UK State Pension

[Northmavine14]

I'm hoping someone can help me!

I lived and worked in Australia for 3 years in the 80s. I am now claiming my UK State pension but being young and naive back then I didn't save any payslips or anything. I worked full time then. I have always been led to believe that there is/was back then some kind of reciprocal agreement between the UK and Australia that would go towards a pension either here or there. But now I am not so sure. The Department of Work and Pensions here are no help whatsoever . Has anyone else been in this situation? Where could I find out my Australian "national insurance number" (if such a thing even exists) or am I even entitled to try and add those years to my qualifying years for the state pension here? This is a salient lesson for anyone out there to save documentation! I would be grateful for any advice at all as this is driving me nuts! Thank you to anyone who has a clue as I am totally out of date with life in Australia now, it must be so different to how I remember my time there.

[AJ]

I dont know about a reciprocal agreement but you should have had a TFN number. Contact the ATO and you will be able to get it

[Northmavine14]

Thank you! I have just been trying to look for more info. Tax File Number? Do you have a contact number or email or address for the Australian Tax Office as I haven't a clue? I've looked in old diaries and I just seem to have noted my work serial number which I don't suppose is my TFN. I won't be able to access the Australian equivalent of the UK government gateway online as it's been so long so I suspect I will have to write to them or preferably email them. I honestly thought that the DWP here would do all that but no it would seem not. Thank you again.

[Ken]

1 hour ago, Northmavine14 said:

Thank you! I have just been trying to look for more info. Tax File Number? Do you have a contact number or email or address for the Australian Tax Office as I haven't a clue? I've looked in old diaries and I just seem to have noted my work serial number which I don't suppose is my TFN. I won't be able to access the Australian equivalent of the UK government gateway online as it's been so long so I suspect I will have to write to them or preferably email them. I honestly thought that the DWP here would do all that but no it would seem not. Thank you again.

The TFN is a 9 digit number. If what you think is a work serial number has 9 digits then it might be your TFN but anything else it won't be. ATO contact details can be found at: Contact us | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au). The overseas enquiries phone number is +61 2 6216 1111 - 8:00am to 5:00pm (AEDT) Monday to Friday.

[Marisawright]

You should certainly be able to claim those years towards your UK pension, though to be honest, 3 years isn't going to make a lot of difference.   

I enquired about this and this is what the International Pensions Centre told me I would need:

• Travel documents
• Passport
• Employer references
• Tax statements
• Statements from two people who can confirm the time you spent in Australia.

It sounds as thought it will be a tall order for you to track all that down.

 

[Northmavine14]

Thank you so much for the link!

Hi Marisawright, well I was given the same info when I wrote in 2016. I don't know if you have actually applied for your State Pension yet in the UK but this is what has happened to me - I applied online and stated the dates I lived and worked in Australia as requested. The form asked for nothing more. I have waited and waited and waited - finally received my first payment without any details whatsoever about how they arrived at the amount awarded. This arrived the following day and there was nothing about my Australian years except a comment which made little sense but it was clear that nothing had been added. As far as I know every qualifying year adds £5 a week to the pension so it may not sound like a lot but it is definitely worth having in this day and age! It is like treading mud getting anything sensible out of the DWP at the moment. I won't be able to get tax certificates or references but I have my passport and my old visa number, addresses, work details etc and 2 people who would vouch for me but, as said, nothing was asked for. I feel I should just give up but I the way the DWP has carried on I just can't at the moment! Many thanks. Are you back in the UK now? I look at this thread a lot, often wondering what my life would have been like if I had returned to Australia in the 80s!

[NickyNook]

If you're claiming the State Pension now then you're what age? - 66? 67? 

If so, - assuming you worked in the UK for the remainder of your working life - then you probably have somewhere between 47 and 50 qualifying years on your NI record. I think they normally start counting from the age of 16 regardless whether you worked at that age.

You only need 35 qualifying years to get a full pension so even if you've lost three potential years because you were living and working in Australia it shouldn't make any difference to the pension amount received. That's probably why DWP didn't need any Australian information - you'd easily reached the maximum period without it.

 

[Northmavine14]

Ah yes that's where it gets complicated. I have reached the age of 66 and find myself a WASPI woman, having already waited 6 extra years for my pension. I have worked full time all my life. However, back in the 80s and 90s I opted out which is something we could do in the NHS and I now find I am apparently 6 years short. None of it makes any sense and getting info is an absolute nightmare from the DWP etc. So, my Australian years would make a difference.Thank you again for taking an interest. I am very grateful.

[Amber Snowball]

1 minute ago, Northmavine14 said:

Ah yes that's where it gets complicated. I have reached the age of 66 and find myself a WASPI woman, having already waited 6 extra years for my pension. I have worked full time all my life. However, back in the 80s and 90s I opted out which is something we could do in the NHS and I now find I am apparently 6 years short. None of it makes any sense and getting info is an absolute nightmare from the DWP etc. So, my Australian years would make a difference.Thank you again for taking an interest. I am very grateful.

