Ping Pong Oh Dear

[Madasacutsnake]

Hello,

 

Just thought I’d pop in and introduce myself and get opinions from people who really understand the dilemma of having lived in Oz and then returned to the UK.

 

We may be dreaded ping pongers!

 

Myself and family moved to Victoria on a 457 in 2009 as a family of 4 and returned to the beautiful Aberdeenshire countryside as a family of 5 in April of this year with PR. We spent 5 years in Geelong, Karratha WA and latterly Baldivis WA before making the move home. My children are aged 4, 9 & 11. We still have a house in Baldivis and one in the Geelong region, both are rented out and are fully managed, but they still require effort from this end. Now is not a good time to sell either and I see them both as 5-7 year investments at the very least. All our savings are really tied up in there until that 5-7 period is up. Possibly not our smartest financial move but hey ho not point in losing sleep over it……….oh wait I do most nights.

We are renting in a stunning part of Scotland there is no other way to describe Deeside, can’t imagine it’s easy to beat in broad terms on a UK basis. The kids have settled in well at school and have made loads of fab mates in the local village, school seems to have been a smooth transition for them. My family and friends are close by and my wife’s are a few hours away, all in all things are pretty decent. I’m contracting for an old employer and there is plenty of opportunity in my field locally to progress and or maintain my current arrangement.

What’s the dilemma then, well it would appear that we would need circa 100k deposit to get on the market here, which will require a massive sacrifice to achieve. With all of this looming in the background it does start to make you wonder if it’s all worthwhile. As it stands we could move back to Perth probably land a job before setting off from the UK and put the kids back into the school they left albeit with a timeline of Aug-October next year. Our two eldest are still in contact with their old schoolmates in Baldivis etc. I’m just questioning if we came back for the right reasons and will we be able to settle in the long run. I think a large part of why we came back was driven by guilt and perhaps a wanderlust for what we could have in Aberdeenshire. The reality does bite quickly and we have made choices through the years regarding property that mean we require a fair amount of patience to get to where we want to be.

 

I’m spilling my thoughts out here as I need to get perspective from impartial parties, my wife and I have a habit of embarking on adventures too easily. The cold hard facts are that if we stay in Aberdeenshire it’s until the kids are through their education and if we do return to WA the same applies.

 

All feedback gratefully received.

[Quoll]

So, it's just the need to be on the property ladder that would drive you back? Lots of people actually choose to rent and it's not like you don't have savings which will see you back in the market but just not now. Unless you are particularly driven to return I wouldn't bother.

[caramac]

I agree with Quoll. What are your reasons for wanting to return? I don't think it's a good move if it's just to be able to live in your own house. I think you have to really want to live in Australia to be able to survive the inevitable ups and downs of emigrating.

 

We're in the position of long term renting atm because we're only living in this area for a few years and didn't want to give the govt any more money in tax! We worked out that the amount we'd have to pay in stamp duty would be way more than any potential profit we got from buying. We're in a similar position in that we have a house in the SE which we're renting out and will sell when we move again in a couple of years time. It'll give us a very healthy deposit to put down then. Could you do that? Keep your Australian houses going for now until you can sell, then buy something you really like then?

I know some people hate renting and I completely understand that, but if you love the area you're living in and are otherwise happy I think I'd be tempted to make that my compromise.

If, however, you have a really strong pull back to Australia because you want to live there, then I'd probably go.

Can you take the housing question out and ask yourselves where you'd rather live?

We're having a similar dilemma at the moment and I know how hard it is! Good luck!

[starlight7]

I'd stay put if it was me- you say you are happy, have everything you want, why rock the boat? Sell one of your houses in Australia and use it for a deposit. Money isn't everything, who cares if you lose a bit?

[flag of convenience]

Looks like WA housing is heading for a decline anyway. Question being by how much.

[TerryDXB]

Interesting dilemma – I can empathise with the investments being tied up but seems you are relying (gambling) on things turning round over the next 5-7 years before you realize those investments – what happens if there is a further downturn, with things getting worse for the Oz housing market?

As well as cancelling several large projects Woodside (a bellweather for WA economy) announced in June that they are cutting 20% of their workforce – I’m not sure that the other large LNG projects are going smoothly, with cost and time over-runs. The demand for iron ore is not as high as it was a few years back so that will depress the market even further.

It’s just my view, but I think the recent good times for Oz, in particular WA, have passed for now, possibly not to return for quite a while. I know you said you can get a job back in Perth, but what’s the guarantee that you would still have a job 2 years from now?

The UK isn’t perfect, but it does seem to be pulling through the worst of the recent hard times and it seems there is some optimism for the future. If you’ve got a half decent job in the UK, and your family are settled and happy back here, I think I’d be tempted to stay for now.

[Nikey]

Sell up in oz and stay here....it's a no brainer

[Madasacutsnake]

Thanks for all the replies folks they are considered and full of relevant comment and opinion.

 

It certainly helps to get input from people that don't have any emotional investment in our lives and can see through any superficial worries.

 

I feel it gives us more questions though about what is needed to make us feel comfortable with life in the UK moving forward. Money is far from the be all and end all in this life and it's important to keep perspective on what really matters in life, although it can't be completely dismissed as it's kinda essential under the current system. In terms of the WA economy I agree it's not what it was for mining but maintenance Oil & Gas work still seems to be plentiful in my field. Housing wise the point made by Terry DBX is a good one as there is no guarantee that the WA market will pick up and take off again, best to take it easy on that front and rent them for another year then reassess?

 

 

 

I like the idea of taking the finances out of it all and coming to decision on whats best for us as a family and also what feels right. I do still feel a pull to Australia as it's a great place to live in so many ways but I must acknowledge to myself that there is a reason we are back home.

 

I think perhaps reading back on my first post it seems like my view point is driven by cash however that's poor articulation on my part. I suppose there is a bit of everything in there, honeymoon has worn off reality etc.

 

I'll keep mulling it over.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Johnny Kash]

have you considered hedging your bets and selling one of your Oz properties - exchange rate would still favour you in historical terms and free up some cash for property in the UK? Still keeping a hand in AUS with the one property.

 

If you released those AUD now it would still go a long way back home with current rates.

 

Nothing wrong with having investments in two countries IMO.

 

On a personal level, I can relate as Ive lived in Aberdeenshire myself many years (near Inverurie) and know how good the life is there - I think I commented on one of your threads a year or two back?. I also read the cost of living has rocketed a fair whack in the North East, maybe that's come as a bit of a shock?

[Madasacutsnake]

have you considered hedging your bets and selling one of your Oz properties - exchange rate would still favour you in historical terms and free up some cash for property in the UK? Still keeping a hand in AUS with the one property.

 

If you released those AUD now it would still go a long way back home with current rates.

 

Nothing wrong with having investments in two countries IMO.

 

On a personal level, I can relate as Ive lived in Aberdeenshire myself many years (near Inverurie) and know how good the life is there - I think I commented on one of your threads a year or two back?. I also read the cost of living has rocketed a fair whack in the North East, maybe that's come as a bit of a shock?

 

Thanks for the input JK.

 

I remember we exchanged some banter a while back, how's all going for you will you stay or does the lure of coming back seem inevitable?

 

I think it's fair to say the cost of living and also what property actually sells for not the offers over price has risen astronomically since we made the decision to return. For example the local rag is suggesting that property in Aberdeen & the shire is rising at £5000 per month on average. With a + 20% increase expected for the year and people regularly offering 15-20% over the asking price for a home. It's a crazy situation and with what I can see as steady period for Oil & Gas with the odd boom thrown in, it's unlikely to abate much in the near future.

 

I think we will hang onto our property and reassess along with the big move or not decision around April, we may look to sell one or both.

 

Cheers

[Johnny Kash]

Thanks for the input JK.

 

I remember we exchanged some banter a while back, how's all going for you will you stay or does the lure of coming back seem inevitable?

 

I think it's fair to say the cost of living and also what property actually sells for not the offers over price has risen astronomically since we made the decision to return. For example the local rag is suggesting that property in Aberdeen & the shire is rising at £5000 per month on average. With a + 20% increase expected for the year and people regularly offering 15-20% over the asking price for a home. It's a crazy situation and with what I can see as steady period for Oil & Gas with the odd boom thrown in, it's unlikely to abate much in the near future.

 

I think we will hang onto our property and reassess along with the big move or not decision around April, we may look to sell one or both.

 

Cheers

 

Fit Like CutSnake Min! :biglaugh:

 

Wise for you to bide your time a bit until coming to such a big decision. You had your reasons for moving back and sounds like you made the right move but, in 'curse of the Ex-Pat' style, are somehow unsettled. This crops up a lot on this board so hardly surprising and will no doubt happen to myself if/when we go back to UK (see what I mean!).

 

For us, we are at the 3 year mark and thinking citizenship and then back to UK. Either Edinburgh or NE Scotland. Like yourself I worry that Im seeing things through the rose tints. My memories of Aberdeenshire are glorious countryside, Northern Lights, long summer nights playing golf and the dry wit and banter with the locals. Don't seem to remember the grey, windswept winter days on Union St as much somehow!!

 

Sounds like you have good employment prospects in either country. If you didn't have those properties in WA would you be in the main happy and settled back in the North East? If so I would seriously consider selling one or both in Aus and set yourselves up for the long term back 'home'. Easy for me to say from here I know.

 

Will watch out for how things pan out for you, best of luck with your decision. Cheers

[beach pig]

I wish I had your dilemma, I am looking at going back after 6yrs here with about 40 large.and we are a family of five.i think it all comes down to where you are most happy.for us money does not come into the equation of where we would like to spend the rest of or days.

[Madasacutsnake]

Fit Like CutSnake Min! :biglaugh:

 

Wise for you to bide your time a bit until coming to such a big decision. You had your reasons for moving back and sounds like you made the right move but, in 'curse of the Ex-Pat' style, are somehow unsettled. This crops up a lot on this board so hardly surprising and will no doubt happen to myself if/when we go back to UK (see what I mean!).

 

For us, we are at the 3 year mark and thinking citizenship and then back to UK. Either Edinburgh or NE Scotland. Like yourself I worry that Im seeing things through the rose tints. My memories of Aberdeenshire are glorious countryside, Northern Lights, long summer nights playing golf and the dry wit and banter with the locals. Don't seem to remember the grey, windswept winter days on Union St as much somehow!!

 

Sounds like you have good employment prospects in either country. If you didn't have those properties in WA would you be in the main happy and settled back in the North East? If so I would seriously consider selling one or both in Aus and set yourselves up for the long term back 'home'. Easy for me to say from here I know.

 

Will watch out for how things pan out for you, best of luck with your decision. Cheers

 

Taking the good advice offered so far on board and not panicking into a change too quickly. We are sweating a bit on getting both properties re-rented in October as quickly as possible. The agent has said that rentals are moving OK in WA again not as bad as it was when we moved back, time will tell.

 

Sounds like you have given the possibility of move home some real thought, I like the comment about windswept days on Union a grey street. The shire is still an amazing place full of natural beauty no doubt, the folk are generally decent and of a diverse background. The dry sense of humor is most welcome and something I missed whilst away. Edinburgh is still a stunning city, we plan to take the kids and do the new museum and a few of the sights before the weather turns into winter at the start of September!

 

I have asked myself the question without considering finances and I'm torn so that's good in a way, it means I like the possibility of Oz regardless of cash etc.

 

Cheers

[Madasacutsnake]

I wish I had your dilemma, I am looking at going back after 6yrs here with about 40 large.and we are a family of five.i think it all comes down to where you are most happy.for us money does not come into the equation of where we would like to spend the rest of or days.

