newjez Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I don't understand how we can keep an open borders with NI, but still have a closed border with the EU. I'm assuming this means GB has a closed border with NI? What's to stop goods and people being shipped through NI? Just can't see how this will work. Wouldn't it be better to give NI back to the Irish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Probably. NI voted to Remain in the EU too. Unfortunately the DUP would never countenance it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, newjez said: I don't understand how we can keep an open borders with NI, but still have a closed border with the EU. I'm assuming this means GB has a closed border with NI? What's to stop goods and people being shipped through NI? Just can't see how this will work. Wouldn't it be better to give NI back to the Irish? It is a complex one and I suspect it will end up a closed border. It certainly isn't as easy as just giving NI back - there is nothing to give "back". Even talk of unification would stir up troubles on a big scale. You need to remember that British troops did not go into NI because of the IRA. The original reason was to protect Catholics from unionists and the violent streak of Unionists have not gone away by any stretch and many are far more violent and nastier than the IRA. A united Ireland would very quickly be in civil war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 VERYSTORMY, I come from Northern Ireland and worked in the electricity supply industry, maintaining an essential service, throughout the worst of the troubles before coming to Australia in 1986. I find your reference to Unionists as having a violent streak and being nastier than the IRA most insulting! If you want to discuss Northern Ireland in relation to Brexit then please do so with some civility. Also, you need to get your facts straight regarding the vicious IRA war that they waged in the wake of the civil rights campaign. Their so-called war was completely unjustified because the civil rights demands were basically met by the early-mid 1970s. The IRA campaign had all to do with creating a united Ireland by force, against the will of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland who were British. Now, regarding Brexit, which this thread is supposed to be about, I don't think there will be a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. There is a lot to 'shake down' before Brexit is completed and at the end of the day free travel and trade will surely continue through some mutually agreed mechanisms. It is in the interests of everyone for that to happen. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Bloody Sunday was in 1972. Hard to imagine how the British Army was protecting catholics then. The IRA and Unionist terrorist organisations were as bad as each other, but I agree that the war was unjustified. I don't think the IRA ever had equal rights as their primary aim. It was always about a united Ireland (at least until the Good Friday Agreement) and pointing out the majority of NI wanted to stay in the union doesn't make much sense when a large minority were disenfranchised. I don't think the British Army ever stated their aim but it sure as hell wasn't about defending republicans from nasty unionists! Given the understandable depth of feeling in the country, I don't think it would be wise to go back to a hard border, nor would it be practical. Best bet would be to enforce a hard border between NI and GB, or to simply keep a soft border for the UK generally. A soft border would surely stop most immigration which is the point isn't it? I don't see how free travel and trade can continue. Wasn't the point of the referendum to prevent free travel? The central tenet of the EU is free trade only with free travel so what was the point of leaving it if the status quo continues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Can NI be a special case. The channel islands and isle of Mann aren't even in the EU. Gibraltar will also be complicated. A hard NI GB border sounds like the best solution, but I'm sure unionists would see that as a step towards unification. Some sort of quasi solution is needed, but I can't see it being an easy sell. Assuming brexit doesn't result in the need for visas, there will be free movement of people (tourists) anyway, they just won't be allowed to work. So that won't be an issue. For goods, they would just need to prove the point of origin, which would add to red tape, but wouldn't be the end of the world. But I don't think anyone wants a hard border with Ireland, so maybe it will work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slean Wolfhead Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 If it's a hard Brexit and no single market, they need a border and a customs point. Or how can it work? Maybe tourists walk through on a free VISA, but everything else will need to be checked, including the validity of labels on boxes, and what's inside them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Being now in my mid 70s I can remember what it was like to live and work in an independent and sovereign UK. I voted to stay out of the common market in the first place because it meant turning our backs on the Commonwealth with which we historically did so much trade. Also our trading partners around the rest of the world, to become an inward looking country within Europe. I well remember the aggravation as silly rules began to be imposed upon much of what we did by this unwieldly bureaucracy we had joined, and increased as the years passed There was the sheer wastage of food as farmers were given grants for produce far in access of what was needed within the common market. There were the so called butter mountains, wine lakes and access beef that was stored and I doubt ever used, while third world countries suffered famine. Time the UK was out of it and free once again to manage it's own affairs and trade with the rest of the world, including Australia, unhindered by red tape. I don't believe the main reason for the UK deciding to leave was mainly down to immigration and border control. Certainly this was a major factor for Brexit, perhaps even the main catalyst, but I think it has really to do with reclaiming sovereignty and therefore control of it's own affairs. Regarding the border with the Republic of Ireland, Donald Tusk, President of the European Council, has stated in an outline document, quote “We will seek flexible and creative solutions aiming at avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. It