whopperdaisy

There was a high profile story here in QLD of someone who returned here from Italy with her kids and the children were forcibly put on a plane to Italy (teenage children literally kicking and screaming to try and stay with their mum). If you stayed on holiday, and your ex made a complaint to police, the children would be repatriated from any country signatory to the Hague Convention. If you returned you would almost certainly face charges if the other parent pursued it. You also have to get permission for the holiday in the first place form the other parent, or else apply for permission through the courts if that is not forthcoming.

Yep, my TAFE couse is being finished so my study will not lead to the planned qualification. I'm still trying to figure out what comes next. A lot of contact orders now do not allow for full time 9-5 type work as you have to be in a certain place at a certain time to transition your child - during the working day. More encouragement to employers to offer flexible work practices (and part time jobs that are not just entry level or menial) would help. Judges recognising that parents may want to work a regular job may also help. I am fortunate to have a skill that can potentially lead to self employment, setting my own hours to some extent. When it comes to it, nobody thinks their relationship will be one of the statistics when things are going well but things change. The heartbreak of a failed relationship is a minor part of the story when you end up stranded and unable to visit your family. If you choose to migrate, at least be aware of that possibility.

How about a group for people who are self-employed or running their own business? There's a lot specific to those topics (although I can't claim to know many answers).

The original link has expired but another article about the story is here. The girls and their mother left Italy after what they (including the girls) describe as considerable abuse from the father. One of the girls described him breaking one of her thumbs in a rage. The girls say they are settled and happy in Australia and don't want to leave. There have been many court hearings and at on point a relative went on the run with the girls. The papers last reported that the father has given up and gone back to Italy although I suspect that is unlikely. They argue that he gave permission for them to come to Australia, he says only for a holiday. This has dragged on for quite some time and the girls' family has gone to extraordinary lengths to try to stay here. The girls had a court case claiming they should be afforded the right to be heard in court; they lost that case. Had they won, it could have had enormous ramifications for future legal hearings. I have mixed feelings about it in that it may add to pressure on children, not all of whom are equipped to express their feelings in a daunting situation. Children's feelings should be considered but the possibility of them being pressured and manipulated by one or both parents would be a problem. On the other hand I know only too well the heartbreak of having a child pleading with you not to send them to their other parent only to have to make them go, no matter how scared or unhappy they seem. There are probably plenty of sensible decisions made by courts that we don't hear about but I certainly know of many erratic, strange or downright scary orders made by judges here and some of those I have watched in action seem lacking much sanity (maybe that is what the job does to them?) - I have heard more than one lawyer describe family court as a crap shoot. I'd say it is worse than that. Before I harp on any more - I'll say that anyone with doubts about a relationship before coming here should think very carefully - going through court appearances over years without family support close by is very hard indeed. If you can work on things and get to a better place for a while before leaving, it may reap rewards in more ways than one. Simply moving here, while rewarding ultimately for some, is not easy and to do that on fragile foundations would have a lower chance of success. Stepping away from the pulpit now...

That was unforgettable, our queen is a great sport for taking part that way and I am especially impressed by all those doctors and nurses (almost all apparently actually work for the NHS). Its a long time since I shed so many tears and they were happy ones.

Pintpot, I think you're absolutely right on the legality of any agreement and certainly wouldn't say it safeguards anything. That said, it is probably not a wasted exercise if it prompts parents to at least consider the potential repercussions of a move. Marriage breakdowns are of course not so easy to predict but if a relationship feels rocky, it would be prudent to think very carefully about moving away from support networks. Some of the hard facts about what happens... aside from being stuck somewhere you may not wish to live til your children are adults... if, say, a family member in the UK is hospitalised, you can't rush to their side. You can't just take a holiday to visit loved ones unless your ex agrees to it. If your parents are elderly and unable to travel here, you can't just go and visit (unless you're OK with leaving your kids behind). You might not see them again. You need to consider before moving (whether to Australia or the UK) if you can accept these things. For some people the move can work out great, for some terrible - better to at least be prompted to consider the risks. My mum won't be able to make the journey here again. I haven't broken that news to my child yet but had to wipe little one's tears this week because Grandma is missed so much. I hate that I put my child in this situation. So, forgive me if I am whining a bit here - sometimes venting helps me put back on my happy Mummy face before doing the kindy run. I wouldn't say to people not to move so much as to just be very aware of what they are taking on and avoid some of the shocks.

Grr, internet went off when I tried to post and I lost what I wrote... anyway, SBS TV are looking for people to interview who left Australia with their children without the permission of the other parent. The info I have (I am not connected with SBS at all): If you can't watch the show when broadcast, I think SBS put a lot of their shows online. Maybe interesting viewing for anyone with children.

