Breaking News - 457 Visas Stopped

[Guest263228]

On ‎7‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 18:24, AJ said:

You have been here 41/2 years, if you are so crucial to this business why did they not sponsor you for PR before now?

I'm afraid some folk perhaps over estimate their importance in the bigger picture of things. All too many appear to possess a sense of entitlement to PR when coming out on a temporally visa. I would concede though in cases not entirely their fault as given ill advise.

[Guest263228]

On ‎6‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 15:57, Starrynight said:

They should go out and fill them then!

Indeed they should. Any thoughts as to why that it is not necessary happening?

[MaggieMay24]

17 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Indeed they should. Any thoughts as to why that it is not necessary happening?

Because many many times the properly qualified candidates aren't available in the location where the position is, or locals simply aren't interested in applying.  You can't force people to take jobs that are advertised.

[Guest263228]

13 minutes ago, MaggieMay24 said:

Because many many times the properly qualified candidates aren't available in the location where the position is, or locals simply aren't interested in applying.  You can't force people to take jobs that are advertised.

Just how would that be ascertained if market testing is not conducted as I mentioned in a far earlier comment? There are numerous advantages to employing offshore 457's. Being contracted to work for employer, ensures an employee will put up with a lot more than a local. Some a certainly paid a lesser rate not to mention a market proven person, with the likelihood of little training required. 

[Raul Senise]

3 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

There are numerous advantages to employing offshore 457's. Being contracted to work for employer, ensures an employee will put up with a lot more than a local. Some a certainly paid a lesser rate not to mention a market proven person, with the likelihood of little training required. 

I'm curious on what you base your assertions on. Are you an employer? 

[Guest263228]

4 hours ago, Raul Senise said:

I'm curious on what you base your assertions on. Are you an employer? 

Why would an assumption be made an employer? I assume you know the answer to that already. If you must pigeon hole me. just put me done as a very well informed observer to what is being undertaken by government and various stake holders and vested interests, with the well being of the general Australian population in no way a prime consideration.

I could debate this matter until the cows come home. But alas it is not a matter apparently allowed to be debated on this forum and was sanctioned on a previous occasion. Thus I intend not to comment further on the matter. Hardly fair to ask me to do so.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

8 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Why would an assumption be made an employer? I assume you know the answer to that already. If you must pigeon hole me. just put me done as a very well informed observer to what is being undertaken by government and various stake holders and vested interests, with the well being of the general Australian population in no way a prime consideration.

I could debate this matter until the cows come home. But alas it is not a matter apparently allowed to be debated on this forum and was sanctioned on a previous occasion. Thus I intend not to comment further on the matter. Hardly fair to ask me to do so.

@Pura Vida you are more than welcome to start your own thread in the correct forum and you can then "debate until the cows come home"

[Starrynight]

11 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Just how would that be ascertained if market testing is not conducted as I mentioned in a far earlier comment? There are numerous advantages to employing offshore 457's. Being contracted to work for employer, ensures an employee will put up with a lot more than a local. Some a certainly paid a lesser rate not to mention a market proven person, with the likelihood of little training required. 

Companies are scrutinised and have to pay the correct rates. I'm just wondering, with the name of this website being Pomsinoz, are you one?

[AJ]

6 minutes ago, Starrynight said:

Companies are scrutinised and have to pay the correct rates. I'm just wondering, with the name of this website being Pomsinoz, are you one?

Companies are not scrutinised that closely!  I know someone who was sponsored for a trade he didnt even do, paid the sponsor!  I know that at least two people reported it but still here happy as larry!

[Starrynight]

1 minute ago, AJ said:

Companies are not scrutinised that closely!  I know someone who was sponsored for a trade he didnt even do, paid the sponsor!  I know that at least two people reported it but still here happy as larry!

Ok thank you and fair enough, but this doesn't mean that the majority of employers and 457 visa holders should be penalised! Being against 457 holders, as some people on here seem to be is unfair, and if they realised the individual circumstances, they may have a different view.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

52 minutes ago, Starrynight said:

Companies are scrutinised and have to pay the correct rates. I'm just wondering, with the name of this website being Pomsinoz, are you one?

Hi @Starrynight please try not to read people's comments the wrong way. It can be hard at times withnthe written word but 99% of our members are very friendly and helpful. Unfortunately @AJ is correct in that the system was abused. People were brought in to Oz with their skills but then used as dogs bodies, it was terrible. A lot of these workers put up with terrible conditions because they didn't want to leave the country. There was one just recently where they paid the worker the going rate then took him straight to a cash machine and made him pay most of it back as "board and lodgings".

The 457 was never a permanent route in to Australia and for many years we have seen families sell their homes, spend their life savings only for their contracts to be terminated and get sent back home with nothing, if they were lucky the employer paid their flights. Something had to be done, changes had to be made but for me it was to protect these poor families.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

13 hours ago, MaggieMay24 said:

Because many many times the properly qualified candidates aren't available in the location where the position is, or locals simply aren't interested in applying.  You can't force people to take jobs that are advertised.

It's funny you should say that @MaggieMay24 only this morning on the way to hospital it was 6am and all the surrounding fields where we live were full of Asian people picking fruit and vegetables. There was not one white face. It is nothing to do with them taking jobs from us, it's that none of the locals want to get out of bed and put in a hard day's work. I really do take my hats off to the Asians, they work very hard and deserve to be treat right.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

@Starrynight here was the article I referred to earlier, unfortunately it wasn't an isolated incident there have been thousands of cases.

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/article/2017/09/06/sushil-kumar-faces-court-over-alleged-exploitation-457-visa-worker

[Starrynight]

2 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

Hi @Starrynight please try not to read people's comments the wrong way. It can be hard at times withnthe written word but 99% of our members are very friendly and helpful. Unfortunately @AJ is correct in that the system was abused. People were brought in to Oz with their skills but then used as dogs bodies, it was terrible. A lot of these workers put up with terrible conditions because they didn't want to leave the country. There was one just recently where they paid the worker the going rate then took him straight to a cash machine and made him pay most of it back as "board and lodgings".

The 457 was never a permanent route in to Australia and for many years we have seen families sell their homes, spend their life savings only for their contracts to be terminated and get sent back home with nothing, if they were lucky the employer paid their flights. Something had to be done, changes had to be made but for me it was to protect these poor families.

I understand all of this Pom Queen and that is awful. However, most companies and 457 visa holders do the right thing. Plue, there is a route to PR that comes with the 457 visa and that is what we had... until they changed the age limit. That is what I am talking about. If the job disappeared off the list, or the company terminated the employment, fair enough, but the route to PR should stay for people who are still employed etc.

[Starrynight]

2 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

@Starrynight here was the article I referred to earlier, unfortunately it wasn't an isolated incident there have been thousands of cases.

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/article/2017/09/06/sushil-kumar-faces-court-over-alleged-exploitation-457-visa-worker

I don't, and never have disputed this. I am merely saying there is a route to PR for 457 holders and that has been taken away.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Just now, Starrynight said:

I understand all of this Pom Queen and that is awful. However, most companies and 457 visa holders do the right thing. Plue, there is a route to PR that comes with the 457 visa and that is what we had... until they changed the age limit. That is what I am talking about. If the job disappeared off the list, or the company terminated the employment, fair enough, but the route to PR should stay for people who are still employed etc.

Hun I really do feel for you, I don't like to see people's dreams vanish, especially when they have given up so much to get here. Unfortunately though the 457 was never ever a permanent route in to the country, it was never advertised as such and it always stated it was temporary. I know of a young family with 6 children who moved over on a student visa, back in the day that was also being used as a stepping stone in to the country, unfortunately they clamped down and this poor family returned home to nothing.

At one point they use to say if you had Citizenship you were safe, rules have changed again and now even people with citizenship can be deported (although I do agree with the reasoning as it's usually terror/crime related)

[Guest The Pom Queen]

2 minutes ago, Starrynight said:

I don't, and never have disputed this. I am merely saying there is a route to PR for 457 holders and that has been taken away.

Many of our members were lucky to secure a route to PR from the 457 but everyone comes here knowing it is a risk and may never happen. 

[Raul Senise]

13 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

just put me done as a very well informed observer 

Based on most of your comments, I would not classify you as well informed at all. You seem to base most of your opinion on anecdotes, sensationalist articles and hearsay.

13 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

But alas it is not a matter apparently allowed to be debated on this forum and was sanctioned on a previous occasion. 

This seems to be the standard fallback for anyone who has their opinion challenged. Rather than consider reasonable comments, you would rather play the part of the victim.

As previously stated, you can put forward any opinion you like, just don't get upset if people challenge your comments. 

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, Raul Senise said:

Based on most of your comments, I would not classify you as well informed at all. You seem to base most of your opinion on anecdotes, sensationalist articles and hearsay.

This seems to be the standard fallback for anyone who has their opinion challenged. Rather than consider reasonable comments, you would rather play the part of the victim.

As previously stated, you can put forward any opinion you like, just don't get upset if people challenge your comments. 

I have clearly stated the reality of the situation to you in previous posts to which I was indeed sanctioned.  You gave no adequate response to any of the matters raised, from lack of work place testing (thankfully some improvement with latest changes but not nearly far enough) In fact you boo hoed one rather independent critique that didn't comply with your world view. 

