George Lombard Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Many 457 changes have been announced today, including a generous extension allowing up to 12 months leave without pay. Too much to summarise, see Agents Gateway . Cheers, George Lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WavyDavy Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I know George said too much to summarise, but could someone smarter than I am post a brief summary of the changes, please? All those documents are making my head spin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Lombard Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Davy, I keep on talking to people in the Department today who are also suffering from information overload. Best to address specific questions rather than asking for a summary, but the overall mechanism is drawing heavily on Australia's workplace relations machinery which means that there will be far less scope for sharp business practices. Cheers, George Lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaust Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 [/url]Minister for Immigration and Citizenship. A key provision in the new laws will enable the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) to disclose information to the Department of Immigration and Citizenship in order to ensure correct salary levels are being paid to visa holders. The laws will require that all new workers on subclass 457 visas must be paid market salary rates from today. New worker protection laws will allow tax checks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest proud2beaussie Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 The IMMI website has several links and as George says it is probably a lot of information to "digest" at once but basically these are the main bits. 457 visa program – Integrity Reforms – 14 September 2009 From 14 September 2009 major integrity-focussed reforms to the Subclass 457 visa program will come into force. These reforms include: a new Sponsorship Obligations regime a new system for the payment of salary to Subclass 457 visa holders a stronger sanctions regime, including civil penalties new arrangements for the payment of health costs for 457 visa holders. The reforms are designed to enhance the integrity of the program and ensure the program continues to provide industry with the necessary skills while not undermining local training and employment opportunities. Detailed information on the changes and how they affect both sponsors and visa holders can be found on the website. See: Employer Obligations Employee Obligations Subclass 457 – Sponsorship Obligations Frequently Asked Questions – Sponsors Subclass 457 – Sponsorship Obligations Frequently Asked Questions – Visa Holders Subclass 457 – Health Insurance Frequently Asked Questions – Sponsors Subclass 457 – Health Insurance Frequently Asked Questions – Visa Holders Subclass 457 – market salary rates From 14 September 2009, all sponsors of Subclass 457 visa holders (457 sponsors) will be required to adhere to a new series of Sponsorship Obligations. For 457 sponsors who are standard business sponsors, the obligation to ensure equivalent terms and conditions of employment will mean that they pay market rates of pay to their overseas workers. For current Subclass 457 visa holders, transitional arrangements will apply. More information on market salary rates (including transitional arrangements) is available. See: Subclass 457 – Market Salary Rates Subclass 457 – Market Rates Frequently Asked Questions – Sponsors Subclass 457 – Market Rates Frequently Asked Questions – Visa Holders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Lombard Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi Nigel, Actually the hardest part of the changes is going to involve simple issues like how to identify a market salary. Not all that easy with managerial professions so three examples we saw today were a fitness centre manager, an IT software house business manager and a finance manager for a large catering organisation. It turns out that there are many different kinds of fitness centres along a continuum from the therapeutic to the self-enlarging, there's women's fitness centres, club and membership based places, and so on. Cheers, George Lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi George I can answer your question to Nigel. Seemingly you need to: Consult the ABS website to see whether that tells you anything Consult every recruitment agent across the relevant State Investigate whether there are any pay awards in the relevant sector Ask the relevant Union (if there is one) whether they have any data on current market salaries, possibly? Interrogate the employer about the pay of all the employees of the company Ask the Aussie Tax Office Ask anyone else whom I haven't suggested above but who might have a clue You will be none the wiser once you have consulted Uncle Tom Cobley & All but you ought to be sure of promotion based on your diligence, anyway. The visa applicant might die of old age whilst you investigate (or you might) but some collateral damage is acceptable to the Minister, I imagine. I suspect that they have rushed this requirement onto the statute book without having the faintest idea how to implement it or whether it can be implemented in any way that would not fall apart at the seams once a sceptical Judge takes a good look at the 'research' conducted..... I believe that a situation such as this is often described as a SNAFU. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi George I've been puzzling about the unpaid year off. Is that aimed at something like maternity/paternity leave or is it a device to enable Aussie employers to lay a worker off "temporarily" until there is more work around, please? Or does it cover both possibilities and perhaps more besides? I am wondering why they have introduced this notion? Does it mean that a worker who has been laid off "temporarily" can wander around Oz for a year, still on his original 457 visa, and just work for anyone who is prepared to hire him for the time being? Thanks :notworthy: Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Lombard Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi Gill, It's probably going to assist people about to be laid off, particularly in seasonal industries or industries affected by a sudden downturn who will want to re-tool quickly when conditions change; yes, maternity leave is another obvious application. Cheers, George Lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzy27 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 My husband Is a panel beater. The sponsorship has been approved & she wants 2 see a work contract to approve the nomination. Now, with all these changes I'm now confused at what my hubbys pay shud be LOL on the ema she sent, she said he Had to be paid a base of $45220. Is that still a correct figure. Panel beaters wages can vary from shop to shop. I just don't want 2 get that wrong. Also, in light of these new changes, is she likely to request any more info regarding the nomination App?? Thank you in advance :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Lombard Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi Lizzy, I'd suggest you contact Sydney based registered migration agent Adrian Carlson about market salaries for panel beaters, I think he signed up here last week or you could visit his website Autopersonnel Australia - Welcome to the Autopersonnel Australia . Cheers, George Lombard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest timnlinds Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hi, We've suddenly been told that we have to provide proof of medical insurance for 12 months. We have posted our 457 application but didn't know about the new ruling that happened on the 14th September. Will the recipricol UK medicare health work? My wife is a nurse and she is getting a 457 to work in the Melbourne Women's hospital and we have two children. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzy27 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hi, the reciprocal Medicare card will suffice, that's what the immi website says :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest timnlinds Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks Izzy. I'll give medicare a call in the night to see what we have to do to apply. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratchet Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks Izzy. I'll give medicare a call in the night to see what we have to do to apply. Tim All very easy to sort when you arrive.medicare places all over. U just need to fill out a form, which is no doubt online and take it in with passports and visa's. when we did it last week we were told that we would have numbers by the middle of this week but immi take a while to send through details so we would have to wait for our official cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks Izzy. I'll give medicare a call in the night to see what we have to do to apply. Tim Visitors to Australia - Medicare Australia Hi Tim Welcome to Poms in Oz. The link above may help. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HayleynLorna Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hi, the reciprocal Medicare card will suffice, that's what the immi website says :-) Hi there. Just as we were expecting our 457 to be finalised this change from the 14th has popped up. Interesting one this as the advice on the immi website says that for applicants from countries that benefit from the reciprocal healthcare scheme our entitlement to medicare meets this minimum requriement. However, if you're outside Australia you can't apply for medicare... so you need confirmation of cover in order to obtain the visa. The advice that I've been given is that this situation is currently being looked at! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest timnlinds Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks for all those responses. Doesn't sound like it is very well thought through. I'm not sure how you would apply for health insurance anyway when you can't give a start date because you don't know if your visa is going to be accepted....... I'll give medicare a call later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jolaaled Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I'm in a similar position, in that I need health cover for my 457 application. I phoned medicare yesterday to see if it's possible to get enrolled prior to entry into Aus. They said it isn't, and that that have been talking to DIAC about the issue. The woman I spoke to at Medicare advised taking out private health cover for my 457 application. All a bit crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Hi All ComLaw Management - Series- Migration Regulations 1994 The link above should go straight to the current edition of the Migration Regulations 1994 but the latest version is not on line. I imagine they will load it over the weekend. I can't vbelieve they would start a working week minus the relevant legislation being where the public should be able to find it. When the new version is available, the regulations governing the 457 visa are in Volume 4, Scroll though the document till you start to see section numbers beginning with 457. It is no use trying to read earlier versions for this because I want to see exactly what the statutory wording is that governs the new health insurance requirements. Common sense is that if the applicant is from a country that has a