flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think when people end up in your waters then you have a responsibility to assess their status as quickly and humanely as possible. The problem with the camps, quite apart from issues around living conditions, is the apparent inertia around the processing and resettlement of applicants. The numbers of people held in them has been growing and this then poses issues for eventual resettlement. I'm not sure there is a diplomatic answer to the problem as those arriving by boat appear to be coming from a spread of countries, so it really boils down to the practicalities of finding a speedy and humane way to identify whether applicants are genuinely fleeing oppression in their countries of origin. In my view this could be executed safely on Australian soil and would not cost any more than the bung that Rudd is paying the PNG government. I fear that using PNG as effectively a holding cell for those arrivals will simply mean sweeping the problem out of sight. That may well prove to be an election winner for Labor, but it places vulnerable people, many of whom will be genuine asylum-seekers, at risk of abuse in a country with a lamentable human rights record. Out of the frying pan and into the fire as it were. Very true. Mean spirited of Rudd to say the least. It would have been far better to come to an arrangement with Indonesia, if anybody in agreeing to take a set number a year from that country and then a queue could be implemented. It is not an easy problem to find a solution but the PNG option was politicking at its worst by Australia. Interesting show on Dateline last night on the Manus Island detainees. The abuse that was going on under the noises of the Australian administrators who were unable to do anything and DIMA who refused to act on the sexual abuse of young men and stand over tactics by toughs among the detainees. Shocking example of what goes on in Australian managed detention centres overseas. Presents this nation in a very poor light. The whistle blower had never seen such extreme behaviour in his history of working in mainland prisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 For all those happy about the boats coming in greater and greater numbers. One has sunk this morning, at least 60 feared dead. This is one of the tragic consequences of soft policies. More and more drownings. A tough deterrent is needed to deter people from boarding boats. Of course people from Afghanistan, Iran, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would love to live in Australia. I get that. But we can't allow it any longer. It must be stopped. Again shows the desperation of people and the risks they will take to escape fear and persecution. The camps people are left to fester in often with no chance of settlement, being a lottery, are even in many cases more dangerous than attempting the sea crossings to Europe or Australia. Being hot beds of crime, rape, disease and hopelessness. Australia has a legal commitment to allow asylum seekers apply for refuge while remaining in the treaty. If the conditions in camps were improved to a level of decency and some hope was restored perhaps more would remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 But a lot less chance of dying if they had stayed where they were, otherwise they wouldn't have been fleeing in the first place if they are really refugees. I saw Q&A last night. Don't usually watch it as the inane tweets continuously coming in put me off. They put a panel of intelligent experts on and then have Joe Bloggs opinions on whatever splashed all over the screen. Last night the tweets were coming thick and fast and there was one from an Australian lady with a PNG husband. Basically he was disgusted about the way the conversation had gone about PNG and she said something like tell us what you really think about PNG. I don't get your point in, They wouldn't be fleeing if they were really refugees? As the majority have clearly been shown to be refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Again shows the desperation of people and the risks they will take to escape fear and persecution. The camps people are left to fester in often with no chance of settlement, being a lottery, are even in many cases more dangerous than attempting the sea crossings to Europe or Australia. Being hot beds of crime, rape, disease and hopelessness. Australia has a legal commitment to allow asylum seekers apply for refuge while remaining in the treaty. If the conditions in camps were improved to a level of decency and some hope was restored perhaps more would remain. No it just shows they would love to live in Australia. And they know they wouldn't get in via the normal channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 hopefully this will make them think twice before jumping on a boat now .. It's not such a nice thought for them going to Png as it is Australia. In return it might save their lives as well as their children's. i have a close friend, works here in in gang intervention. Working in the jails and with local authorities to work with young gang members and troubled criminals. He has been to La, London, france , Brazil working with the worst of the worst and trying to find solutions on helping the local authorities to make sure things can stay under control here in oz. Parts of London a very bad. No go zones for most average people. They flew in Americans to try and help a few years ago there, ex gang members were trying to help with the problems. La is getting better , and sadly parts of Australia are getting worse. Sydney gangs are becoming a big problem. Middle eastern descent gangs that should not be here. They dislike everything about the country , yet they have found their way here. Some illegally. Everything in this county needs to be tightened including stopping boats coming in. I think australians look at the big picture and don't want this countries cities turning into a gang zones and people settling here that don't respect the Australian way of life. It's seen time and time again they are coming for handouts and to exploiting the country. Years ago our bikie gangs were australian descent , now they have a big middle eastern presence. They don't want boat people coming here and rioting in detention , which they do constantly because they are not getting there own way. The minority of these boat people with the wrong attitudes made it hard for the genuine refugees to be seen by the public as people just wanting a good chance at a new life. Sadly I think the average person just labels them as trouble now. I do feel for genuine refugees and think everybody deserves a chance, but everybody also has to be monitored and criminals cannot slip through the fence as easy. Its seen on tv , some of these so called refugees on the boats wearing gold chains and having nice rings on there fingers. Rioting in detention , they want ciggies and good treatment. That's what's wrong and why I think majority of Australia will back Rudd on it. Shame cause I don't want to see him in power, but he has made a good call in my opinion. Something has to deter them. This might help. So it's not Rudd's claim to be saving lives and putting the people smugglers out of business but the old chestnut race. Thanks for clearing that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 No it just shows they would love to live in Australia. And they know they wouldn't get in via the normal channels. What are the normal channels? So what about the queues then? Your right most wouldn't get anywhere to any country without using some initiative. Regardless of their need for refuge. Those that are faking it should be returned. Those at risk deserve a fair hearing and humane treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 You are correct, they have as much chance dying there as on the trip looking at the murder rate in that country. PNG is an unsafe country. The Australian Government's travel warning advices Australian citizens thinking of going there as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Very true. Mean spirited of Rudd to say the least. It would