Realistic advice on Sydney

thank you for your reply. It's good to read. We are definitely not doing this for the money as we earn ok here and have a house whereas we know we'd possibly not ever own a house there and will be living in a small apartment for a long time. I'd never work as a solicitor again either I doubt so would earn less. It's hard to explain why we want to go. Quality of life? The time we get together as a family is scarce and maybe we want that little time to count more? So beaches, outdoor living etc? And I know Sydney has seasons and gets cold too but when you come from Wales and it's never nice and summer weekend plans get cancelled due to poor weather all the time. We spend thousands and thousands on holidays just to have time by the sea in the sun and spend so much money trying to keep our daughter entertained over school holidays and weekends. There's very little to do where we live. We all crave an adventure. It might be hard but life is short right? I'd love my daughter to see more of the world, go to a school with international students. There are lots of reasons. Thank you again

Sounds like you're doing it for the 'right' reasons - we spend more time together as a family (partly as a consequence of not knowing many outer people and partly out of choice!) and get out more but it isn't all sun and sandy beaches! Every weekend in the summer we goto different beaches and parks, sometimes they are almost empty as its 'only' mid 20's!!

Good luck with your final choice!

Just wanted to add my perspective, having moved to the North Shore 2 years ago with a wife and 3 kids from Milton Keynes in the UK. We are currently considering returning to the UK in January for reasons I won't go into here.

Due to the large volume of low density housing, it is now all very expensive to buy. We've found that most of the people that emigrated here 5-10 years ago could afford to buy; those that arrive <5 years ago can barely afford to rent, including us. We have a combined salary of $160k, we pay $1000 in rent per week so that we can live near a train line to commute into Sydney. You can get cheaper places but you would be commuting for over an hour, possibly by Bus (e.g. North West Sydney or the Northern Beaches).

My wife is a teacher and despises the education system. We have 6, 8 and 10 year children, the youngest are doing well but the eldest is struggling big time (more than in the UK). Depending on your aspirations, how many Universities can you name in the UK and how many can you name in Australia? Also bare in mind that if you come out with a 457 visa you need to pay $5000 per year per child for public (not private) education. However, some schools (ours included) also ask for a 'voluntary' contribution each term!

Yes the lifestyle is better, its rains a lot less and there are the beaches etc. However, if you think the beaches are a good idea for the weekend, you can guarantee the rest of Sydney is thinking the same! Our kids have ended up hating the beach (sunscreen, hot, tired, thirsty etc). The roads are not great in Sydney so traffic jams are aplenty. Trains are exceptionally slow and stop everywhere (the train system is more like the London Overground) and the only one that goes near a beach is Cronulla to the south.

One thing people don't consider in Sydney is the humidity - not as bad as Singapore but stifling. The expensive properties (rent or buy) are on the coast, as the sea breeze keeps the places comfortable. As you move further inland (Paramatta say) humidity and temperature rises and so the cost of housing goes down (surprise surprise). If houses have air con, electricity bills can be astronomical (the air con can be used in winter to heat the house). If they don't have air con, they typically have damp or dry rot but cheaper electricity bills. The poor housing results in Winters being far more depressing than the UK. There is nothing worse after a cold day than coming back to a cold house.

So apologies for being a bit gloom and doom, but felt my opinion may come in useful.

Just wanted to add my perspective, having moved to the North Shore 2 years ago with a wife and 3 kids from Milton Keynes in the UK. We are currently considering returning to the UK in January for reasons I won't go into here.

 

Due to the large volume of low density housing, it is now all very expensive to buy. We've found that most of the people that emigrated here 5-10 years ago could afford to buy; those that arrive <5 years ago can barely afford to rent, including us. We have a combined salary of $160k, we pay $1000 in rent per week so that we can live near a train line to commute into Sydney. You can get cheaper places but you would be commuting for over an hour, possibly by Bus (e.g. North West Sydney or the Northern Beaches).

 

My wife is a teacher and despises the education system. We have 6, 8 and 10 year children, the youngest are doing well but the eldest is struggling big time (more than in the UK). Depending on your aspirations, how many Universities can you name in the UK and how many can you name in Australia? Also bare in mind that if you come out with a 457 visa you need to pay $5000 per year per child for public (not private) education. However, some schools (ours included) also ask for a 'voluntary' contribution each term!

 

Yes the lifestyle is better, its rains a lot less and there are the beaches etc. However, if you think the beaches are a good idea for the weekend, you can guarantee the rest of Sydney is thinking the same! Our kids have ended up hating the beach (sunscreen, hot, tired, thirsty etc). The roads are not great in Sydney so traffic jams are aplenty. Trains are exceptionally slow and stop everywhere (the train system is more like the London Overground) and the only one that goes near a beach is Cronulla to the south.

 

One thing people don't consider in Sydney is the humidity - not as bad as Singapore but stifling. The expensive properties (rent or buy) are on the coast, as the sea breeze keeps the places comfortable. As you move further inland (Paramatta say) humidity and temperature rises and so the cost of housing goes down (surprise surprise). If houses have air con, electricity bills can be astronomical (the air con can be used in winter to heat the house). If they don't have air con, they typically have damp or dry rot but cheaper electricity bills. The poor housing results in Winters being far more depressing than the UK. There is nothing worse after a cold day than coming back to a cold house.

 

So apologies for being a bit gloom and doom, but felt my opinion may come in useful.

I do agree with a lot you said. Sydney is a VERY expensive place to live and far too crowded for my liking. I have friends in the suburbs of Liverpool and Penrith and the heat there in the summer is horrid and it's also colder there in the winter. We were lucky that my husband fixed our house up so it was very comfortable to live in but I know what you mean about a lot of the houses. Some of them even have mould on the walls!! :elvis: Can't say I had any complaints about my two sons' education and they both went to Sydney Uni and now have very good jobs.

Sorry it didn't work out for you and your family and good luck if you do decide to move back to the UK.

Thanks both for your views. I have received such a mixed bag of advice. Apart from one or two most on this thread have been very negative which has been disheartening to hear however I appreciate people's honesty. I do wonder, if Australia in terms of education, work hours etc isn't what it's made out to be for many UK migrants why so many still go? On the other hand I have spoken with a few friends who live in Australia now and they love it and would never come back, two friends who live in Sydney and two who live elsewhere in Australia. But clearly there's a reason you all feel the way you do too so it must have many down sides too. I have to say we are more confused than ever ... ☹️

Thanks both for your views. I have received such a mixed bag of advice. Apart from one or two most on this thread have been very negative which has been disheartening to hear however I appreciate people's honesty. I do wonder, if Australia in terms of education, work hours etc isn't what it's made out to be for many UK migrants why so many still go? On the other hand I have spoken with a few friends who live in Australia now and they love it and would never come back, two friends who live in Sydney and two who live elsewhere in Australia. But clearly there's a reason you all feel the way you do too so it must have many down sides too. I have to say we are more confused than ever ... ☹️

I have just looked through to see who posted and you have a mixture of people living in Australia and UK and I do not think you got replies from any of the known "anti-Australia" thinking posters. I think the issue is simply that you have asked for realistic advice on living in *Sydney* and the fact is, it is a very unaffordable city for most people. You said you wanted realistic and I think your replies have been that.

My own replies on here have been to caution against Sydney. Not because I don't like Sydney, I think it is a fantastic city and easily my favourite in Australia. But I think that chances of making a success of the move will be higher in a less expensive location. I think you shouldn't be too swayed by one job offer as there will be jobs elsewhere and your skills are portable. My own experience is that we ultimately left Sydney because we were not able to work anywhere else due to niche occupation for my OH and we could only see years ahead with huge financial burden of either high rents or huge mortgage. So really just trying to caution you so that you could hopefully avoid what hapened to us.

I have just looked through to see who posted and you have a mixture of people living in Australia and UK and I do not think you got replies from any of the known "anti-Australia" thinking posters. I think the issue is simply that you have asked for realistic advice on living in *Sydney* and the fact is, it is a very unaffordable city for most people. You said you wanted realistic and I think your replies have been that.

 

My own replies on here have been to caution against Sydney. Not because I don't like Sydney, I think it is a fantastic city and easily my favourite in Australia. But I think that chances of making a success of the move will be higher in a less expensive location. I think you shouldn't be too swayed by one job offer as there will be jobs elsewhere and your skills are portable. My own experience is that we ultimately left Sydney because we were not able to work anywhere else due to niche occupation for my OH and we could only see years ahead with huge financial burden of either high rents or huge mortgage. So really just trying to caution you so that you could hopefully avoid what hapened to us.

Thanks Bungo and I do appreciate everyone's honesty and views and it is indeed what I asked for when I started the thread. I guess I perhaps wasn't expecting it? My husband would go self employed sub contracting I expect as he can earn more. It's not so much the job offer we were fixed on as he might not even work for that company, but more that there did seem to be a lot of work for carpenters in Sydney so we felt he had a good chance of work there. Whereas other parts of Australia we weren't so sure about his employment prospects

Thanks Bungo and I do appreciate everyone's honesty and views and it is indeed what I asked for when I started the thread. I guess I perhaps wasn't expecting it? My husband would go self employed sub contracting I expect as he can earn more. It's not so much the job offer we were fixed on as he might not even work for that company, but more that there did seem to be a lot of work for carpenters in Sydney so we felt he had a good chance of work there. Whereas other parts of Australia we weren't so sure about his employment prospects

I am sure that he would be fine anywhere in Australia. Anywhere populated I mean, tends to have a need for carpenters. I think you no more need to be in Sydney to work as a carpenter in Australia as you need to be in London to work as a carpenter in UK.

I do wonder, if Australia in terms of education, work hours etc isn't what it's made out to be for many UK migrants why so many still go? On the other hand I have spoken with a few friends who live in Australia now and they love it and would never come back, two friends who live in Sydney and two who live elsewhere in Australia. But clearly there's a reason you all feel the way you do too so it must have many down sides too. I have to say we are more confused than ever ... ☹️

Yes lots of people still come to Australia, but did you know that about half of them end up going home again? And remember, every one of those people went to all the trouble and expense of migrating, so they must've been convinced it was going to be worthwhile when they went. So I think it's good that you're confused, because it means you're realising that it's not as straightforward as you originally thought.

Yes a lot of us emphasise the negatives but that's because we know you (and others like you) are arriving on these forums with a picture of Australia that's unrealistically positive. We don't need to tell you the good stuff because that's already in your head.

Australia is just another country - if you look at living in America, Canada, France, Norway, every country has good aspects and bad aspects. Nowhere is perfect, it's just a case of finding a balance of good and bad that you can live with!

You may think I've sounded negative about Australia but for me, the balance works out in Australia's favour (and I'm another one who would love to live in Sydney, if only I could afford it but I can't). For my husband, the balance works out in favour of Italy - I'm just lucky he's hesitant about settling there because he doesn't speak the language, so we haven't had to come to blows over it! There are many other members of these forums who've tried Australia and discovered that the balance for them works out in favour of England or Scotland.

You've really got to make your own decision but you need the information to be able to do that, which I know is hard to get when you're thousands of miles away.

And I'd second the view that as a carpenter, your husband would stand a good chance of getting work in other parts of Australia. I believe there's a fair demand in Brisbane at the moment - miles more affordable, shorter commute.

Thanks both for your views. I have received such a mixed bag of advice. Apart from one or two most on this thread have been very negative which has been disheartening to hear however I appreciate people's honesty. I do wonder, if Australia in terms of education, work hours etc isn't what it's made out to be for many UK migrants why so many still go? On the other hand I have spoken with a few friends who live in Australia now and they love it and would never come back, two friends who live in Sydney and two who live elsewhere in Australia. But clearly there's a reason you all feel the way you do too so it must have many down sides too. I have to say we are more confused than ever ... ☹️

Yes it is confusing but over the years I've lived in Australia (nearly 35 years) I've known families who fitted in almost from the word go and others who have given it a couple of years - some a few years more than that and really never felt settled so moved back to the UK and never looked back. Also know a couple of ping-pongers who never seem settled no matter where they live. It's hard to know just how you will feel.

On the other hand I have spoken with a few friends who live in Australia now and they love it and would never come back, two friends who live in Sydney and two who live elsewhere in Australia.

Knowing your friends - their lifestyles, expectations, maybe an idea of their incomes? - and how similar they are to yours should give you some indication of how you might fit in. No one can know for sure, of course: many are surprised by what they took for granted and didn't realise they would miss, particularly family and friends. Sydney is a particular problem, for reasons explained: there are many Australians who can no longer afford to live there.

Presumably your friends who love it are coping well financially?

Why do you think life will be better over here, weather, beaches, lifestyle, cost of living, bigger house with the pool? The grass is not always greener, just different.

Coming from one of the cheapest parts of the UK to the most expensive city in Australia(and one off in the world), it will be a shock. As for the equity you mention on your property, most of that will be eaten up if you do not have a good savings fund behind you with the move. Getting on the housing market in Sydney, I suspect you would struggle, unless some major correction happens in the near future as you have very little equity on your current property which I believe you would use to fund the move.

Would you consider renting your place out in the UK, as a buffer, in case things do not pan out. Could you afford to do this, based on your posts I suspect not.

If your hubby has a job lined up, would they consider sponsoring him on a 457 visa. This would greatly reduce your costs, but downside means he is tied with the company for a good number of years.

Would you be funding this move including shipping of any goods yourself?

Yes lots of people still come to Australia, but did you know that about half of them end up going home again? And remember, every one of those people went to all the trouble and expense of migrating, so they must've been convinced it was going to be worthwhile when they went. So I think it's good that you're confused, because it means you're realising that it's not as straightforward as you originally thought.

 

Yes a lot of us emphasise the negatives but that's because we know you (and others like you) are arriving on these forums with a picture of Australia that's unrealistically positive. We don't need to tell you the good stuff because that's already in your head.

 

Australia is just another country - if you look at living in America, Canada, France, Norway, every country has good aspects and bad aspects. Nowhere is perfect, it's just a case of finding a balance of good and bad that you can live with!

 

You may think I've sounded negative about Australia but for me, the balance works out in Australia's favour (and I'm another one who would love to live in Sydney, if only I could afford it but I can't). For my husband, the balance works out in favour of Italy - I'm just lucky he's hesitant about settling there because he doesn't speak the language, so we haven't had to come to blows over it! There are many other members of these forums who've tried Australia and discovered that the balance for them works out in favour of England or Scotland.

 

You've really got to make your own decision but you need the information to be able to do that, which I know is hard to get when you're thousands of miles away.

 

And I'd second the view that as a carpenter, your husband would stand a good chance of getting work in other parts of Australia. I believe there's a fair demand in Brisbane at the moment - miles more affordable, shorter commute.

Thanks Marisa I do appreciate the time you've taken to replying I agree it's best we have all the information including the negatives to avoid making an unwise decision. I'm certainly going to give some thought to Brisbane instead then as it might offer more of what we want for less cost. I don't know a lot about the suburbs in Brisbane but an old work colleague lives in Caloundra and my sister has a friend who lives in Brisbane so I'll make enquiries

Knowing your friends - their lifestyles, expectations, maybe an idea of their incomes? - and how similar they are to yours should give you some indication of how you might fit in. No one can know for sure, of course: many are surprised by what they took for granted and didn't realise they would miss, particularly family and friends. Sydney is a particular problem, for reasons explained: there are many Australians who can no longer afford to live there.