reciprocal health care agreement with Oz it is highly unlikely that the person will not bother to register with Medicare. It sounds to me as if the Parliamentary draftsmen have slipped on a banana skin by making it a condition of the visa that Medicare cover must be demonstrated before the visa can be granted without thinking to ask Medicare whether this is actually possible in practice. It is not possible in practice unless the applicant for the visa is already in Oz because the UK/OZ RHCA has no legal effect until the feet of the relevant Briton are on Australian soil. I will bang my drum again. Parliamentary draftsmen should NOT be allowed to use any sort of word processing machine. The lot of them should be provided with quill pens, parchment, candles to see by and they should be told, "If you draft it wrongly you can't cross that bit out and continue. You will have to re-write the whole thing from scratch, in longhand, sharpening the quill and mixing your own ink as you go along. I want the finished document on my desk by 9am tomorrow. Illuminations are compulsory as well so leave enough time to draw and paint some of those too." It would make them THINK about what they want to say before they scribble unworkable gibberish instead in the highly unsatsfactory manner for which Bill Gates is mostly to blame. http://www.immi.gov.au/gateways/agents/pdf/457pam3-nom-app.pdf Please see the link above, though. DIAC have taken the unusual step of publishing the PAMs (Policy/Procedures Advice Manuals) about the latest 457 visa changes. Please read Section 79 on Page 84 of the document above. Section 79.2 provides the bones of this camel of an idea. Everybody except Citizens of the Republic of Ireland must actually enrol with Medicare OR obtain a private policy before the 457 visa can be granted. S79.6 is an example of a bone idle draftman's wishful thinking. The draftsman hopefully guesses that one might be able to enter into a binding contract to buy private health cover for the duration of the visa and that the insurance company will obediently agree to scrap the policy and refund all of the premium paid if the insured later rocks up and says, "Hey, I don't need this private policy any more because I've arrived in Oz and I've now enrolled with Medicare. I now want to scrap this binding contact to buy cover from you and I want a 100% refund from you at the same time." They will be told to stroll on. Profits are profits. Contracts for insurance are legally binding and the remedies for breach of contract which they contain are enforceable by the courts. It is unworkable. Instead of trying to fudge round it as the PAMs attempt to do, the solution is to make the Parliamentary draftsman investigate a few facts - eg how the law of contract operates - and then he needs to re-write the new Section 457.222B works in a fashion that is actually achievable in reality and which will not lumber the visa applicant with a financial penalty that Parliament did not intend to cause to any visa applicants. I would not be surprised if somebody in the DIAC legal team has had to scrap his/her weekend in order to re-write 457.22B instead. Until DIAC say otherwise, though, anybody who needs a prompt grant of a 457 visa will have to comply with s79 of the PAMs because there ain't no way that a DIAC CO will be authorised to do anything other than obey the PAMs to the letter. George Lombard or another RMA might be able to get the relevant DIAC Policy bosses (in Canberra) on the phone first thing on Monday to try to get them to sort this muddle out quickly and to announce a viable solution to it as soon as they have devised one. Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Collett Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Funnily enough I sent an email only yesterday to a case officer in London on this very point (ie Medicare enrolment is impossible prior to arrival in Australia) for two of our 457 visa applicant clients. For those affected, don't expect a quick resolution to the problem => make arrangements for private health insurance cover to be initiated upon your arrival in Australia. Best regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Collett Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 PS. As an aside, 410 visaholders (the old Retirement visa) used to require applicants to demonstrate that they had made arrangements for private health cover in Australia prior to visa grant. It was possible to obtain confirmation from the Australian health fund with which we deal that suitable health cover was in place, with the commencement of cover deferred by up to 3 months. This letter was sufficient as to enable the granting of the 410 visa. Hopefully the same will be do-able with the new 457 visa health cover requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest timnlinds Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I've had great fun with Medicare and immigration. I talked to Medicare and they said they couldn't give a medicare card unless I was 1) in Australia and 2) had a visa. I said that I needed the Medicare card to get a visa and that I had an email from immigration to tell me that and I could email it to them. They asked me to fax it over but I haven't heard any more from them..... I then went back to immigration and sent this message:... I've been trying to get some health insurance proof from Medicare. As tax paying UK citizens we are definitely entitled to the Reciprocal Health Care Agreements that are in place between the UK and Australia. But when I spoke to Medicare this morning they say that they cannot give me proof of entitlement until: 1) we are in Australia and 2) they have sight of our visas and passports This is in line with the policies that are published on the medicare website. Is there a clause