you think that is not the case then you are deluded.

[Guest fatpom]

im talking about trades and services,not manufacturing anyway.

 

Ahhhh! :smile: So only your kind are precious enough to be protected?

 

What about the plumbers, sparkies, gas fitters, builders and other tradesmen I hire to do work in manufacturing facilities?

 

Although I now feel a bit of a lone figure since all these hard nosed capitalists have suddenly found socialism (now that the going gets tough for them too :biglaugh:) I'm as convinced as ever that protectionism ultimately depletes economies?

[pablo]

Ahhhh! :smile: So only your kind are precious enough to be protected?

 

What about the plumbers, sparkies, gas fitters, builders and other tradesmen I hire to do work in manufacturing facilities?

 

Although I now feel a bit of a lone figure since all these hard nosed capitalists have suddenly found socialism (now that the going gets tough for them too :biglaugh:) I'm as convinced as ever that protectionism ultimately depletes economies?

No,not at all,but my point is its much more difficult for say a uk company that makes fridges to compete with a chinese company that makes fridges,isnt it?the british gvnmt doesnt realy have any control over that does it? however it should have some control within its own borders! theres a world of difference in protecting manufacturing jobs that can be outsourced around the world and inviting people into your own country to undercut you by 50% isnt there?protectionism? its a decent living wage,thats all,and anybody who works for less is a maggot in my opinion,wether they be from the uk or abroad,but anyway....your original point was that its as difficult for EU nationals to come and work in the uk as it is for us to emigrate to oz,you never did answer my questions re medicals,vetasses tests,police checks etc for emigration to oz compared to jumping on a bus in warsaw and landing in waterloo station???????????

[Life on easy street]

I have seen close to 90% my industry exported to other countries in the last 25 years.

Between 1990 & 1995 70% of my work colleagues lost their jobs because of cheap competition In the Far East.

Thankfully i was premoted & did not loose my house.

My work was transferred no less than 3 times since 2003 at three different companies.

1st time work transferred to the check republic.

2nd time work transferred to India.

3rd time I had to instruct a Chinese worker how to do 1/3 of my job one month later that work was transferred to the company’s Chinese factory.

Thankfully this was just before I announced to the company I was emigrating to Australia.

I in all that time I have heard no one protest

Still as long as you have a cheap television and music centres etc that’s all right.

[Life on easy street]

Ahhhh! :smile: So only your kind are precious enough to be protected?

 

What about the plumbers, sparkies, gas fitters, builders and other tradesmen I hire to do work in manufacturing facilities?

 

Although I now feel a bit of a lone figure since all these hard nosed capitalists have suddenly found socialism (now that the going gets tough for them too :biglaugh:) I'm as convinced as ever that protectionism ultimately depletes economies?

 

 

I agree well said

[pablo]

I agree well said

you agree about what? i buy british whenever i can,and i stick to that,fatpom and plenty of others buy whatever is the cheapest quality goods, thats why there's no manufacturing industry anymore,its not hard to find out which goods are british,or at least "say" their british.btw,if someone asked me to show someone else my job i would tell them to work it where the sun dont shine.

[Guest fatpom]

No,not at all,but my point is its much more difficult for say a uk company that makes fridges to compete with a chinese company that makes fridges,isnt it?the british gvnmt doesnt realy have any control over that does it? however it should have some control within its own borders! theres a world of difference in protecting manufacturing jobs that can be outsourced around the world and inviting people into your own country to undercut you by 50% isnt there?protectionism? its a decent living wage,thats all,and anybody who works for less is a maggot in my opinion,wether they be from the uk or abroad,but anyway....your original point was that its as difficult for EU nationals to come and work in the uk as it is for us to emigrate to oz,you never did answer my questions re medicals,vetasses tests,police checks etc for emigration to oz compared to jumping on a bus in warsaw and landing in waterloo station???????????

 

Not correct... traditionally local manufacturing has been protected using import tariffs. These have been abandoned largely through free trade agreements which benefits consumers.

 

My original point was that most of these poeple you're raging against are fellow europeans and perfectly entitled to work and abode in the UK. As a side issue I pointed out that the immigration system for non-europeans into the UK is going to be pretty similar to your current process for Aus.

[Guest fatpom]

you agree about what? i buy british whenever i can,and i stick to that,fatpom and plenty of others buy whatever is the cheapest quality goods, thats why there's no manufacturing industry anymore,its not hard to find out which goods are british,or at least "say" their british.btw,if someone asked me to show someone else my job i would tell them to work it where the sun dont shine.

 

Its very unlikely that you know what's "British Made" and what's not. Its called "Badge Engineering"

 

The parts are made offshore packed into cases then re-assembled (literally bolted together) in the UK/Aus. This usually gets around the issue of "origin of manufacture" and allows the goods to be declared as "Made in UK/Aus" etc.

Its also a much more efficient way of freighting foreign made goods... you don't pay for freight of too much fresh air such as the inside of the fridges you mentioned earlier.