 

Fair comment Beach Pig, we won't raise a huge amount of cash out of a sale of both properties once taxes and fees are paid. Hence our reason for hanging in with both whether we live in one or hold them as medium term investments.

 

I agree though it's a good position to be in albeit a bit stressful at times.

 

Good luck with your move whatever you decide.

[beach pig]

Fair comment Beach Pig, we won't raise a huge amount of cash out of a sale of both properties once taxes and fees are paid. Hence our reason for hanging in with both whether we live in one or hold them as medium term investments.

 

I agree though it's a good position to be in albeit a bit stressful at times.

 

Good luck with your move whatever you decide.

 

well for that very reason you well may be better keeping the status quo but who knows what prices are gonna be like in seven years here with all the doom and gloom. All I can say is do what you feel is right remember 2007 when the banks in the uk said everything was good lol.i had a premunition then.sold our house then moved oz.sold our house here 2yrs ago because if I did not the bank would of took it due to no work here.thankfully I have work but it does not change our mind of moving back

[beach pig]

Good luck with which ever path you choose mate

[Chortlepuss]

It's not an easy decision. Another thing to factor in is exchange rate - If you sold one of your Oz properties then you could cushion yourself against a potential sterling rise/dollar drop. It's so hard to know what to do - I am even considering buying a property in Oz to keep for a few years and rent after we return to UK but only because renting here (Brisbane) is so damn stressful. Prices are way high and people are losing their jobs here - a friend was told at the car auction that there are 300 car repo's per week in Brisbane - all points to a downwards trend in housing prices... whilst UK house prices are on the rise...wish we had crystal balls!

[Madasacutsnake]

OK so the first morning frost of the year came and went and the day has turned into a cracker, the drive to work through the countryside was amazing!

 

In other news the wife has major unsettled feelings today and is struggling to picture a long term life in Jockland, funny how it comes and goes that way. I reckon it's the curse of an expat once you start moving it's hard to stay put. I've been feeling a lot more positive about the whole being home thing since venting my feelings on here.

 

Still taking it day by day and enjoying the small things about being home.

[Madasacutsnake]

It's not an easy decision. Another thing to factor in is exchange rate - If you sold one of your Oz properties then you could cushion yourself against a potential sterling rise/dollar drop. It's so hard to know what to do - I am even considering buying a property in Oz to keep for a few years and rent after we return to UK but only because renting here (Brisbane) is so damn stressful. Prices are way high and people are losing their jobs here - a friend was told at the car auction that there are 300 car repo's per week in Brisbane - all points to a downwards trend in housing prices... whilst UK house prices are on the rise...wish we had crystal balls!

 

Are things really bad in Brissy?

 

I suppose the economic growth experienced by Australia over the last 5-10 years had stop slow at some point.

 

I think UK house prizes are rising fast but it seems to be built on the same type of asset bubble as last time with inflation leaving wages well behind, I'm far from convinced by the recovery outside of the SE and the little bubble up here in Aberdeen.

 

Time will tell.

[flag of convenience]

It's not an easy decision. Another thing to factor in is exchange rate - If you sold one of your Oz properties then you could cushion yourself against a potential sterling rise/dollar drop. It's so hard to know what to do - I am even considering buying a property in Oz to keep for a few years and rent after we return to UK but only because renting here (Brisbane) is so damn stressful. Prices are way high and people are losing their jobs here - a friend was told at the car auction that there are 300 car repo's per week in Brisbane - all points to a downwards trend in housing prices... whilst UK house prices are on the rise...wish we had crystal balls!

 

Not forgetting the high tax you'll be paying on property here if taxed as permanent overseas resident. Hardly makes it worth it. Especially after considering other costs as well as possible property price corrections.