to waive the requirement for evidence from countries that have Recipricol Health Care Agreeements? What should I do next? And would you believe it, I got this reply.... Hi, Are you able to provide your Medicare card. That will be acceptable. kind regards, XXXX XXXXX Temporary Business Entry Section Unbelievable..... I can only think that they wanted my UK National Health Service cards - so I have sent them over on PDF. The saga continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gollywobbler Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 PS. As an aside, 410 visaholders (the old Retirement visa) used to require applicants to demonstrate that they had made arrangements for private health cover in Australia prior to visa grant. It was possible to obtain confirmation from the Australian health fund with which we deal that suitable health cover was in place, with the commencement of cover deferred by up to 3 months. This letter was sufficient as to enable the granting of the 410 visa. Hopefully the same will be do-able with the new 457 visa health cover requirement. Hi Alan The private health insurers are already offering to do as you suggest for 457 applicants. However this is not a solution. The point is that Parliament intended to allow 457 visa holders who can claim the benefit of an RHCA to do so instead of obtaining private health cover if they so desire. The draftsman has not interpreted Parliament's intention accurately. PAM3 reveals that 457 visa applicants who are currently outside Australia will be forced into contracting to buy private health insurance regardless of whether they need/want it or not simply because they are unable to activate their entitlement to Medicare until after they reach Australia. None of the private insurers offer cover for less than 12 months. None of them offer a "sale or return" deal either. For less than 12 months' premiums it is not worth their while to go on risk even for a few days whilst somebody obtains a Medicare card with which to shut DIAC up. The private insurers will want their own pound of flesh whatever happens. The upshot is that the very people who are intended to have a choice about whether they want private health cover or not are going to be forced into buying it irrespective of whether or not they want it. This has the effect of imposing an unintended financial penalty on them precisely because they are from countries which have RHCAs with Australia. In short, the draftsman has created a situation which is the exact opposite of that which his own Government intended. The other problem with this absurd situation is that all policies of insurance are uberrimae fides contracts. They are unlike ordinary contracts because of this time-honoured and internationally adopted duty of the utmost good faith. Therefore the following scenario could arise: Bloggs agrees to 12 months' private cover in order to get his 457 visa granted. He then goes to Australia. The day after his arrival in Oz he goes to a Medicare office. He tells them that he wants a Medicare card and he wants it asap because he intends to cancel his private health cover as soon as he has his Medicare card. He intends to gamble on the notion that the private insurers will not sue him for a year's premiums. He then has a serious car crash on his way home from the Medicare office. In view of what he told Medicare, his private health cover is voidable by the private insurers because Bloggs has told a third party that he never intended to honour his contract for private insurance. He never intended to honour his own duty to act in the utmost good faith. So Bloggs will get his 457 visa on the strength of an ineffective, unenforceable-by-Bloggs contract for private medical insurance is what it comes down to. He will get it on the strength of nothing more than telling a pack of lies in order to hoodwink an Australian insurer when there is no evidence that the Aussie insurer has acted in anything other than the utmost good faith. Parliamentary draftsmen are supposed to be lawyers. They are supposed to know that contracts for insurance differ from most other types of contract in a way which is absolutely fundamental. They are expected to have the common sense to be able to pick up the phone to Medicare in order to check whether the wishful thinking that they propose to scribble by way of legal draftsmanship is actually capable of working in the fashion which the wishful thinker of a draftsman hopes for. Somebody will get sued by their private insurers, for sure. If I were that somebody, I would add the Minister for Immigration as the second defendant and blame the whole thing on him. He caused this daft situation so he had better pay the disgruntled insurer himself. It is crazy. That is why it needs somebody to go to the top of the Policy section in DIAC first thing tomorrow and tell them firmly, "Oi! This loon idea of yours does not work either in legal theory or in hard reality. You are effectively ordering visa applicants to lie to and to hoodwink legitimate Australian businesses. Is that what the Government instructed DIAC to arrange?" Cheers Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lowell Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Many 457 changes have been announced today, including a generous extension allowing up to 12 months leave without pay. Too much to summarise, see Agents Gateway . Cheers, George Lombard George, can I ask your help on the changes regarding the leave with out pay. As you've said it is too much to summarise, maybe you can point me to the clause where it was mentioned. I've been trying to find it but to no avail. Your help will be highly appreciated. Cheers, Lowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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