is of crucial importance to support the peace process in Northern Ireland.” unquote. This is also the stated desire of the Irish Republic and UK Governments, as well as the vast majority of people on the whole island. It is not hard to imagine how movement of goods could be controlled, without a lorry driver even being aware of it! After all, number plates are already read by cameras and fed into data systems. Technology can provide the mechanisms required and quite frankly I think a lot of the doom and gloom on this forum is unwarranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 2 hours ago, aussiederek said: It is not hard to imagine how movement of goods could be controlled, without a lorry driver even being aware of it! After all, number plates are already read by cameras and fed into data systems. Technology can provide the mechanisms required and quite frankly I think a lot of the doom and gloom on this forum is unwarranted. Not at all sure how number plate recognition can be used to manage goods moved in trucks across a border. Though it will be helpful if the UK remained in the single market of course -though this is distinctly unlikely. I always smile when people claim they want to get rid of petty EU rules but I have never met anyone who can name a single real rule they are looking forward to losing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Variety of potatoes, particularly the famous County Antrim blues :), other varieties of veggies (talk to a farmer old enough to remember), engineering drawing layouts, engineering methodologies, emission controls imposed rather than assessed and applied by the sovereign government to name a few that come to mind. Regarding border controls; it's all about data and policies. No big deal from a technological point of view. Donald Tusk and the two Governments recognise this already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 27 minutes ago, aussiederek said: Variety of potatoes, particularly the famous County Antrim blues :), other varieties of veggies (talk to a farmer old enough to remember), engineering drawing layouts, engineering methodologies, emission controls imposed rather than assessed and applied by the sovereign government to name a few that come to mind. Regarding border controls; it's all about data and policies. No big deal from a technological point of view. Donald Tusk and the two Governments recognise this already! Varieties of potatoes lol (at least you didn't mention straight bananas I suppose). Bad news but in order to trade with the EU the UK will have to retain most EU rules. Emission controls are there to aid the health and well-being of UK city-dwellers but the UK will in future have the right to determine how much the citizens should be poisoned. Presumably you are hoping that the limits will be less strict? Border control becomes more of an issue if there are trade quotas and tariffs after the split. Also an issue for people living one side of the border and working on the other, or businesses that have customers both sides of the border. They will work it all out I am sure, as they have to........but it won't be plain-sailing. And if a Scotland referendum votes to leave the UK (probably odds against) another land border to sort out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 I've been living in Australia for over 30 years now so what goes on back in the old country is purely of academic interest to me..The UK's entry into the common market was a long time ago and it's hard to remember very much. However, I do remember the much loved "Antrim Blue" variety of spud wasn't allowed to be sold in the shops because it wasn't recognised by the EU. Also technical rules began appearing all the time that had to be followed as we were dictated to by Brussels, or wherever the European parliament was. Regarding meeting EU requirements, of course that is true, but the UK will be free to trade with the wider world and not just Europe. The potential worldwide market is much larger than the EU, whose future viability is doubtful anyway. Yes, the UK will assess and decide on matters such as emissions etc., rather than having them imposed by a foreign entity. Surely it is a good thing to be in charge of your own affairs! No, it doesn't automatically mean standards will drop, but they may become more appropriate. Regarding the Irish border, there has always been a special relationship between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. Granted, it has been rocky in times past but we are in the 21st century now! The interested parties will work it out, and as I said before it will probably be based on the management of data. It's not the Berlin wall we're considering and I believe life will go on much the same as it does now. Otherwise perhaps we could ask the other Donald to build a wall .... I jest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossmoyne Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 On 31/03/2017 at 5:27 PM, newjez said: I don't understand how we can keep an open borders with NI, but still have a closed border with the EU. I'm assuming this means GB has a closed border with NI? What's to stop goods and people being shipped through NI? Just can't see how this will work. Wouldn't it be better to give NI back to the Irish? Makes sense doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossmoyne Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) On 31/03/2017 at 7:01 PM, VERYSTORMY said: It is a complex one and I suspect it will end up a closed border. It certainly isn't as easy as just giving NI back - there is nothing to give "back". Even talk of unification would stir up troubles on a big scale. You need to remember that British troops did not go into NI because of the IRA. The original reason was to protect Catholics from unionists and the violent streak of Unionists have not gone away by any stretch and many are far more violent and nastier than the IRA. A united Ireland would very quickly be in civil war. Hadn't thought of that.... it is certainly another view.... Edited April 2, 2017 by Rossmoyne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I think the border with Ireland is going to be one of the easier items to resolve. As Derek points out, all parties want to avoid a hard border. The Scottish referendum is an interesting one. You'd have to think they would vote to leave the UK at this point. If they do so prior to Britain leaving the EU then does that mean Scotland remains part of the EU, or would they have to reapply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 