Oh, I opted out of serps when I started in the nhs and when this current change to pensions came in my opted out years were reinstated because the higher rate pension no longer exists. I’m younger than you but that shouldn’t make any difference.

So are they saying you only have 29 years? Nothing over 35 years makes any difference.

Hope you get something sorted. Maybe pursue those missing opted out years rather than the Australian years as they should be easier for hmrc to rectify.

[NickyNook]

Oh right. I understand completely now why the Australian years are important.

I’d hope that the ATO could help. Looks like you need a copy of your Tax Statements for the years you were here. Not too onerous for them to provide, hopefully.

Good luck with it.

[Marisawright]

18 hours ago, Northmavine14 said:

Hi Marisawright, well I was given the same info when I wrote in 2016. I don't know if you have actually applied for your State Pension yet in the UK but this is what has happened to me - I applied online and stated the dates I lived and worked in Australia as requested. The form asked for nothing more. I have waited and waited and waited 

As I'm living in Australia, I can't claim my Australian work experience so that wasn't an issue for me.

The annoying thing is that the letter I got (when I asked for a pension forecast) doesn't state how or where to apply for recognition of the extra years.   It did seem clear that it is something you have to do separately from the usual pension application.  

It's probably something they're not used to dealing with these days, since the agreement between Australia and the UK expired over 20 years ago, so it may take a bit of determination to get through to someone who knows what they're doing. 

Are you dealing with the DWP or with the Pension Service?  Make sure you're ringing the right number.  

However, I'd suggest your first step is to see if you can get all the information together.  You will need your two friends to provide sworn statements.  If they're in Australia, they can make a "statutory declaration"(best to use the official Commonwealth form), and have it witnessed by a Justice of the Peace - it will cost them nothing.  See if you can get copies of your Tax Statements from the ATO.  

[Northmavine14]

Thank you again Nicky Nook. I will endeavour to contact the ATO and request the tax statements. I hadn't even thought of that.

Well Marisawright, you are right. When I wrote in 2016 to ask in advance what to do (as I suspected something like this would happen). I asked where to write to etc but they didn't say anything, just that I couldn't do much til I actually applied and now that I have this has happened. They haven't taken any notice and it has taken ages to get my letter. I think I am going to start the process of dispute and then try and get the documentation together but I am slowly giving up hope of getting anywhere. It is so annoying. Thank you again for your interest and help. I will let you know if I get anywhere!

[Northmavine14]

Hi Guys!

Unbelievable. I phoned the Future Pension Service and they told me to phone the International Pension Service. Oh joy!

I actually got through to a wonderful young person called Frank (I love him) He told me that as soon as I mentioned Australia on my application form I should have been referred to them about my years there. He is sending me out some Anzac form to fill in and they will take it from there. I just have to give as many details as I can. He talked about the reciprocal agreement between the UK and Australia, Canada and NZ. He said they would contact the Australian state pension office. He knew exactly where I was coming from and understood my frustration.

For anyone out there in the same situation I hope this helps:

International Pensions number is 0800 731 0341 but Frank (who deals with Australia obviously) has his own number!  0191 218 7777 option 3.

I told him about all the things I was told in 2016 I would need but he said I just had to fill the form in! Talk about lack of communication and no one singing from the same hymn sheet! This has caused me sleepless nights galore. So frustrating. Every year counts for me as I was contracted out via the NHS.

Strangely enough Frank told me mine was the 2nd call he taken on this this morning! 

Thanks guys again and Merry Christmas. I will get back on this thread and let you know what happens.

[Marisawright]

4 minutes ago, Northmavine14 said:

Hi Guys!

Unbelievable. I phoned the Future Pension Service and they told me to phone the International Pension Service. Oh joy!

Was the Future Pension Service the place you were talking to before?  I must say, when you mentioned the DWP I thought perhaps you were talking to the wrong people. It sounds like you're finally on the right track, good luck with it all!

[Northmavine14]

Yes I talked to the Future Pension office first that's a free number on 0800 731 0175. They are contacting the tax office to see if paying last years NI contributions (I was furloughed and didn't earn enough) will make any difference, which I think it will, and explained a bit about the contracted out portion. They told me to call the International Pensions office. I have phoned the DWP 6 times and written to them (got zero response) and no one advised me to call the International Pensions office. No one knows what they are doing and you ask for help and advice and get nowhere. One person told me to be patient, I could have throttled her! I am a WASPI woman and have had to wait 6 years extra for my pension and am still working!