[MARYROSE02]

Perhaps, you should look at your situation as one of 'two right decisions' rather than 'right or wrong?' You sound like you are reasonably settled back in Scotland? Why did you decide to return? I see you came back in April, so you have had the two best seasons to be in Scotland? See you how you cope with autumn and winter there? I went back to England for twelve years, and coped OK with the winters, but I do know people who find it hard. I was talking to a bloke just the other day, asking him why he liked it in Sydney, and he said that it was the weather here, he and particularly his wife, hating the endless grey days.

 

You seem to work in an area where you can always get a job. Is the WA economy heading for a fall? I don't know. What if Scotland votes for independence? What will happen then? With investments like homes (and shares) you generally do so for the long term, hopefully riding out the lows. Wait a while before you think of selling up in OZ, maybe sell one and keep the other? I have homes in both countries, renting each of them out whilst I was in the other country.

 

I think you said you have permanent residence in Australia? So you can come back if you want to. Would it affect your kids' schooling so much if you all come back to OZ in a year or two? At thirteen, even the oldest would still have most of their high school years in front of them?

 

Remember, there is no right or wrong, just two rights!

[MARYROSE02]

Not forgetting the high tax you'll be paying on property here if taxed as permanent overseas resident. Hardly makes it worth it. Especially after considering other costs as well as possible property price corrections.

 

Do you pay high(er) taxes on property if you are a permanent overseas resident? I thought there was a 'double taxation' agreement to ensure that you don't pay taxes twice on the same income in both countries.

 

I don't remember being taxed onerously on my Aussie property when I lived in the UK, and neither does it happen on my UK property now I am in Australia? I seem to get most of my UK tax back on my property - NRL tax? I've just got around to sending the form back to HMRC after nearly five years, to get my rent paid free of UK tax?

 

If they are still paying mortgages on the Aussie property, I guess they might be taking advantage of 'negative gearing' too?

[lebourvellec]

You didn't get citizenship, so visa wise you may not have the option to wait till all your children finish school, if going back is your plan. Once your PR expires you need 2 years residency in last 5 years to be eligible for 5 year RRV.

[Madasacutsnake]

Perhaps, you should look at your situation as one of 'two right decisions' rather than 'right or wrong?' You sound like you are reasonably settled back in Scotland? Why did you decide to return? I see you came back in April, so you have had the two best seasons to be in Scotland? See you how you cope with autumn and winter there? I went back to England for twelve years, and coped OK with the winters, but I do know people who find it hard. I was talking to a bloke just the other day, asking him why he liked it in Sydney, and he said that it was the weather here, he and particularly his wife, hating the endless grey days.

 

You seem to work in an area where you can always get a job. Is the WA economy heading for a fall? I don't know. What if Scotland votes for independence? What will happen then? With investments like homes (and shares) you generally do so for the long term, hopefully riding out the lows. Wait a while before you think of selling up in OZ, maybe sell one and keep the other? I have homes in both countries, renting each of them out whilst I was in the other country.

 

I think you said you have permanent residence in Australia? So you can come back if you want to. Would it affect your kids' schooling so much if you all come back to OZ in a year or two? At thirteen, even the oldest would still have most of their high school years in front of them?

 

Remember, there is no right or wrong, just two rights!

 

 

Thanks for the advice, seems like you have wrestled with similar issues in the past?

 

We came back as we had that nagging feeling we should, perhaps guilt is a large part of it, we also love the UK and Europe.

 

I like the two rights approach as I think you are correct, choosing between one developed country and another is not a hardship it's a privilege.

 

If Scotland goes Indy I see very little difference to my circumstances so it doesn't really come into my thinking in this instance.

 

I think our practical timeline to decide would place us returning to Oz around Oct-Dec 2015.

 

Cheers

[Madasacutsnake]

You didn't get citizenship, so visa wise you may not have the option to wait till all your children finish school, if going back is your plan. Once your PR expires you need 2 years residency in last 5 years to be eligible for 5 year RRV.

 

Nope no citizenship, we have until 2017 then our PR is out.