I certainly don't get upset on any challenge, which I have yet to detect on your part, beyond a well worn line of the official given level. Immigration on the levels experienced post boom is neither wise nor good for Australia and threatens to endanger a very successful migration program. My critique is inclusive of but far from entirely market place testing but is also a question of numbers.

Australia is one of the, if not the, fastest growing first world countries in the world. We do not need big populations in the future with changes in technology. Notice any correlation between stagnation in wages,  housing inflation and cities unable to cope due to poor infrastructure with near record immigration levels ?  If you want to take the population along, agreeing with discrepancies all too obvious within present migration policy ' will ensure continued support.  

Not only  my opinion. Facts. Obviously vested interests will view their bread and butter in a different light but the reality remains.

I'm only answering this as you have made a personal reference, belittling on my awareness/knowledge  of the subject . Obviously could add far more to this but will leave it as stands. I for one moment do not expect to reach an accord with you on the matter nor really care. It is just IMO wise to acknowledge  that there are hardening views and experiences within society at large that the government has even become aware of in recent times and started making the right noises. Not that I agree with all being suggested, being pro migration and anti discrimination.

[Guest263228]

13 hours ago, Starrynight said:

Companies are scrutinised and have to pay the correct rates. I'm just wondering, with the name of this website being Pomsinoz, are you one?

Sorry simply not true. I wish it was.  The original concept was fine. It made total sense. As for your riddle I'll answer by saying I am indeed in Oz.  Does it matter if I am a Bangla Deshi  or an EU citizen or even a Pom?

[Guest263228]

13 hours ago, Starrynight said:

Ok thank you and fair enough, but this doesn't mean that the majority of employers and 457 visa holders should be penalised! Being against 457 holders, as some people on here seem to be is unfair, and if they realised the individual circumstances, they may have a different view.

Whose against 457's if filling a role originally intended? I totally applaud it. What does upset people and over turns what was a very necessary requirement, especially during the boom period, in becoming over used and thus abused , has in the eyes of many raised perfectly reasonable questions. Should it be used as an instrument for employers to misuse the original sound intent?

[Raul Senise]

2 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

I have clearly stated the reality of the situation to you in previous posts to which I was indeed sanctioned.  You gave no adequate response to any of the matters raised, from lack of work place testing (thankfully some improvement with latest changes but not nearly far enough) In fact you boo hoed one rather independent critique that didn't comply with your world view. 

I certainly don't get upset on any challenge, which I have yet to detect on your part, beyond a well worn line of the official given level. Immigration on the levels experienced post boom is neither wise nor good for Australia and threatens to endanger a very successful migration program. My critique is inclusive of but far from entirely market place testing but is also a question of numbers.

Australia is one of the, if not the, fastest growing first world countries in the world. We do not need big populations in the future with changes in technology. Notice any correlation between stagnation in wages,  housing inflation and cities unable to cope due to poor infrastructure with near record immigration levels ?  If you want to take the population along, agreeing with discrepancies all too obvious within present migration policy ' will ensure continued support.  

Not only  my opinion. Facts. Obviously vested interests will view their bread and butter in a different light but the reality remains.

I'm only answering this as you have made a personal reference, belittling on my awareness/knowledge  of the subject . Obviously could add far more to this but will leave it as stands. I for one moment do not expect to reach an accord with you on the matter nor really care. It is just IMO wise to acknowledge  that there are hardening views and experiences within society at large that the government has even become aware of in recent times and started making the right noises. Not that I agree with all being suggested, being pro migration and anti discrimination.

I asked if you were an employer as you are quick to state how easily it is to employ someone under a 457 and how many local staff are missing out. The reality I suspect, is that you have never sponsored or employed anybody and have no practical experience of the reality of the situation.

I actually agree with you on a number of points, but believe that your ire is misplaced on the subclass 457 program.

The subclass 457 visa program has been one of the most successful at meeting its purposes of filling skills shortages which cannot be readily filled by local labour.

There is no doubt that there are some who abuse the system, but it is nowhere near as prevalent as what you want to believe.

My point is that the recent changes are extensive, damaging and unnecessary. Further they will do nothing to address any of the issues with the program and will ultimately harm Australian business and ultimately job opportunities.

The reality is that people employed under the subclass 457 visa program make up less than 1% of the workforce.  They are simply an easy target to be used for political purposes when necessary (as we have seen multiple times in the past, by both parties). Unfortunately, uniformed people are quick to pass judgement and easily manipulated to form an opinion against the “evil foreigners taking our jobs”, even when they know very little about the reality of the situation. You appear to be confusing your opinion with what you call “facts”.

I believe if your criticism  were more correctly directed at other less successful visa programs, you may receive less criticism of your posts.

