Brexit Poll

[MrsWuh]

9 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

The good old red tape red herring, if you want to sell into the EU market or any other market you will have to comply with their regulations or your goods won't even get into their shops, it doesn't matter what we think is acceptable will be irrelevant.. 

How much trade do you think we do with the EU,  I would guess it is a whole lot more than 92%  and if that is right, British manufacturers will still have to comply with a fantastic array of different regulations across a whole load of different countries that is why trading with EU is so much simpler.than trading with countries where regulations can vary from state to state in some countries.

Only 8% of British businesses trade with the EU. Why should the other 92% have to worry about EU regulations? Most of them are small businesses. They don't have to worry about US regulations if they don't trade with the US, or Australian regulations if they don't trade with Australia. But the EU is able to impose all kinds of restrictions on them.

Nothing is stopping businesses from trading with the EU and sticking to their regulations if they have to - why drag everyone else into the net too?

 

[MrsWuh]

8 hours ago, newjez said:

 

I can't, I live in a safe Tory seat.

What EU restraints do you object to?

Campaign for PR then. I live in a safe Tory seat as well and I don't vote Tory. You'll just have to grin and bear it until enough of the population agrees with you and wants to change things - that's democracy. Now you know how the Eurosceptics felt for 40 years!

How would you propose changing EU law if the British people didn't agree with it, but a majority of the other countries did? 73 MEPs out of 751 aren't going to change anything, and that's the maximum number of votes the UK can have. That's the EU restraint I feel most strongly about - and that's where the lack of control comes in.

Far-right groups are on the rise across Europe. People tend to take EU elections more lightly than national ones and use them as a protest - witness UKIP's victory in 2014. How would you feel if these right-wing groups gained a majority in the EU Parliament and started passing extremist laws you didnt agree with? How would you feel, knowing that these laws would be imposed on the UK even if 100% of the British people flatly disagreed with them - and knowing there was absolutely nothing we could do about it?

My instinct is that you would be screaming for Brexit at the top of your voice. But either you agree with the concept of the EU superstate or you don't. You can't just keep voting your country in or out depending on whether you happen to agree with the current mindset of the EU Parliament.

I don't want my country ruled by 27 others in their own interests rather than our own. Simple as that.

 

 

 

[Gbye grey sky]

1 hour ago, MrsWuh said:

Only 8% of British businesses trade with the EU. Why should the other 92% have to worry about EU regulations? Most of them are small businesses. They don't have to worry about US regulations if they don't trade with the US, or Australian regulations if they don't trade with Australia. But the EU is able to impose all kinds of restrictions on them.

Nothing is stopping businesses from trading with the EU and sticking to their regulations if they have to - why drag everyone else into the net too?

 

Much of this regulation is to do with safety and quality standards and standardisation.  These will be retained by the UK not solely because of aiding trade with the EU but because they make sense and help the consumers across the EU.  Unfortunately so many have bought into the straight bananas claptrap.

[MrsWuh]

3 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

Much of this regulation is to do with safety and quality standards and standardisation.  These will be retained by the UK not solely because of aiding trade with the EU but because they make sense and help the consumers across the EU.  Unfortunately so many have bought into the straight bananas claptrap.

So there you go. We don't need to be in the EU to have the same standards. But if we decide they are superfluous or having unintended consequences, we will be able to scrap them or amend them if we so wish.

So tell me again... why do we need to be in the EU?

[BacktoDemocracy]

1 hour ago, MrsWuh said:

Campaign for PR then. I live in a safe Tory seat as well and I don't vote Tory. You'll just have to grin and bear it until enough of the population agrees with you and wants to change things - that's democracy. Now you know how the Eurosceptics felt for 40 years!

How would you propose changing EU law if the British people didn't agree with it, but a majority of the other countries did? 73 MEPs out of 751 aren't going to change anything, and that's the maximum number of votes the UK can have. That's the EU restraint I feel most strongly about - and that's where the lack of control comes in.

Far-right groups are on the rise across Europe. People tend to take EU elections more lightly than national ones and use them as a protest - witness UKIP's victory in 2014. How would you feel if these right-wing groups gained a majority in the EU Parliament and started passing extremist laws you didnt agree with? How would you feel, knowing that these laws would be imposed on the UK even if 100% of the British people flatly disagreed with them - and knowing there was absolutely nothing we could do about it?

My instinct is that you would be screaming for Brexit at the top of your voice. But either you agree with the concept of the EU superstate or you don't. You can't just keep voting your country in or out depending on whether you happen to agree with the current mindset of the EU Parliament.

I don't want my country ruled by 27 others in their own interests rather than our own. Simple as that.

 

 

 

If you are a member of a club then rules are made by votes, and the Tories were part of a much bigger grouping of right wing MEP's who held sway in the EU so they were part of the powerful group that made policy,  that is what democracy is all about,  isn't that what the brexiteers have been chanting ever since last June, so you can't be a member of the EU and expect to be  a special case all the time and pick and choose which rules you accept or don't, this has been the UK's approach to the EU for decades.

As for the rise of right wing parties we have a right wing party in power right here and now supported by a universally right wing xenophobic press and aiming to exploit a weak opposition to cement its hold on power for the next 5 years and beyond and force on the country whatever crap brexit deal she can stitch up that will satisfy the extreme right of her party and make her position as leader of the party unassailable by a revolt on the backbenches from right or left.. 

[Gbye grey sky]

1 hour ago, MrsWuh said:

So there you go. We don't need to be in the EU to have the same standards. But if we decide they are superfluous or having unintended consequences, we will be able to scrap them or amend them if we so wish.

So tell me again... why do we need to be in the EU?

Unlikely you can scrap them or amend them in reality as the negative consequences will outweigh any small gains.  Inside the EU you have some influence on the formulation of these regulations, outside it, none.

Your question is pointless now as Britain will not be in the EU come 2019.

The UK has benefited by being a member of a huge trading bloc.  If Brexit results in the UK leaving this as I suspect it will then it will become apparent why the UK needed to be in the EU.  All those who have faith in the collective brilliance of Farage, Johnson, Fox, Davis and Redwood to mastermind a path to national greatness stand by to be wowed.

[BacktoDemocracy]

1 hour ago, MrsWuh said:

So there you go. We don't need to be in the EU to have the same standards. But if we decide they are superfluous or having unintended consequences, we will be able to scrap them or amend them if we so wish.

So tell me again... why do we need to be in the EU?

Because we get tariff free and customs free trade with one of the biggest markets in the world and regardless of how small the number of businesses trade directly with the EU those are the businesses with the most trade in terms of value and those businesses buy enormous amounts of goods from other British businesses in the UK so support a whole range of other businesses who do not trade directly into the EU but will be dependent, often, on raw materials from the EU. There is also the services sector such as financial services who although not trading directly into the Eurozone make the money deals between GBP, dollars and Euros happen because they are allowed to operate in all those zones because we are part of the EU, no EU membership, no dealing rights and they have to have branches in the EU and the value of trade in the UK plummets and the banks will make  decisions about where to headquarter themselves.   

[BacktoDemocracy]

With regard to the number of businesses trading with the EU, there are 2,550,000 businesses registered in the UK,  so 8% of those is 200,000 trading directly into the EU and there are shall we say 25 car factories exporting into the EU, which are probably the biggest exporters in the UK  sucking in huge amounts of material  from UK companies, this still leaves 199,975 of the largest companies also exporting into the EU.

Does that give an illustration of how important the EU is as a trading block  

Edited April 19, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy

[MrsWuh]

26 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

If you are a member of a club then rules are made by votes, and the Tories were part of a much bigger grouping of right wing MEP's who held sway in the EU so they were part of the powerful group that made policy,  that is what democracy is all about,  isn't that what the brexiteers have been chanting ever since last June, so you can't be a member of the EU and expect to be  a special case all the time and pick and choose which rules you accept or don't, this has been the UK's approach to the EU for decades.

As for the rise of right wing parties we have a right wing party in power right here and now supported by a universally right wing xenophobic press and aiming to exploit a weak opposition to cement its hold on power for the next 5 years and beyond and force on the country whatever crap brexit deal she can stitch up that will satisfy the extreme right of her party and make her position as leader of the party unassailable by a revolt on the backbenches from right or left.. 

And we can vote May out. No-one is obliged to vote for the Tories just because the opposition is weak. But the Tories are not 'extreme-right' and never have been. If they are moving further to the right now and gaining support for it, it's because they are taking advantage of a shift back in that direction by the electorate. That is also democracy.

The MEPs don't make policy. The EU Commission proposes and drafts new laws, and implements and enforces EU laws that have been passed. All the MEPs do is agree to the proposals or reject them. The Commissioners are nominated by member states but not elected by the people of Europe. We can't vote them out, any more than we can vote out over 90% of the MEPs.

Now this is fine if you concur with the idea of a European superstate, along the lines of the US. If you see yourself as European first and foremost, and Britain as a bit-part cog in a huge machine, then it is quite possible that you are happy to sacrifice British needs for the greater good, whatever the EU decides the 'greater good' should be. That's your prerogative. But the fact is that most British people do not think like that - and that includes a huge chunk of people who voted Remain. All the parties know that, which is precisely why they had to keep negotiating opt-outs and rebates and 'picking and choosing' rules. It's all very well saying that the UK should abide by all the rules of the club - Euro, Schengen and all - but the inevitable consequence would still be Brexit, just by an even greater margin!

 

[ScottieGirl]

On Thursday, April 06, 2017 at 2:35 PM, amibovered said:

The EU is the biggest scam in human history, it's purpose is to maximise corporate profit, and keep down workers income, shameful.

I am not sure that's it's purpose but it is certainly the result in Spain,Italy and Greece where up to a quarter of workers are unemployed  so no income at all. 

 

 

 

[MrsWuh]

38 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

Unlikely you can scrap them or amend them in reality as the negative consequences will outweigh any small gains.  Inside the EU you have some influence on the formulation of these regulations, outside it, none.

Your question is pointless now as Britain will not be in the EU come 2019.

The UK has benefited by being a member of a huge trading bloc.  If Brexit results in the UK leaving this as I suspect it will then it will become apparent why the UK needed to be in the EU.  All those who have faith in the collective brilliance of Farage, Johnson, Fox, Davis and Redwood to mastermind a path to national greatness stand by to be wowed.

You are confusing two different things. The UK forming, scrapping or amending its own regulations as we see fit. And the EU forming, scrapping or amending their regulations as they see fit. Why would we need to influence EU regulations? We won't be bound by them any more - that's the point. Do we influence US regulations? Or Australian regulations? No, we just accept what they do, adjust accordingly and get on with it - and it will be exactly the same with the EU.

[MrsWuh]

52 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Because we get tariff free and customs free trade with one of the biggest markets in the world and regardless of how small the number of businesses trade directly with the EU those are the businesses with the most trade in terms of value and those businesses buy enormous amounts of goods from other British businesses in the UK so support a whole range of other businesses who do not trade directly into the EU but will be dependent, often, on raw materials from the EU. There is also the services sector such as financial services who although not trading directly into the Eurozone make the money deals between GBP, dollars and Euros happen because they are allowed to operate in all those zones because we are part of the EU, no EU membership, no dealing rights and they have to have branches in the EU and the value of trade in the UK plummets and the banks will make  decisions about where to headquarter themselves.   

Except it's not free, is it? It costs us around £10billion pounds a year net just to belong to the club, never mind all the other costs associated with membership. You do realise we will still be able to trade with Europe and buy raw materials from them, right?! We don't need a free trade deal to be able to do business within the EU. Tariffs work both ways. And, what's more, we will be free to make up our own rules to attract investment to the UK and away from Europe...

[MrsWuh]

34 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

With regard to the number of businesses trading with the EU, there are 2,550,000 businesses registered in the UK,  so 8% of those is 200,000 trading directly into the EU and there are shall we say 25 car factories exporting into the EU, which are probably the biggest exporters in the UK  sucking in huge amounts of material  from UK companies, this still leaves 199,975 of the largest companies also exporting into the EU.

Does that give an illustration of how important the EU is as a trading block  

It is important. What makes you think these companies won't be able to keep exporting into the EU?

[newjez]

4 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

Campaign for PR then. I live in a safe Tory seat as well and I don't vote Tory. You'll just have to grin and bear it until enough of the population agrees with you and wants to change things - that's democracy. Now you know how the Eurosceptics felt for 40 years!

How would you propose changing EU law if the British people didn't agree with it, but a majority of the other countries did? 73 MEPs out of 751 aren't going to change anything, and that's the maximum number of votes the UK can have. That's the EU restraint I feel most strongly about - and that's where the lack of control comes in.

Far-right groups are on the rise across Europe. People tend to take EU elections more lightly than national ones and use them as a protest - witness UKIP's victory in 2014. How would you feel if these right-wing groups gained a majority in the EU Parliament and started passing extremist laws you didnt agree with? How would you feel, knowing that these laws would be imposed on the UK even if 100% of the British people flatly disagreed with them - and knowing there was absolutely nothing we could do about it?

My instinct is that you would be screaming for Brexit at the top of your voice. But either you agree with the concept of the EU superstate or you don't. You can't just keep voting your country in or out depending on whether you happen to agree with the current mindset of the EU Parliament.

I don't want my country ruled by 27 others in their own interests rather than our own. Simple as that.

 

 

 

Completely irrelevant. What if it rained cows?

[MrsWuh]

Just now, newjez said:

Completely irrelevant. What if it rained cows?

Does the EU protect us from raining cows then? Wow - if only Cameron had told us that last year!

 

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

You are confusing two different things. The UK forming, scrapping or amending its own regulations as we see fit. And the EU forming, scrapping or amending their regulations as they see fit. Why would we need to influence EU regulations? We won't be bound by them any more - that's the point. Do we influence US regulations? Or Australian regulations? No, we just accept what they do, adjust accordingly and get on with it - and it will be exactly the same with the EU.

Because those rules and regulations will determine our ability to sell our goods and services into their market, from drugs to agricultural produce,  end of.

Which EU rules do you think are going to go in the bonfre of ted tape, it's going to be all those that protect workers rights and legal protections for consumers, welcome to rrrrrip off Britain PLC..

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

It is important. What makes you think these companies won't be able to keep exporting into the EU?

They will be able to but 

A) they may have to pay tariffs on their goods making them more expensive to buy in Europe and uncompetitive

B) they may be subject to customs inspections at points of entry making transport much more difficult and expensive, making them less competitive, this slow down would impact time sensitive goods such as dairy products.

C) if the EU change regulations about the type of produce and its quality manufacturers might have to spend weeks resetting production lines and getting goods reapproved.

D) for services like the banks they will not be able to trade in the Euro zone without their organisation being within it unless their is a deal stitched up on this, whispers that I have heard is that the banks doubt this and are already getting premises and staff established in Dublin and Frankfurt.

[newjez]

3 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

If you are a member of a club then rules are made by votes, and the Tories were part of a much bigger grouping of right wing MEP's who held sway in the EU so they were part of the powerful group that made policy,  that is what democracy is all about,  isn't that what the brexiteers have been chanting ever since last June, so you can't be a member of the EU and expect to be  a special case all the time and pick and choose which rules you accept or don't, this has been the UK's approach to the EU for decades.

As for the rise of right wing parties we have a right wing party in power right here and now supported by a universally right wing xenophobic press and aiming to exploit a weak opposition to cement its hold on power for the next 5 years and beyond and force on the country whatever crap brexit deal she can stitch up that will satisfy the extreme right of her party and make her position as leader of the party unassailable by a revolt on the backbenches from right or left.. 

Actually, this could be a good thing. After the election she won't need to bow to the europhiles or Eurosceptics within her party. She will be able to do pretty much whatever she wants. She won't even have to appease the general public, as she won't need to face them for over three years after brexit. She could do what is best for the country. Not saying she will. But she will have the power to do so.

[newjez]

3 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

With regard to the number of businesses trading with the EU, there are 2,550,000 businesses registered in the UK,  so 8% of those is 200,000 trading directly into the EU and there are shall we say 25 car factories exporting into the EU, which are probably the biggest exporters in the UK  sucking in huge amounts of material  from UK companies, this still leaves 199,975 of the largest companies also exporting into the EU.

Does that give an illustration of how important the EU is as a trading block  

Fake maths. It's like fake news, just not as sexy.

[newjez]

2 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

Except it's not free, is it? It costs us around £10billion pounds a year net just to belong to the club, never mind all the other costs associated with membership. You do realise we will still be able to trade with Europe and buy raw materials from them, right?! We don't need a free trade deal to be able to do business within the EU. Tariffs work both ways. And, what's more, we will be free to make up our own rules to attract investment to the UK and away from Europe...

Not exactly true.

[newjez]

17 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

They will be able to but 

A) they may have to pay tariffs on their goods making them more expensive to buy in Europe and uncompetitive

B) they may be subject to customs inspections at points of entry making transport much more difficult and expensive, making them less competitive, this slow down would impact time sensitive goods such as dairy products.

C) if the EU change regulations about the type of produce and its quality manufacturers might have to spend weeks resetting production lines and getting goods reapproved.

D) for services like the banks they will not be able to trade in the Euro zone without their organisation being within it unless their is a deal stitched up on this, whispers that I have heard is that the banks doubt this and are already getting premises and staff established in Dublin and Frankfurt.

Tariffs are really only the frost on the tip of the ice berg.

The real problems arise with the customs computer system which doesn't stand a chance of coping, and the EU treating the UK as a third country under WTO rules. The UK will grind to a halt. How long can businesses survive under such circumstances?

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/wtooption001.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiOrJPb3rDTAhXMULwKHZC_B0kQFghFMAU&usg=AFQjCNHKZ-xHeEbh35NzuuQ0MBmmlTJWbw&sig2=j2Wc0Td8J16zX-ZbAnu9GQ

Edited April 19, 2017 by newjez

[BacktoDemocracy]

9 minutes ago, newjez said:

Actually, this could be a good thing. After the election she won't need to bow to the europhiles or Eurosceptics within her party. She will be able to do pretty much whatever she wants. She won't even have to appease the general public, as she won't need to face them for over three years after brexit. She could do what is best for the country. Not saying she will. But she will have the power to do so.

I agree she may do what's best for the country, she may be willing to get shut of the europhobes but no Tory PM has managed it yet, I don't have confidence in her, she was on the remain side and hardly made a squeak in support,  seems like she was hedging her bets. What is she doing now, she seems to be frightened of Daily Mail woman and I cannot see the newspapers allowing any deal other than out completely.

[newjez]

4 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

I agree she may do what's best for the country, she may be willing to get shut of the europhobes but no Tory PM has managed it yet, I don't have confidence in her, she was on the remain side and hardly made a squeak in support,  seems like she was hedging her bets. What is she doing now, she seems to be frightened of Daily Mail woman and I cannot see the newspapers allowing any deal other than out completely.

Will Murdoch survive another two years?

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

Except it's not free, is it? It costs us around £10billion pounds a year net just to belong to the club, never mind all the other costs associated with membership. You do realise we will still be able to trade with Europe and buy raw materials from them, right?! We don't need a free trade deal to be able to do business within the EU. Tariffs work both ways. And, what's more, we will be free to make up our own rules to attract investment to the UK and away from Europe...

And where is the money going to come from to replace tha CAP payments which will have to be increased once we are in competition with the EU farmers who have 10 times the land in cultivation than the UK

And replace the grants to low economic growth areas in the UK 

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, MrsWuh said:

Except it's not free, is it? It costs us around £10billion pounds a year net just to belong to the club, never mind all the other costs associated with membership. You do realise we will still be able to trade with Europe and buy raw materials from them, right?! We don't need a free trade deal to be able to do business within the EU. Tariffs work both ways. And, what's more, we will be free to make up our own rules to attract investment to the UK and away from Europe...

If we go down the low tax, low regulation option to attract inward investment then the country will simply be an extension of the states, it will be a banana republic without any bananas, all of the welfare state that was bought with millions of the lives of ordinary working men and women in the 1st and 2nd WW's  would be gone and we would be like workers in the states with no free health care and no statutory holidays, it would make zero hours contracts look like a luxury.