1 hour ago, robfromdublin said: I think the border with Ireland is going to be one of the easier items to resolve. As Derek points out, all parties want to avoid a hard border. The Scottish referendum is an interesting one. You'd have to think they would vote to leave the UK at this point. If they do so prior to Britain leaving the EU then does that mean Scotland remains part of the EU, or would they have to reapply? I think they would need to reapply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 3 hours ago, robfromdublin said: I think the border with Ireland is going to be one of the easier items to resolve. As Derek points out, all parties want to avoid a hard border. The Scottish referendum is an interesting one. You'd have to think they would vote to leave the UK at this point. If they do so prior to Britain leaving the EU then does that mean Scotland remains part of the EU, or would they have to reapply? They would have to apply and entry would be, by no means, a given. Spain are always at odds with Basque separatists who would also like a shot at independence from Spain and France. Spain see parallels with Scotland and Basques would say that if Spain accepts Scottish separation and entry to the EU then what anout Basque separation. It takes only one country to object to entry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Yes but Spain has no influence on Scottish separation from the UK. Only after Scotland is independent could they apply for membership, so the horse would have bolted at that stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I don't think Scotland will leave the UK to go it alone. That is just not a viable proposition and I think the whole idea is a beat up by Nicola Sturgeon and her supporters, manipulated by the media for their own ends .... sensationalism! Sometimes a nice idea that we might dream about is altogether different when reality is faced, and I think the notion of Scottish independence is just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 You could have written exactly that in relation to Brexit. Nobody thought the UK would shoot themselves in the foot but here we are, led by those sensationalist politicians Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson, and their sensationalist Brexit Bus. Nobody thought that was a viable proposition either. Scotland also has a low density population, an educated workforce and access to considerable renewable energy sources and oil/gas. They have a lot going for them and to dismiss an independence campaign would make the same mistake the 'remainers' did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 19 hours ago, robfromdublin said: Yes but Spain has no influence on Scottish separation from the UK. Only after Scotland is independent could they apply for membership, so the horse would have bolted at that stage. But Sturgeon would need to demonstrate that there is an unfettered path to EU membership post-separation otherwise her cause is lost. If Spain makes clear they will block Scotland then they will influence the referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Very true, but they are going out of the EU in any case. I don't think Sturgeon can demonstrate an unfettered path. It would take years and there is no guarantee it would happen. I think the result would still be on a knife edge with lots of uncertainty. It's possible that Scotland will wait to see the outcome of Brexit negotiations before holding a referendum. That would be the smart approach because then the situation of being out of the EU will become clear to the electorate. People can then make their own decision about whether life in the EU would be better. Looks like Spain would not necessarily veto, but they could of course change their mind: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beffers Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 On 03/04/2017 at 4:47 AM, Gbye grey sky said: They would have to apply and entry would be, by no means, a given. Spain are always at odds with Basque separatists who would also like a shot at independence from Spain and France. Spain see parallels with Scotland and Basques would say that if Spain accepts Scottish separation and entry to the EU then what anout Basque separation. It takes only one country to object to entry. I currently live in NI and emigrating to Melbourne this year. I can see a harder border between NI and GB as a more probable example. The DUP voted to Leave and so you would think they would've understood that this has implications for borders within the UK. The Scottish example is interesting. There's a lot of media interest in Spain very interested in this issue, not so much for the Basques, but more for Catalunya. This fiercely independent region (where I used to live many moons ago) contributed something like 80% towards Spain's industrial and manufacturing outputs. Their language is already recognised as an EU language separate from Castellano, and they watch the Scottish referendum with great interest. Because of the threat of losing Catalunya, Spain is already stating that it will oppose any Scottish separation movement. It's all in the Spanish media at the moment. Back to NI, an Administration would be helpful to negotiate Brexit at the moment!!! Think Brokenshire is giving them until Easter!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 What about Gibraltar? Won't that be the same as Northern Ireland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiederek Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) On 01/04/2017 at 6:40 AM, newjez said: Can NI be a special case. The channel islands and isle of Mann aren't even in the EU. Gibraltar will also be complicated. A hard NI GB border sounds like the best solution, but I'm sure unionists would see that as a step towards unification. Some sort of quasi solution is needed, but I can't see it being an easy sell. Assuming brexit doesn't result in the need for visas, there will be free movement of people (tourists) anyway, they just won't be allowed to work. So that won't be an issue. For goods, they would just need to prove the point of origin, which would add to red tape, but wouldn't be the end of the world. But I don't think anyone wants a hard border with Ireland, so maybe it will work out. How would a hard border look like a step towards unification with the Republic of Ireland? I would have thought quite the opposite. Edited April 5, 2017 by aussiederek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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