Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 having a plan b - i.e. knowing local employment market to change sponsors should you not like the job or are being treated unfairly. something i did not do - im only mid twenties and was naive - i am very aware of that looking back objectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebloggs Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 janine - indeed yet there are families going through the process now of applying for a 457 - all the people who sing and dance about it are enjoying it in the present - yes we do only have now to enjoy the moment but i felt gutted when i lost my job on a 457 - gutted, but fortunately i did not have a wife, kids and heaps of overheads that come along with them I was on 457 myself for 3 years after coming to Oz on a WHV, at the time I wasn't to obsessed with PR as I was free, single and enjoying myself. Once I had decided that I was going to stay I lodged my 175 in Oct 2008, had to switch to ENS 856 due to the changes in Dec 2008 and received my PR in May 2009. I would consider my own journey a success story but equally some people will just as easily fail. If I had to do a 457 again with a wife & family I just wouldn't do it, goalpost's move, circumstances change and unforeseen issues can arise. A 457 is no guarantee to getting PR but is a good stepping stone at best, its probably best suited for young people. In saying that I think that the government is squeezing the GSM PR visa's so that people are forced to go the 457 & ENS route, they are making the skilled migration process a case of demand rather than over supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 good point Joe Bloggs - great to see it worked out for you. It is a question of circumstance and agree entirely with you. I just wish the families who apply for the 457 just wait do the permanent thing - because on a permanent you have freedom, you can choose to go back, you can apply for a job knowing you have got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I just wish the families who apply for the 457 just wait do the permanent thing - because on a permanent you have freedom, you can choose to go back, you can apply for a job knowing you have got it. Yes, but as had been said it's not always possible. 457 is our only route. I am very very aware it's not ideal but it's the only option we have. We contacted 2 migration agents and did our own research and there is no other way as DH doesn't have a degree. We are awaiting to see if DH has been successful or not. It's with a big company and we have done as much research as we can. We are not 100% sure if we will take a job, if offered, as it depends on wages, location etc. We have always wanted to try living in Oz (I did a WHV and a few holidays but nothing longer term) and this is our only realistic chance as we can't afford for DH to go and get a degree. The company is willing, after a set period, to sponsor for PR. Yes we are also aware that the rules for that could change at any moment too. Yes it's scary especially if you have a family. If we had a choice we would've applied for PR for sure. I can understand your point if you have a choice. A lot of us aren't that lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Alaska - lovely balanced addition to this gorgeous thread. If its your only choice go for it if you are desperate to give it a go. Good luck with it - hope it gives you what you want. a 457 is great if you find you don't like it here, but if you do it will onbly get harder getting pr as more people seek to move to get away from the tougher economic situation in the uk. having said that read online somewhere less people migrating now rather than more which might help you longer term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol2Oz Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Cal we need more people to post like you - because i too cringe at people 'migrating' saying goodbye to the uk on a 457 visa!! Oh me too, believe me! I would never migrate on that visa. People have a lot of guts, I guess it's a good thing for them, but to migrate on that visa with an entire family is almost like a death sentence. I call the 457 "The Slavery Visa" - cause you're tied down to your job. There is plenty of potential for abuse - the boss pretty much has you by the balls and can do whatever he wants with you because he knows that your life in Oz is dependent on his giving you a job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sol2oz great point - after working my third successive 60 hr week i said to my boss i was unhappy with the hours and constantly felt tired. she (a brash rude aussie) said ur only here because of me - if it was not for me you'd be in england (she had never been out of south australia the driest most blandest pieces of earth ive seen and ive travelled plenty) - and she said if you have any problem you have 10 days to leave australia! i thought glad i never said anything before. i had before this become a suck up knowing that i wanted to stay but yes it depended on them. glad i got the freedom now - enjoying it in oz at the moment, loved my summer in the uk - lucky i can live in both places. as for my ex boss - a hole with a capital a she knew what she could get away with having a 457 employee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol2Oz Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sol2oz great point - after working my third successive 60 hr week i said to my boss i was unhappy with the hours and constantly felt tired. she (a brash rude aussie) said ur only here because of me - if it was not for me you'd be in england (she had never been out of south australia the driest most blandest pieces of earth ive seen and ive travelled plenty) - and she said if you have any problem you have 10 days to leave australia! i thought glad i never said anything before. i had before this become a suck up knowing that i wanted to stay but yes it depended on them. glad i got the freedom now - enjoying it in oz at the moment, loved my summer in the uk - lucky i can live in both places. as for my ex boss - a hole with a capital a she knew what she could get away with having a 457 employee Exactly! And the sad thing is that you're not the only one - I keep reading about these stories. The last one I read was about a woman who migrated to Perth on the infamous 457, and oh boy - her boss was verbally abusive - he used to call her the C word, if you know what I mean. The patience she had to have just to tolerate that abuse and stay in Oz - well, she had already left the UK and sold her house, so you can imagine how she felt and the anger in her. She posted on another forum, "What laws are there to prevent abuse" but people were just telling her to get on with her life, and find another job. Oh yeah, easier said than done on a 457! :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiara Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 This is all news to me I must say. We're awaiting our 457 