On a news thread this morning, I saw an article about the very head of DWP liking karaoke and apparently she was having a whale of a time last Christmas as well whilst we were all in grim lockdown! That didn't help! If I get round to it eventually I will write to her and tell her the problems I have had. Surely the bureaucracy in Oz isn't as bad???!!! I just hope I actually did pay into the Australian system after all this. Can't imagine I didn't as I had legit jobs with proper payslips etc. I was on a working holiday visa but did get permanent residence status for awhile too. It was all so much easier then from what I read about comments on Pomsinoz. Of course, no longer have that. Thank you again for your interest. It really helps.

[Northmavine14]

Latest - I actually got a call back from someone. It looks like, after all that, the Australian years won't make a difference because everything changed in 2016 and before then I apparently had enough qualifying years to get as much as I can. It is all very complicated. But I will wait for the Anzac form and fill it in anyway because I'm beginning to believe that no one knows what they are talking about! Years after 2016. Of course, the reciprocal agreement has now ended.

[robswife]

Here’s the link for the new state pension, which is what I am now part of, my SPA is not for another 7 years.  Even though I have paid in over 37 years of NI contributions in order to get the full pension I need to pay in at least another 5 years so I’m looking at voluntary contributions, at the moment I will get approx £155 pw instead of the full pension of £179.60 pw.  
 

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension

[Northmavine14]

Hi Robswife

I've reached the conclusion that the British state pension is really unfair. I had 46 years but apparently was still years short. I have given up trying to understand it all. My Aussie years made no difference. The system is in chaos at the moment because they had to send off 500 staff to sort out the errors made years ago when they didn't pay certain women who were entitled to pensions. I haven't got the full pension either but that is due to opting out of the secondary pension whilst in the NHS.  I understand that part but still owing years is a mystery to me. Good luck with it all .

[Parley]

On 27/01/2022 at 21:53, Northmavine14 said:

Hi Robswife

I've reached the conclusion that the British state pension is really unfair. I had 46 years but apparently was still years short. I have given up trying to understand it all. My Aussie years made no difference. The system is in chaos at the moment because they had to send off 500 staff to sort out the errors made years ago when they didn't pay certain women who were entitled to pensions. I haven't got the full pension either but that is due to opting out of the secondary pension whilst in the NHS.  I understand that part but still owing years is a mystery to me. Good luck with it all .

Without looking into it very much it does seem a pretty poor return for 30 years of investment.

I'm sure an Australian system where if you were contributing the same amount of money into a growth accumulation fund, you would end up with a lot more money in retirement.

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, Parley said:

Without looking into it very much it does seem a pretty poor return for 30 years of investment.

I'm sure an Australian system where if you were contributing the same amount of money into a growth accumulation fund, you would end up with a lot more money in retirement.

I doubt it. Have you looked at how much the annual National Insurance contribution has been over the last 30 years?  And remember, that contribution is also paying for your medical care on the NHS and your unemployment benefits. 

To give you an idea, I backpaid 6 years of NI contributions recently.  I will get all of those contributions back in increased pension payments in about 3 years.  

[Ken]

5 hours ago, Parley said:

Without looking into it very much it does seem a pretty poor return for 30 years of investment.

I'm sure an Australian system where if you were contributing the same amount of money into a growth accumulation fund, you would end up with a lot more money in retirement.

No, under the Australian equivalent of the UK state pension you can pay in for 30 years and still might not pass the residence test, the income test and/or the assets test and so not receive a cent.

You are getting confused with the Australian Superannuation system which is the Australian equivalent of the UK's personal pension plans.

[Parley]

2 hours ago, Ken said:

No, under the Australian equivalent of the UK state pension you can pay in for 30 years and still might not pass the residence test, the income test and/or the assets test and so not receive a cent.

You are getting confused with the Australian Superannuation system which is the Australian equivalent of the UK's personal pension plans.

I'm not confused about anything.

I said if you put the equivalent of your NI contributions into an Australian Super growth fund for 30 years you would end up with a lot more than the measly £150 a week that UK gives you.

Australia gives you a lot more anyway as a pension without paying anything as contributions.

[Marisawright]

8 minutes ago, Parley said:

I said if you put the equivalent of your NI contributions into an Australian Super growth fund for 30 years you would end up with a lot more than the measly £150 a week that UK gives you.

Give us some concrete figures?  Also as I said, the NI contributions are not just paying for the pension, they are also paying for your NHS.  So how much are you calculating for the pension contribution?

[Tulip1]

33 minutes ago, Parley said:

I'm not confused about anything.

I said if you put the equivalent of your NI contributions into an Australian Super growth fund for 30 years you would end up with a lot more than the measly £150 a week that UK gives you.

Australia gives you a lot more anyway as a pension without paying anything as contributions.

It’s actually £179 a week.  Those on nothing but a state pension also get a top up called pension credit.  It’s still not a fortune but the state pension was never meant to give a life of luxury.  It is enough to live on carefully.  People have been encouraged to put into pensions/save for their retirements for a long time.  Certainly everyone alive today would have known that.   If people don’t/can’t then they will be cared for by the state but they won’t be shopping in Waitrose too often. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Tulip1