Presumably your friends who love it are coping well financially?

their situations are different, my friend who lives in Cronulla does not have children so less responsibility and my friend in Manly does have a family but her husband had a very well paid job. My husbands friend did many years in Sydney but has settled with his family in Newcastle and wouldn't go back to the busy city of Sydney. So it has been difficult to get a comparison with what our life would be like

We are going to look into Brisbane. A few hours online has shown plenty of work for carpenters there. My sister is going to put us in touch with her friend who lives there with a family. I'll post a new thread on the Qld page to get some info so apologies if you see my name pop up again with similar questions. Thank you all again for replying and taking the time to help

We are going to look into Brisbane. A few hours online has shown plenty of work for carpenters there. My sister is going to put us in touch with her friend who lives there with a family.

I would be hugely less worried about you if you're going to Brisbane! Just for comparison, the median house price in Sydney is $1 million. The median house price in Brisbane is $500,000.

I would be hugely less worried about you if you're going to Brisbane! Just for comparison, the median house price in Sydney is $1 million. The median house price in Brisbane is $500,000.

Brisbane median house price is now $632,000 quite a big jump recently as becoming more popular, still obviously cheaper than Sydney.

their situations are different, my friend who lives in Cronulla does not have children so less responsibility and my friend in Manly does have a family but her husband had a very well paid job. My husbands friend did many years in Sydney but has settled with his family in Newcastle and wouldn't go back to the busy city of Sydney. So it has been difficult to get a comparison with what our life would be like

Yes very different. Also I was thinking, most people would have been under the impression we "loved it" in Sydney and do you know what, we did. But we still could not see an end to renting without the burden of a huge mortgage and absolute necessity of two large salaries coming in. By comparison in UK we are mortgage free in South East England and can easily manage on one salary. I expect your friend moved because of cost not because of busy-ness, many Sydney suburbs are extremely quiet.

We are going to look into Brisbane. A few hours online has shown plenty of work for carpenters there. My sister is going to put us in touch with her friend who lives there with a family. I'll post a new thread on the Qld page to get some info so apologies if you see my name pop up again with similar questions. Thank you all again for replying and taking the time to help

Sounds like a much more sensible plan.

Yes lots of people still come to Australia, but did you know that about half of them end up going home again? .

Do you have a source for this? Just interested - the only figures i can find are on the border website, and dont have any departure figures for the latest year. Their 10 year historical trend shows between 30 and 40% returning to the UK comparing to coming in. Of course this doesnt take into account visa type / demographics etc ie did they leave because of whv/temp visa expired or couldnt get another job, or they wanted to retire in the UK, or permanent migrants that couldn't make it work.

Just interested in what figures are out there.

Do you have a source for this? Just interested - the only figures i can find are on the border website, and dont have any departure figures for the latest year. Their 10 year historical trend shows between 30 and 40% returning to the UK comparing to coming in.

I can't direct you to any sources. I've heard the "about half" figure quoted several times on Wanted Down Under, and I wouldn't expect them to exaggerate that figure since they're trying to glamourise migration, if anything. I also saw it in an article in one of the tabloids last year, where it was 50% of recent migrants, but I can't find it now.

As others have said, things have changed in the last 5-6 years with (a) the mining boom ending and (b) house prices flying upwards again, so new migrants are more likely to find life in some parts of Australia financially challenging.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/11723866/Is-the-sun-setting-on-the-Australian-dream.html

Their 10 year historical trend shows between 30 and 40% returning to the UK comparing to coming in.

Those figures relate to UK residents leaving Australia. Somewhere I saw official figures showing only 57% of these as returning to the UK - so 43% moving to a third country. This number obviously includes those who are moving for career/professional reasons, often at the behest of their employer.