One thing people should also consider.... it may not be just that you can't relocate completely back to the UK... you may also not be able to even go back for visits unless you either leave your children behind or else pay to go through court to ask permission for a holiday - and there is no guarantee it will be granted. Unfortunately there are parents who will continue to use their bit of 'power' in this way, no matter how much a child may wish to see grandparents etc. It may sound obvious but, if you have concerns about your relationship in the UK, don't expect moving to Australia to make things better.

Almost never, even if that abuse is in front of the child, well documented and proven and it seems even if the child has experienced abuse there is usually still priority given to maintaining that relationship. Generally it seems that adherence is quite rigid with very little consideration for such circumstances. I would urge anyone thinking of coming to Aus who believes their spouse is or may be abusive to reconsider. Legal aspects aside, the value of having a support network is immeasurable.

Probably a question for a qualified legal adviser, Helen. I would think that their father would have some claim as their remaining parent. Your husband could probably apply for custody but I don't know which way the courts here would go.

I wonder what the background story is behind this, what caused her to leave in the first place. Either way, it seems sad for the child to have a parent jailed.

I was advised by a solicitor that it is better to get written permission, ideally in the form of a stat dec, just in case immigration in another country en route is having a crackdown or gets a bit over-enthusiastic. I didn't ever have to use the permission (this was while I was with my child's father) but better safe than sorry. A stat dec is easy to do - you can get the form from most newsagencies and sign it in front of a JP.

Another thing to consider very carefully for anyone going through this... if you do apply for relocation, there are many judges here who may consider that means you do not support the child's relationship with the other parent, which they may count as reason to award far more custody to the other parent than they may otherwise do. So there are risks associated with even applying.

I think that is reasonable where the person in question is a decent parent and it involves taking them away from their home country. When that is not the case, when, one parent just can't settle overseas and is suffering or where one parent is abusive, it becomes horribly complicated and there's no neat or perfect answer is there? The Hague Convention has very worthy aims but it has significant flaws that cause untold heartbreak.

I would thinnk it very doubtful that an agreement signed before you even arrive here based on a what-if scenario would be very had to enforce, it would at best serve to be an agreement between the two of you to be honoured based on your own integrity. How much that's worth depends on the two of you probably (and if you're making such serious efforts then that may be enough, where it isn't for many). In terms of Veryhopeful's story, lets hope there's a happy ending and she doesn't feel the desire to go home before her ex does. I can't speculate too much based on the brief details given but I will say that I believe that a parent who conducts ongoing long-term abuse towards the other parent is unlikely to be a good influence. The child(ren) can be immeasurably harmed if they witness this abuse of their parent so it does damage the children even if not directed at them. I think there is a certain amount of difference between the habitual abuser and the person who blows up under extreme pressure of separation and court (not that its OK). I don't know which of these applies in veryhopeful's case but tapping phone calls etc sounds pretty extreme. In theory orders should be made that protect the parent's safety as well as the children but I know from personal experience this is not always the case.

You're right and that's a big part of what makes it so tough. I do think even in the abstract it is good that you have opened that conversation. A lot perhaps depends on the age of the child and maybe there are other measures to consider, like committing to making holidays to the UK a priority above other non-essential expenditures. I think that being forced to be here would be a whole lot more bearable if that were an option for me, so maybe that would be a start. I think in any case having a supportive other parent who is understanding of the desire to go back to the UK would be worth a lot, even if there isn't agreement. Or maybe some agreement to spend an amount of years in each country, but depending on your son's interests.

I agree exactly... any benefits (and of course there are benefits of living in either country) can be lost if you feel isolated without family support when you become a single parent. I think that sometimes courts in their indecision leave children in a worst of both worlds situation. I will say that I don't think their job is easy in making these decisions but sometimes the child's best interests seem to get lost among the red tape. It is very hard to weigh up which things have most value and this is something that can't neatly fit in the court's framework because it doesn't allow for every parent and child being different. Is having a very negative effect by making a custodial parent stay in a country they don't feel settled or supported outweighed by having time with the other parent all the time? What if that parent is for example abusive or a drug user or has personality issues or even (less extreme but quite common) does not have the motivation to really make that relationship a strong one. Does that outweigh having involved and loving extended family. In some cases the answer may be yes and in some no but courts don't really deal well with those grey areas. I'm waffling a bit. Good on you and your wife, Neil, for at least opening the discussion. I hope you'll be able to go back to it again at some point when you've both reflected more. I think it is brave of you to consider your child may be better with his other parent and that statement in itself shows your love. My personal opinion is that most times the child benefits from a well-supported custodial parent more than the debatable opportunities of living in Australia. I'll admit a lot of bias though :cute: