186 VISA - Occupation Licence

[Nick UK]

Hi all

 

I have a bit of a chicken and egg situation regarding the 186 VISA. My occupation, Real Estate Representative, requires a Licence in order to practice in Australia. This in itself is not a problem as I can simply get the Licence once I move (and in fact can begin studying while in the UK). However, the VISA requires I hold the Licence at the time of application which is odd as you are not allowed to gain a Licence until you are in Australia? When I spoke to DIBP they simply suggested I perhaps fly to Australia on a tourist VISA, study for 3 months or so and gain the Licence, then fly back to the UK and then lodge the application. This seems extremely counter intuitive and a complete waste of time and money as DIBP could quite easily decline the VISA application for another reason. It would make more sense to make the VISA subject to gaining the Licence or give a time frame to gain the Licence prior to entering the country or starting work etc? I really cannot see the logic in their advice and struggle to accept there isn't a more credible and sensible answer. It would end up costing nearly $20,000 AUD to make the trip from the UK, pay for the course, get the Licence, accommodation etc to gain an Australian Licence for a job in a country you haven't even applied for a VISA yet? This makes no sense to me at all.

 

If anyone has any advice I would be grateful.

 

Best regards

Nick

[Nemesis]

Where did you read that you need to hold the licence before you can get the visa? I know you would need a skills assessment but I've not heard of needing the actual licence first?

[Nick UK]

Hi Nemisis

 

This is a requisite of the VISA - http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/186-

 

 

[h=3]Who could get this visa[/h]You might be able to get this visa if you:

 

 

• have been nominated by an approved Australian employer within the six months before you apply
• are under the age of 50 at the time of application, unless you are exempt
  
• have the required skills and qualifications for the position (at time of application lodgement you must have the required skills and qualifications for the position you have been nominated for – you must hold any mandatory registration, license or professional membership, or you must already be fully assessed as suitable by the relevant body)
  
• have appropriate English language skills (at the time of application lodgement), unless you are exempt
  
• meet health and character requirements
  
• meet the requirements of the stream in which you apply.
  

 

[Bungo]

Hi Nemisis

 

This is a requisite of the VISA - http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/186-

 

 

Who could get this visa

 

You might be able to get this visa if you:

 

 

• have been nominated by an approved Australian employer within the six months before you apply

• are under the age of 50 at the time of application, unless you are exempt

• have the required skills and qualifications for the position (at time of application lodgement you must have the required skills and qualifications for the position you have been nominated for – you must hold any mandatory registration, license or professional membership, or you must already be fully assessed as suitable by the relevant body)

• have appropriate English language skills (at the time of application lodgement), unless you are exempt

• meet health and character requirements

• meet the requirements of the stream in which you apply.

 

 

What about the bit that says "or you must a.ready be fully assessed as suitable". That suggests skills assessment to me, which would be usual for a 186 direct entry visa. What has your prospective employer said, have they sponsored befoee and are they using a migrwtion agent!

[Nick UK]

Hi Bungo

 

I already hold a positive skills assessment so agree with you that should be enough to satisfy DIBP that I would be able to meet the mandatory licence requirements once I enrol and complete the necessary course. However, the relevant licensing body (in this case REISA) cannot state you are assessed as suitable simply based on a skills assessment as by law one must have an Australian Real Estate licence to practice real estate in Australia! My prospective employer is taking advice from a migration agent as we tried the 457 route but their nomination got refused due to not enough Labour Market Testing. Hence we are now exploring the 186 or 187 route. Ironically, on the 457 DIBP grant you the VISA and allow you time upon entry to Australia to gain your Licence. But on the 186 they insist you have it at time of application? Very odd.