[Mcguinnessp1968]

I asked if you were an employer as you are quick to state how easily it is to employ someone under a 457 and how many local staff are missing out. The reality I suspect, is that you have never sponsored or employed anybody and have no practical experience of the reality of the situation.
I actually agree with you on a number of points, but believe that your ire is misplaced on the subclass 457 program.
The subclass 457 visa program has been one of the most successful at meeting its purposes of filling skills shortages which cannot be readily filled by local labour.
There is no doubt that there are some who abuse the system, but it is nowhere near as prevalent as what you want to believe.
My point is that the recent changes are extensive, damaging and unnecessary. Further they will do nothing to address any of the issues with the program and will ultimately harm Australian business and ultimately job opportunities.
The reality is that people employed under the subclass 457 visa program make up less than 1% of the workforce.  They are simply an easy target to be used for political purposes when necessary (as we have seen multiple times in the past, by both parties). Unfortunately, uniformed people are quick to pass judgement and easily manipulated to form an opinion against the “evil foreigners taking our jobs”, even when they know very little about the reality of the situation. You appear to be confusing your opinion with what you call “facts”.
I believe if your criticism  were more correctly directed at other less successful visa programs, you may receive less criticism of your posts.

My 457 application was far from easy

[Starrynight]

19 hours ago, The Pom Queen said:

Hun I really do feel for you, I don't like to see people's dreams vanish, especially when they have given up so much to get here. Unfortunately though the 457 was never ever a permanent route in to the country, it was never advertised as such and it always stated it was temporary. I know of a young family with 6 children who moved over on a student visa, back in the day that was also being used as a stepping stone in to the country, unfortunately they clamped down and this poor family returned home to nothing.

At one point they use to say if you had Citizenship you were safe, rules have changed again and now even people with citizenship can be deported (although I do agree with the reasoning as it's usually terror/crime related)

Again...thank you Pom Queen. However, the 457 visa does have a route to PR through the TRT scheme, so as long as the job is still on the list, and the visa holder has a promise of a permanent job with the employer, this route should still apply.

 

10 minutes ago, Mcguinnessp1968 said:

 

My 457 application was far from easy

 

 

[Guest263228]

4 hours ago, Raul Senise said:

I asked if you were an employer as you are quick to state how easily it is to employ someone under a 457 and how many local staff are missing out. The reality I suspect, is that you have never sponsored or employed anybody and have no practical experience of the reality of the situation.

I actually agree with you on a number of points, but believe that your ire is misplaced on the subclass 457 program.

The subclass 457 visa program has been one of the most successful at meeting its purposes of filling skills shortages which cannot be readily filled by local labour.

There is no doubt that there are some who abuse the system, but it is nowhere near as prevalent as what you want to believe.

My point is that the recent changes are extensive, damaging and unnecessary. Further they will do nothing to address any of the issues with the program and will ultimately harm Australian business and ultimately job opportunities.

The reality is that people employed under the subclass 457 visa program make up less than 1% of the workforce.  They are simply an easy target to be used for political purposes when necessary (as we have seen multiple times in the past, by both parties). Unfortunately, uniformed people are quick to pass judgement and easily manipulated to form an opinion against the “evil foreigners taking our jobs”, even when they know very little about the reality of the situation. You appear to be confusing your opinion with what you call “facts”.

I believe if your criticism  were more correctly directed at other less successful visa programs, you may receive less criticism of your posts.

Put in this way, I know and have had personal experience of just how this matter has been dealt with by certain employers. I fully endorsed 457 in its early stages and it was a necessity for certain types of business especially during boom times and the need to gain professionals at short notice was indeed a priority.

Unfortunately greed, all too common, along with a broader knowledge of the visa by employers, whom should never have been giving the green light, to import workers, especially without proper market testing enforcement devalued the process. This and ever more workers being brought out on minimal permitted rates to work for example on construction sites, (yes, three out of five around me, inner city Perth, appear to have an over reliance of near neighbour construction workers) (In fact the other day, down the road from me as I was walking past, a foul mouthed Aussie foreman (I expect his rank) was giving a pile of crude abuse to a group of Asian workers, for a good minute. Right opposite a primary school as well. It tool all my will not to shout at him. Probably by the way, but I found it highly offensive, wondering if Aussie or PR residents would put up with such a tongue lashing.

Anyway if something akin to a 457 visa returned to what was originally intended I'm sure it would win sensible people's approval. But not as a replacement to semi skilled labour, or even worse, decimating this nations training schemes in the trade area for example. Nor to mention the abuse in the university area.

I'm very happy to see New Zealand Labour has committed to cutting by 30,000 their immigration level. Here in Australia no main political party will even discuss what has become an absolutely absurd policy of running the worlds biggest immigration program. (at least on a per capita basis) Even more absurd is most settle in one of two cities. Insane.