barn28 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 No problem, I'll do some investigation next week. Also looking into common law for advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Makes you wonder why so many POMS complain about Australian driving standards! Maybe a lot of these so called bad drivers arent Australians after all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Pom Queen Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Let's remember not to get personal :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 safety, and speed or red light cameras are not exclusive. there should be a sign on the intersection highlighting how it is one of the most dangerous in the state. many safe drivers may occasionally speed and almost go thru red. it's been shown on typical red light camera intersections t-bone crashes have reduced by less than 20% but arse ending has gone up by almost 22% * so lets not go all holier than thou, these things are piggy banks plain and simple. the victoria plod should try pulling over some of those clowns who hog the middle or fast lane and fine them, or maybe cars with exhausts louder than 96db, meh list goes on! * http://time.com/3643077/red-light-cams-rear-end-collisions-chicago/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I'm in the same boat as Alex. I received a letter informing me that I've been disqualified. First of all, I agree it's fair to have a consistent law. I also appreciate I need to have more care on the road. Majority of my points were for going through red light/0-10km above limit speeding. It was mostly concentrated around 2013 with no offences the last 8 months. From everything I've read I don't think there's an avenue for appeal unless challenging any of the specific points/penalties. So we may just need to suck it up and take the hit. It'll make life a challenge with a child, a job where a car is important etc. The retrospective element is frustrating but what can you do? It looks pretty much black and white. Taking away my personal frustration, i totally understand why this is coming into effect. Alex, I will make some calls on Monday. Let me know how you get on if you speak to a solicitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 On a different note, I got my PR last week. (Hooray). So I need to transition to a Vic license within 3 months. How does this work now I am disqualified with my UK license? i assume the 3 month restriction isn't strict as long as I am not driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 On a different note, I got my PR last week. (Hooray). So I need to transition to a Vic license within 3 months. How does this work now I am disqualified with my UK license? i assume the 3 month restriction isn't strict as long as I am not driving. Congrats on the PR. I think it's 6 not 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 And from what the text says you cannot transfer until after the disqualification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 On a different note, I got my PR last week. (Hooray). So I need to transition to a Vic license within 3 months. How does this work now I am disqualified with my UK license? i assume the 3 month restriction isn't strict as long as I am not driving. From the link above "overseas licence holders who incur or have incurred demerit points above the permitted limit will be disqualified from driving in Victoria and from obtaining a Victorian driver licence or learner permit for a period of time." I would say that until the suspension on driving on your UK licence is lifted, you do not have a valid licence to exchange for a Aussie one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn28 Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 My concern is how a law can be applied retrospectively and hold force. I know that VicRoads are a governing body, however I believe this contradicts common law and will be seeking legal advice. I found this and think it holds water: https://www.alrc.gov.au/sites/default/files/pdfs/publications/ip46_ch_7._retrospective_laws.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 My concern is how a law can be applied retrospectively and hold force. I know that VicRoads are a governing body, however I believe this contradicts common law and will be seeking legal advice. I found this and think it holds water: https://www.alrc.gov.au/sites/default/files/pdfs/publications/ip46_ch_7._retrospective_laws.pdf I think the legal technicality of it this will already have been explored before bringing this into force. Closing a loophole is not the same as changing a law. We have been exploiting a loophole to avoid the calculation of demerit points - but 12 demerits = disqualification regardless of the license, they have just implemented a system for calulating it. It's certainly worth the question though. Driving fines and in particular driving suspensions have always been heavily contested in court because of the effect on some people's livelihoods or whatever, so I would expect to see this used as a point of defense in lots of cases, so I guess we'll see. In my case it looks very clean cut and fair, so I am just going to serve a suspension if I get one. It's more of an inconvenience to me than anything else though because I live and work in inner Melbourne. Could someone please scan and upload the front and back of their notice? Redact any personal and unique information first of course. I would like to see what appeal options are pointed out on the notice, and whether there's an option of a magistrate's review. From what Vicroads just told me, you can request a review for an individual offense but not for the disqualification based on aggregation of demerits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I agree that retrospectively is poor form in legislation. However, VicRoads would argue that the demerit points were incurred under long-standing legislation and that the same long-standing legislation doles out suspensions for people who incur 12 demerit points within a specific time period. They would argue that until 1 July, drivers on foreign licences were simply not serving the suspensions that the law had prescribed - therefore what is happening now is an enforcement change rather than a change in the law at the time of the offence. It's a bit like people not buying rail tickets because they know that the fines will never be enforced. Then, out of the blue, fines start to be enforced with seizure of assets, attachment of earnings, community service or imprisonment. Would it be a good defence for someone who has a stack of unpaid fines to say - ah, but at the time of the offences, I knew the penalties would not be enforced and by now enforcing the penalty, the change is effectively retrospective? Also, in the case of the OP, this is not someone who has simply got to 12 points - this is someone who has continued with bad driving and got to 15 points - three beyond when a suspension should have occurred. And if these offences had happened in the UK where the licence is from, each speeding and red light offence would have got 3 points staying on the record for 4 years; with the licence suspended at 12 points. These 15 Australian points would have been many more in Britain. Claiming that "Oh, I didn't think that part of the law applied to me because I am from overseas" is not going to play well with anyone. The OP would be well advised to suck it up and avoid any appearance of whinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Claiming that "Oh, I didn't think that part of the law applied to me because I am from overseas" is not going to play well with anyone. The OP would be well advised to suck it up and avoid any appearance of whinging. Heh - pretty brutal Quinkla, but probably fair enough [emoji1] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Just to sidetrack a bit but I really, really wish they would fine the truck drivers who tailgate all the time. I was behind one the other day and he was practically in the back seat of the car in front who just had nowhere to go. Eventually the driver was able to change lanes and blow me down if the truckie didn't start on the next motorist in the queue. I would have reported him except his number plate was illegible- no doubt deliberately! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Any updates from your solicitor Alex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn28 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 I've spoken to 2 separate solicitors. One was free legal advice line, the other a friend of a friend. In both cases it's seems that foreign drivers simply have no rights and banning by individual states on aggregate demerit points can be handled any why they wish at any time as long as they were recorded correctly. I could potentially challenge how the law has been written on this new approach and applied, however the cost / time / effort didn't weigh up. It would be long past 3 months before I got in court. Given that I'm 2 weeks in and go away in 8 for a month, I'll just need to hang tight and drive carefully the other end. 4 points get lifted within the next 5 months and a total of 7 points within a year. I'll convert my license to an Aussie one when I'm clear of the suspension, hopefully they won't all transfer. Annoying but not unrecoverable, I can work to work and my partner drives. I hope others fair well in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 ...it's seems that foreign drivers simply have no rights and banning by individual states on aggregate demerit points can be handled any why they wish at any time as long as they were recorded correctly... I think that's disingenuous. You broke the law repeatedly and simply decided that one aspect of the penalties you received (in line with the law) would not apply to you because you were not local, even though it would apply to everyone else. That loophole has been closed and that part of the penalty will now apply to you, just as it does to everyone else. Seeking to evade justice by being foreign is not a good look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn28 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think that's disingenuous. You broke the law repeatedly and simply decided that one aspect of the penalties you received (in line with the law) would not apply to you because you were not local, even though it would apply to everyone else. That loophole has been closed and that part of the penalty will now apply to you, just as it does to everyone else. Seeking to evade justice by being foreign is not a good look. Not at all. If I was seeking to evade, I would not adhere to the laws placed upon me which I have through the penalties valid at the time. These have changed, which is what this thread is about, informing others rather than selfishly keeping the information to myself. Your post makes you sound aggressive and argumentative. If you can't add actual value rather than another 'I told you so', maybe don't say anything at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Your idea is nuts. Firstly - your argument that international drivers have no rights doesn't hold water because an aussie driver would have been disqualified just the same, except earlier. Secondly, since your claim would be challenging a complex / new / politicial issue - the small claims courts track will pass it up the chain as it would have the possibility to set precedent and a slew of other claims will follow. In that case your exposure to costs will be huge if (when) you lose because they will defend it rigorously. Thirdly, speaking to a free advice line and a mate shows that you're out of your depth and are just scrambing. Just accept it and leave it. Same as I had to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The only possible way I can see that this is unfair is that local drivers have the option of a good behaviour bond whereas an international driver under these circumstances does not. But since that offer expires in 30 days, even that argument is pretty weak. We got away with it for a while, but they've closed the loophole and we have to suck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn28 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) The point you make on the bond as well as the fact the suspension was supplied with no warning (usually 28 days) was what I was referring to as rights. It's not 'weak' but correct. I not disputing having to suck it up, I just wanted to inform others of where I was, as requested. I made a decision to join the forum to find out where others were with he same issue but ended up posting myself to start the discussion to contribute (key word here). I must say I've been suprised at the tone of contribution. Negative jibes to honest question for advice, taking multiple blows at my honesty and calling me out like some kind of criminal which is not the case. These are minor traffic offences which everyone receives, so get off your high horses. For a forum dedicated to helping British people in Australia, it seems some of my own nationals have a limitation on seeing things from my perspective and cannot stop themselves from cruel character assassination of someone they don't even know. Makes me realise why I left the UK and why I'll remove my account from the forum due to the low quality of support and aggressive temperament of some members. 'This is the bit where everyone chimes in right?!' Edited July 27, 2015 by barn28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The point you make on the bond as well as the fact the suspension was supplied with no warning (usually 28 days) was what I was referring to as rights. Oh right. Did you not know that 12 points = disqualification? Or was it just that you thought being on a foreign licence meant you could dodge the full weight of the law? I must say I've been suprised at the tone of contribution. Negative jibes to honest question for advice, taking multiple blows at my honesty and calling me out like some kind of criminal which is not the case. You are a criminal. You have broken the law on multiple occasions. These are minor traffic offences which everyone receives, so get off your high horses. Whether it is major or minor is a matter of personal opinion. The law and the courts prescribe penalties. They obviously think these are more major offences than you because you are bleating about the punishments they dish out. For a forum dedicated to helping British people in Australia, it seems some of my own nationals have a limitation on seeing things from my perspective Damn right Makes me realise why I left the UK and why I'll remove my account from the forum due to the low quality of support and aggressive temperament of some members. Bye. Good riddance to bad rubbish. If you don't want the penalties, don't break the law. Don't merrily break the law and assume you'll get away with it by being foreign. I have way more sympathy for people who are disappointed but accept with good grace. 'This is the bit where everyone chimes in right?!' Happy walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn28 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) What a hateful person. Do you just wonder around the forum preying on people, sitting at the computer hitting refresh waiting for an opportunity to voice your opinion like a proper keyboard warrior? Actually, I'm not a criminal. Traffic offences are civic compliance, I do not have a criminal record no will I in the matter of weeks I'll wait. Get your facts straight. Edited July 27, 2015 by barn28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatpack Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Not sure if this has been mentioned as I haven't read every post but I was told by a police officer (it still might be wrong) that you can only drive for 12 months on a foreign licence and if you here longer then you HAVE to apply for an Aussie license OR stop driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adaminoz Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Not sure if this has been mentioned as I haven't read every post but I was told by a police officer (it still might be wrong) that you can only drive for 12 months on a foreign licence and if you here longer then you HAVE to apply for an Aussie license OR stop driving. 6 months after getting a permanent visa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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