[Bungo]

Hi Bungo

 

I already hold a positive skills assessment so agree with you that should be enough to satisfy DIBP that I would be able to meet the mandatory licence requirements once I enrol and complete the necessary course. However, the relevant licensing body (in this case REISA) cannot state you are assessed as suitable simply based on a skills assessment as by law one must have an Australian Real Estate licence to practice real estate in Australia! My prospective employer is taking advice from a migration agent as we tried the 457 route but their nomination got refused due to not enough Labour Market Testing. Hence we are now exploring the 186 or 187 route. Ironically, on the 457 DIBP grant you the VISA and allow you time upon entry to Australia to gain your Licence. But on the 186 they insist you have it at time of application? Very odd.

 

So if you have a positive skills assessment why do you think you need to do anything else for visa purposes. It clearly states "OR" be already assessed. And you are, I don't understand why you are reading this as if you need to get a licence first, because what you have posted does not say that.

 

Licensing is required for loads of occupations, electricians, plumbers, nurses, it doesn't need to be done before they can get a visa though, just the skills assessment needs to be doen for visa purposes.

 

By the way, if the nomination was declined for a 457 visa, it would not be my logical conclusion that it would be easier for a permanent visa.

[Nick UK]

Hi Bungo

 

I understand where you are coming from but believe you have mis-interpreted the requirements set out by DIPB.

 

A skills assessment and mandatory licensing are two completely separate issues. One has zero bearing on the other - both are required. Yes, it says you must hold the licence or be assessed as suitable by the relevant body. However, that relates to Licensing not Skills Assessment. The relevant body for licensing is REISA (Real Estate Institute of South Australia) and it is only it who can provide a licence or confirm the candidate is suitable. They cannot confirm a candidate is suitable unless they either have a licence or have enough RPL points to have one by default. VET ASSESS cannot comment on any issue relating to mandatory licensing, their role is purely skills assessment. Furthermore, unless the occupation is exempt, which mine is not, ALL occupations requiring a mandatory licence must have it in place at the time of application. This is stated quite clearly. What is odd is that on a 457 they give you time to get the licence and grant you the VISA on the basis you will get it later.

 

Yes of course the 457 is easier than a PR VISA but the issue of Labour Market Testing is not relevant for a PR application.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

[VERYSTORMY]

Sorry, I agree with Bungo on this.

 

The section you have posted is pretty much word for word identical as other licensed occupations. It states you are licensed OR have a positive assessment. You have a positive assessment and so pass the section.

 

I am more surprised you have found an employer willing to sponsor straight off for a 186!

[Bungo]

Hi Bungo

 

I understand where you are coming from but believe you have mis-interpreted the requirements set out by DIPB.

 

A skills assessment and mandatory licensing are two completely separate issues. One has zero bearing on the other - both are required. Yes, it says you must hold the licence or be assessed as suitable by the relevant body. However, that relates to Licensing not Skills Assessment. The relevant body for licensing is REISA (Real Estate Institute of South Australia) and it is only it who can provide a licence or confirm the candidate is suitable. They cannot confirm a candidate is suitable unless they either have a licence or have enough RPL points to have one by default. VET ASSESS cannot comment on any issue relating to mandatory licensing, their role is purely skills assessment. Furthermore, unless the occupation is exempt, which mine is not, ALL occupations requiring a mandatory licence must have it in place at the time of application. This is stated quite clearly. What is odd is that on a 457 they give you time to get the licence and grant you the VISA on the basis you will get it later.

 

Yes of course the 457 is easier than a PR VISA but the issue of Labour Market Testing is not relevant for a PR application.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

I am somewhat baffled that you feel the need to tell me that skills assessment and licensing are two separate issues. Because that is the main point of what I have been saying to you!!!

 

But for the visa, you only need skills assessment. This is stated in what you have posted yourself. You have posted paragraphs that state you need to be licenced *OR* have a skills assessment. You have a skills assessment so job done (for visa purposes).

 

And again as I have mentioned to work many occupations require some form of licensing, but this does not need to be done prior to securing the visa. If you cannot acceot it though, then I would suggest you go to Australia, take the course and then apply for your visa as per your first post.

 

Labour market testing is not a requirement for a 457 visa. Hence my comment that if there was trouble with the nomination fr a temporary visa then I would expect same for a permanent visa.

[Nick UK]

Hi VeryStormy

 

I would be extremely happy to be wrong! A recent email from DIBP clarified any doubt, see below. I understand how you are interpreting the section I pasted from DIBP website in my earlier post but I don't agree that simply having a positive skills assessment equates to not requiring mandatory licensing at the time of lodgement. DIBP are quite clear on this on their website and their email to me below. If you go through the link I posted I think you will see what I am saying. My occupation requires licensing as mandatory so having a skills assessment doesn't allow me to practice real estate in Australia, all it does is tick a box on the document checklist re a skills assessment.

'Dear Mr,

Thank you for your enquiry.

Please note that if your occupation requires Australian registration or

licensing you may be required to obtain it in Australia before your visa

can be approved.

According to 186 visa document checklist please see requirements for

registration and licensing:

Skills and qualifications

Registration, licensing or professional membership, if required for

your occupation in the state or territory in which you will be

working. Documents from the relevant Australian registration and

licensing authorities that show you hold, or will be able to meet,

necessary registration and licensing requirements. The documents

must specify both of the following:

the type of registration or licensing held

the name and contact details for the registration or licensing

authority.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/186-/Employer-Nomination-Scheme-(subclass-186)-applicant-document-checklist

[Nick UK]

Bungo,

 

I appreciate all your posts, let me say that to avoid any misunderstanding.

 

Regarding Labour Market Testing - please don't make statements which are completely factually wrong. Labour Market Testing IS a requirement of the Nomination stage of the 457 VISA process. If you do your research and actually check, you will see this quite clearly. The rules changed in 2013 so please check your facts before you make posts like that.

 

As for the Licence issue - I agree with you that it SHOULD be as you state but you have not read the section correctly. It does NOT say 'you need to be licensed OR have a skills assessment'. I have no idea where you get this from. It says: ...'you must hold any mandatory registration, license or professional membership, or you must already be fully assessed as suitable by the relevant body.

You have chosen to interpret '... assessed as suitable by the relevant body' as meaning 'having a skills assessment'. That's fine, I agree that makes total sense. However, I'm afraid this is not what DIBP mean at all. They mean if the relevant LICENSING body state you are suitable then fine. VETASESSES having nothing to do with Licensing so a skills assessment doesn't legally allow you do your job in Australia - only a Licence can do this.

 

Thanks again for all the comments, they are much appreciated.

[Bungo]

Bungo,

 

I appreciate all your posts, let me say that to avoid any misunderstanding.

 

Regarding Labour Market Testing - please don't make statements which are completely factually wrong. Labour Market Testing IS a requirement of the Nomination stage of the 457 VISA process. If you do your research and actually check, you will see this quite clearly. The rules changed in 2013 so please check your facts before you make posts like that.

 

As for the Licence issue - I agree with you that it SHOULD be as you state but you have not read the section correctly. It does NOT say 'you need to be licensed OR have a skills assessment'. I have no idea where you get this from. It says: ...'you must hold any mandatory registration, license or professional membership, or you must already be fully assessed as suitable by the relevant body.

You have chosen to interpret '... assessed as suitable by the relevant body' as meaning 'having a skills assessment'. That's fine, I agree that makes total sense. However, I'm afraid this is not what DIBP mean at all. They mean if the relevant LICENSING body state you are suitable then fine. VETASESSES having nothing to do with Licensing so a skills assessment doesn't legally allow you do your job in Australia - only a Licence can do this.

 

Thanks again for all the comments, they are much appreciated.

 

Gosh I am really baffled at why you are not getting this. I don't know what else to say to you. So I will make this my last post as I am repeating myself now.

 

But do you see that bit you have highlighted and I have referred to in my last three posts it says "or you must be fully assessed".

 

I will draw further particular attention to the word "OR".

 

You have said you have a skills assessment so you are fully assessed when immigration talks about assessment it means skills assessment. You said you have one.

 

You are not the first person to come on PIO and work in an occupation that requires licensing. Thousands have. The visa process requires skills assessments not licensing. If you insist that you do, then you are the first person ever that has been in this situation.

[Nick UK]

Bungo, yes I agree we tend to be going round in circles so please don't post further. I understand what you are saying and can obviously read. For some reason you don't seem able to comprehend the difference in how we are interpreting the word 'assessed' -- i made it very clear how I was interpreting it but you don't seem to able to see this. It's ok I really don't want to get into an argument with someone who thinks Labour Market Testing is not required on a 457.

 

Thank you for your input and time spent it is appreciated. The email directly from Immigration is extremely clear and contradicts what you are saying. It is for this reason why there is an element of confusion. Obviously, it doesn't make sense - that is the whole point of my original post.

[NicF]

I suggest posting in the ask an agent section of the forum and see what the MARA registered agents on here have to say.

[Nemesis]

Gosh I am really baffled at why you are not getting this. I don't know what else to say to you. So I will make this my last post as I am repeating myself now.

 

But do you see that bit you have highlighted and I have referred to in my last three posts it says "or you must be fully assessed".

 

I will draw further particular attention to the word "OR".

 

You have said you have a skills assessment so you are fully assessed when immigration talks about assessment it means skills assessment. You said you have one.

 

You are not the first person to come on PIO and work in an occupation that requires licensing. Thousands have. The visa process requires skills assessments not licensing. If you insist that you do, then you are the first person ever that has been in this situation.

I'm just baffled.Has the law changed or something? All the thousands of electricians and other tradies who all need licences, not to mentionnurses who need registration, get a skills assessment, then a visa, then travel to Australia and get a licence. Does this mean they all now need to get a licence first?

 

Surely if they have the skills assessment they can then get the licence on arrival - the way it has always worked?

[AJ]

A Real Estate Representative is just another name for a Property Manager, A Cert IV in Property Services should sort that out! Do they really need to sponsor Property Managers, they are ten a penny here, well maybe cos some of them not the brightest!

 

http://careercentre.dtwd.wa.gov.au/occupations/Pages/real-estate-representative.aspx

 

To work as a real estate representative in Western Australia, you must register with the Department of Commerce as a Real Estate and Business Sales Representative. To register, you must be over 18 years of age and provide proof of completion of a recognised sales representative registration course. You will also need to obtain a National Police Clearance. Contact the Department of Commerce for more information.

Related courses

 

 

 

• D222 - Certificate IV - Property Services (Real Estate)
  

 

thats in WA, am sure most states will be the same

[Nick UK]

Hi Nemisis, I agree it's odd. Perhaps for some occupations the mandatory licensing position is more flexible, I don't know. The whole position as clarified by DIBP makes no sense to me whatsoever, it's absurd to suggest I would risk flights, course fees etc to get a Licence prior to even applying for the VISA. But at the same time I have been told precisely this by DIBP in writing and over the phone so am left in my current predicament. I am sure there is a solution and perhaps if I do apply they will revert to say that once I gain my Licence they will approve the VISA, I don't know and it's a lot of money even to apply for the VISA until I know for sure they won't just refuse it because I don't have a licence. Maybe I am wrong but if that's the case then the person at DIBP who sent me the email is also wrong. See this section from their website which is extremely clear that a skills assessment is not enough on its own IF your chosen occupation requires licence or registration:

[h=3]Skills and qualifications (must hold at time of application)[/h]

 

• Evidence that your skills have been assessed as suitable by the relevant assessing authority for your occupation and this assessment was not obtained for the purposes of a subclass 485 visa as these types of skills assessments are not considered full skills assessments for permanent skilled migration purposes. A relevant skills assessment is different to being registered with an appropriate regulatory body.
  
• Your curriculum vitae (CV).
  
• Certified copies of all qualifications and work experience (for example, employment references).
  
• Registration, licensing or professional membership, if required for your occupation in the state or territory in which you will be working. Documents from the relevant Australian registration and licensing authorities that show you hold, or will be able to meet, necessary registration and licensing requirements. The documents must specify both of the following:
  
  • the type of registration or licensing held
    
  • the name and contact details for the registration or licensing authority.
    

   

   

 

 

On the 457 they allow you a grace period to gain your licence (I have this confirmed over email) but on the 186 as a PR they expect you to have everything in place at time of lodgement if your chosen occupation requires mandatory licence.

 

The whole experience is beyond exhausting and I think perhaps they don't really want people coming over on this occupation - maybe that is the reason.

[Nick UK]

Hi AJ,

 

The course required in SA is very easy and I can enrol while in the UK but in order to complete it I need to travel to Australia. I'm not worried about being able to successfully complete the course and get the Licence, I just don't want to spend thousands doing so before I know I have a VISA. That's the issue really

[AJ]

I really think they are giving you duff information. You do not need a licence to get a visa, you can get a visa by say doing a skills assessment for an electrician, then come over here and work as a bus driver or never work! It would be the same with your occupation.

[Nick UK]

I hope you are right, we've already had a nightmare with the 457 being refused because the company didn't show enough Labour Market Testing and potentially this oddity on the 186. Perhaps different skill level occupations have different requirement so what's true for an electrician may not be true for something else - maybe I'm just thinking aloud. Anyway I'm going to suggest we proceed on the 186 Sponsorship, then if that's accepted I will apply for the 186 and hope for the best. Perhaps write a letter showing my correspondence with REISA that I intend to enrol as soon as I arrive. I'll let you know how things go!

 

Thanks all for your time and input, I appreciate it.

[Suzukiscottie]

It has often been said here that DIBP are well known for giving out incorrect information. They are just machines who process applications against a given criteria. There is no come-back on any info they disperse, whereas a registered migration agent is fully responsible for any info they give out.

 

I would suggest you contact a registered MA. There are many who frequent these forums. Good luck.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Raul Senise]

Hi Nick,

 

Here is some input which may assist based on the basic information in your post:

 

 

· Labour Market Testing IS required for the occupation of Real Estate Agent under the subclass 457 program;

 

 

· Your comment about “not enough Labour Market Testing” seems strange however, as there is no minimum amount;

 

 

· The Regulations are however very strict on what documents are required and when they must be provided. I believe it is more likely that the Labour Market Testing documents were either not correct or provided too late;

 

 

· The issue of “Licencing” is very tricky when applying for a subclass 186 from off shore. In regards to Licencing, the Regulations do state “or is eligible to become”, however this needs to be carefully assessed on an individual basis and as such way beyond a public forum;

 

 

· The other issue you need to be careful about when applying for a subclass 186 under the Direct Entry pathway and not having previously worked for the company, is that the company can provide strong evidence that there is a need for the nominated role.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

[Raul Senise]

There is some confusion in regards to licencing on this thread.

 

For many visa types, such as a Subclass 189, licencing is not a requirement, irrespective of the occupation.

 

For others however, such as the subclass 186, it is a mandatory requirement for some occupations.

 

This can make it very difficult if applying under the Direct Entry pathway from offshore, as some licences require a physical presence in Australia.

 

As such, it can be a very tricky issue to navigate successfully.

[Nick UK]

Good point Suzukiscottie thank you

[Nick UK]

Raul, just read both your posts and thank you for your advice. Re the 457 Labour Market Testing, it is indeed a requirement. When I said 'not enough' I simply meant the Nomination failed due to the Labour Market Testing element so I presumed not enough evidence had been provided to satisfy DIBP. I have asked the company to gain some clarification from DIBP on this though.

 

I agree that the 'eligible to become' is my only hope re the 186 License matter given my experience and skills assessment plus a possible email from the Licensing body, I'm hopeful that some allowance will be given to either make the trip to become Licensed and the VISA to be subject to that or to do so once I arrive within a time frame. If not, then unless I choose to get Licensed before I apply (which I'm unlikely to risk doing given the cost), this VISA just isn't an option for me given my occupation.

 

Anyway, thank you all for your replies.