have been far better to come to an arrangement with Indonesia, if anybody in agreeing to take a set number a year from that country and then a queue could be implemented.It is not an easy problem to find a solution but the PNG option was politicking at its worst by Australia. Interesting show on Dateline last night on the Manus Island detainees. The abuse that was going on under the noises of the Australian administrators who were unable to do anything and DIMA who refused to act on the sexual abuse of young men and stand over tactics by toughs among the detainees. Shocking example of what goes on in Australian managed detention centres overseas. Presents this nation in a very poor light. The whistle blower had never seen such extreme behaviour in his history of working in mainland prisons. They can't even control some of these people when they have trained "administrators" what chance would they have if they were in the community. Do we really want a repeat like the guys in England grooming and abusing white girls by the hundred. The authorities have been trying to get more of the perpetrators jailed as they know there are hundreds involved, up to this point I think they have managed about 5 jail terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted July 27, 2013 Author Share Posted July 27, 2013 For all those happy about the boats coming in greater and greater numbers. One has sunk this morning, at least 60 feared dead. This is one of the tragic consequences of soft policies. More and more drownings. A tough deterrent is needed to deter people from boarding boats. Of course people from Afghanistan, Iran, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would love to live in Australia. I get that. But we can't allow it any longer. It must be stopped. Why can't oz take its fair share though instead of pushing it on to a poor country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest66881 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Why can't oz take its fair share though instead of pushing it on to a poor country. Said the bloke from England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Knows a lot about nothing and nothing about a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted July 27, 2013 Author Share Posted July 27, 2013 Said the bloke from England. Said the bloke who is not selfish and has great empathy for others less fortunate.....so many selfish people in this world that are just....well, I'm alright jack....sod the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted July 27, 2013 Author Share Posted July 27, 2013 Knows a lot about nothing and nothing about a lot Paul or deb? Or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Why can't oz take its fair share though instead of pushing it on to a poor country. Per capita and per dollars of GDP Australia resettles (on a permanent basis) more refugees than any other country except Canada. That's 15 x more per capita and 13 x more per $GDP than the UK. If you are so worried about taking a "fair share"...go and talk to your own politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 They can't even control some of these people when they have trained "administrators" what chance would they have if they were in the community. Do we really want a repeat like the guys in England grooming and abusing white girls by the hundred. The authorities have been trying to get more of the perpetrators jailed as they know there are hundreds involved, up to this point I think they have managed about 5 jail terms. Or how about being totally radical and appointing people who can manage. A pretty tall order I realise in Australia, but even a 457 in this instance may fit the bill. If anyone would be fool enough to apply. Anyone that doubts there will not be a few bad apples in the bunch isn't living in reality. No excuses for those running the show. Your second point should take into account those that transgressed have been rightly charged. Some Asian men thing white girls are easy prey. Many white men going to Cambodia do like wise to Asian children. Not a few but many. The prison over there has a number those that usually can't bribe their way out. No one can hold the high moral ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 The whole thing is all about the election of course. Their research shows most Australians want the boat problem solved- and I am cynical enough to think it isn't a humanitarian stance. Personally I think they should all be shipped off to the UK where they will meet with a good response and made welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Personally I think they should all be shipped off to the UK where they will meet with a good response and made welcome. ..................and loads of benefits to send home to all the kids waiting at home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) Per capita and per dollars of GDP Australia resettles (on a permanent basis) more refugees than any other country except Canada. That's 15 x more per capita and 13 x more per $GDP than the UK. If you are so worried about taking a "fair share"...go and talk to your own politicians. Oh dear Skani, you can't bring facts and figures into his threads, especially not ones that may be genuine Edited July 27, 2013 by wakeboard1980 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolbox Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Per capita and per dollars of GDP Australia resettles (on a permanent basis) more refugees than any other country except Canada. That's 15 x more per capita and 13 x more per $GDP than the UK. If you are so worried about taking a "fair share"...go and talk to your own politicians. Or maybe if these caring souls are so concerned they could give up their spare room or atleast donate some time and money to help maybe:daydreaming: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Or maybe if these caring souls are so concerned they could give up their spare room or atleast donate some time and money to help maybe:daydreaming: I suggested something similar when he had 2 jobs and was saying his mates couldn't find at job. Wasn't willing to help his mates then, can't see him helping a stranger now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ptp113 Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Australia likes it as Labor are now equal to the Noalition on a two party preferred basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flathead Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Oh dear Skani, you can't bring facts and figures into his threads, especially not ones that may be genuine 'MAY' being the operative word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Per capita and per dollars of GDP Australia resettles (on a permanent basis) more refugees than any other country except Canada. That's 15 x more per capita and 13 x more per $GDP than the UK. If you are so worried about taking a "fair share"...go and talk to your own politicians. As I have stated while Australia ranks highly in the intake of those selective as refugees, those numbers pale when asylums seekers are included in the number crunching. While countries like Malta for example do not take refugees they on a population and economic basis they receive many more asylum seekers who go onto stay. The same applies to many countries. Hence Australia is not high up in total intake when asylum seekers are factored in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Why on earth would any country accept asylum seekers if they are not genuine refugees ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 'MAY' being the operative word United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees - annual statistical publications: Total number refugees resettled 1993 - 2012: Australia - 211,240 UK - 5,813 Refugee resettlement 2012: Australia - 5, 937 0.267 per 1000 population 6.18 per $b GDP UK - 1,039 0.017 per 1000 population 0.45 per $b GDP I only mentioned it because PB (in the UK) accused Oz of not doing its "fair share". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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