and frankly, I haven't really asked any questions so far. Can you apply for a PR while you're on the 457? Like pintpot, we're really not sure about staying. The economy in Ireland is so bad at present we have no choice but we do hope that will change. Suck it and see is a good way of putting it. But let me get this right, should my husbands employer decide to terminate him, we have to be out of the country in 28 days if he doesn't have an alternative? With five kids, that's a worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Oh me too, believe me! I would never migrate on that visa. People have a lot of guts, I guess it's a good thing for them, but to migrate on that visa with an entire family is almost like a death sentence. Isn't that just a touch dramatic?! I think as long as people have an idea of the pros and cons, then it's fine. IF DH gets a job and IF we decide to go, then we will keep our house on and view it as a temporary move and hope it works out and we eventually get PR. I agree wholeheartedly about if you have a choice go for PR. Or go on a 457 and apply for PR ASAP. However for those with no choice, should we live our lives without any risks or adventure? We are in a position here where DH has about a 50% chance of losing his job in the next year anyway so staying could be a big risk too. At least his industry is booming in Oz at the moment. There is a lot to weigh up, and threads like this are very good to help people see both sides. But if people decide to go after weighing it all up, then good luck to them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol2Oz Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Isn't that just a touch dramatic?!I think as long as people have an idea of the pros and cons, then it's fine. IF DH gets a job and IF we decide to go, then we will keep our house on and view it as a temporary move and hope it works out and we eventually get PR. I agree wholeheartedly about if you have a choice go for PR. Or go on a 457 and apply for PR ASAP. However for those with no choice, should we live our lives without any risks or adventure? We are in a position here where DH has about a 50% chance of losing his job in the next year anyway so staying could be a big risk too. At least his industry is booming in Oz at the moment. There is a lot to weigh up, and threads like this are very good to help people see both sides. But if people decide to go after weighing it all up, then good luck to them all. I apologize if I sound a bit negative - but for me personally, I'm a tad conservative - I just find it mind-blowing to migrate an entire family on a 457 visa. But for those people whom it has worked out for, good for them, and it's admirable. For me, I just feel that a 457 opens doors for abuse because as I've stated before, the boss knows he's got you. And honestly, there are so many people out of work at the global level, that it's an employer's market, meaning that in the end, they can do with you whatever they want. If they don't like even the way you comb your hair, well, back to the resume pile they go - give someone else a 457 - it's like picking candy out of a big basket. Believe me, if they don't want you, they'll find the tiniest mistake with the way you do your job and use that as an excuse to let you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 chiara = a 457 and you have 5 children. Good luck but the 457 is not a visa to be uprooting 7 of you on. Think long and hard if you are going on this visa - i reckon going for alternatives and waiting 6-12 months is better than a 457 where you might get it in 2 months. Read the small print delicately and listen to those who can tell you that this visa is not worth putting a lot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 suck it and see is like the phrase hit and hope. id hit and hope in a game of cricket, not in moving 5 children into a new life, culture and system the other side of the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiara Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Marchman, I hear what you're saying, but staying in Ireland would mean losing everything right now. My OH works in construction and there is nothing happening here in that industry. Nothing at all. Our choices are bleak -- move to Oz or stay here and sit on the dole. Having said that, my OH's future employer has put a lot of money into him -- they are paying our flights and relocation costs, so there's not much benefit to them in firing him on a whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest59652 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 as quick as they hire they can easily fire - but hey go for it!!! its the effect on the 5 that id worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiara Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think losing our home would have a worse effect. But I will take your point and ensure there's a back up plan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuptiemackay Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm probably going out on a 457 in December if all goes well, uprooting wife and 2 kids into the bargain. I've got the visa through the company I work for at the moment, they are up-manning on a huge scale in Australia, its a massive global multinational! They are investing in the visa, flying us there, moving our furniture etc etc. To replace me with someone with similar experience would mean paying all that out again, as well as the 6 months with no-one in place! They have stated that they will help with PR. I'll take my chances with that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiara Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 cuptiemackay, we're the same as you -- life is all a game of chance at the end of the day. We've just spent three years in the UAE where not only can you be turfed out at the drop of a hat, but should you be fired your visa is instantly cancelled, your bank informed, often before you are, and you have to pay off any loans or credit card debts before you leave the country. Should you not be able to do this, they jail you! So frankly, the idea of going somewhere that has some idea of human rights and liberty can only be a step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest adso1404 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hello, This is an extremely interesting post since I intend to apply for a 457 visa myself... Another different scenario though is this: what if you are your own employer? According to DIAC's web site (which includes booklet no. 9) if you are running a business overseas, you can still apply for sponsorship (i.e. to be recognised as a regular business sponsor), nominate a position (to be filled by yourself) and then apply for a temporary visa, right? In this scenario, would people agree that some of the negatives attached to a 457 simply disappear? (BTW, this is exactly what I intend to do...). Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebourvellec Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I went out on a 457 in 2006, and it didnt work out for me either, 10 months later I was back in UK. I was working for a company that I worked for on my WHV, so I knew the people. But was going to be doing a different job than I did before - was working 70-80 hr weeks and 3 months without a day off. I was in the outback, not much to do when not working. After my boss renewed my visa for another 4 years - I realised the I was never going to get PR from them, and there was a problem with my wages and super. I left job, and went to immigration (who said that they could have helped find me a new sponsor if I had wanted to stay??) & fairwork before leaving to tell them what happened and asked to get my visa cancelled, a flight back with so short notice cost about $3000 one way. My OH company that he works for now could sponsor us for 457 on a transfer, but I would only go back on PR visa. There was just me for my 457, so It didnt matter so much that it didnt work out, but now we have a baby its too far away just to get on a plane if its not working. Im happy when it works out for the 457 route and I know some dont have any other option than to go down the 457 route, but the 28 day rule is quite scary prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorlton Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Thanks to everyone, made this a very interesting read. I can see and agree with most peoples pro's and con's but for me its the best way into Oz. I'm going to a company that has employed people I know on 457's and given them PR between 6 - 12 mths and they all still work for the same company, so I've got no real worries there and I'm going on my own and keeping my house in the UK. But would I do it with a family.... probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Chiara I think you're doing the right thing, don't let people scare you unnecessarily. Of course it would be nice to get a permanent visa, but timescales don't always allow it; and big national/multinational companies hiring from abroad, like mine (and probably the one who's offered your OH a job) are always going to go the 457 route as it's quicker and easier. On a temporary visa there is scope for abuse, but thousands don't get abused; my sister in law has been in Sydney on a 457 for 6 years now, her employer treats her very well and always has done, with plenty of pay rises/promotions over the years. They even carried on paying her, and kept her job open, when she was off sick for nearly 11 months (cancer), none of which they had to do. I'm not saying that's the norm, but neither is open abuse of the system. I strongly suspect abuse is most likely where you are going to work for a small business; large companies with HR departments and proper contracts of employment are unlikely to behave like that, I'm sure. And whilst your immigration status may not be 100% secure, you still have legal rights in Australia and other employment and contractual law applies there whatever visa you're on - which is a whole lot better than the UAE. As you say, construction in Ireland is dead, and it's going to be dead for at least 10 years I would say. So whilst it might not be ideal to bring a large family out without guaranteed security, it's better than the alternative. Meanwhile, commitment from an employer is a two way thing, and you're right to take comfort from the money they're putting in to your relocation, they won't write it off lightly. People's perception of risk is a funny thing, personally I think making a permanent decision that you want to live somewhere you don't really know, investing 12-18 months into getting a permanent visa with all medicals, English tests etc, selling up, spending thousands more on relocation costs and just decanting over to Australia without even having a solid contract of employment (as many on here do/have done) is way riskier than moving where you know you've got a job and an income - even if you've only got temporary residence rights, but hey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJK88 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Can I ask what the 457 visa is? My husband and I are looking to see what visa is right for us to move over we also have a 3 year old! Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It's an employer sponsored temporary visa - technically called Business (Long Stay). Lasts up to 4 years The big issue is you only have residency rights whilst you retain that job. You can take family with you and your OH has the right to work, but they too only have the right to reside whilst the main applicant is employed by the sponsor. So if you leave or lose your job, you have to leave Australia unless you can find someone else to (rapidly) sponsor you It's not really a visa that's designed for people who are looking to emigrate and move their life . It's designed for companies who want to transfer/second their employees from other parts of the world to Australia, and for employers who can't fill their posts with Australian nationals to enable them to go and hire overseas, as the visa process is quicker and easier On that front it works quite well as far as I know. But as has been mentioned, it is open to abuse by employers if they're that way inclined. If you are "looking for what visa to move over on" then that says to me that you are just trying to move to Australia, rather than a particular job/role over there for a particular employer. So I would suggest it's probably not for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mansawant Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Chiara I think you're doing the right thing, don't let people scare you unnecessarily. Of course it would be nice to get a permanent visa, but timescales don't always allow it; and big national/multinational companies hiring from abroad, like mine (and probably the one who's offered your OH a job) are always going to go the 457 route as it's quicker and easier. On a temporary visa there is scope for abuse, but thousands don't get abused; my sister in law has been in Sydney on a 457 for 6 years now, her employer treats her very well and always has done, with plenty of pay rises/promotions over the years. They even carried on paying her, and kept her job open, when she was off sick for nearly 11 months (cancer), none of which they had to do. I'm not saying that's the norm, but neither is open abuse of the system. I strongly suspect abuse is most likely where you are going to work for a small business; large companies with HR departments and proper contracts of employment are unlikely to behave like that, I'm sure. And whilst your immigration status may not be 100% secure, you still have legal rights in Australia and other employment and contractual law applies there whatever visa you're on - which is a whole lot better than the UAE. As you say, construction in Ireland is dead, and it's going to be dead for at least 10 years I would say. So whilst it might not be ideal to bring a large family out without guaranteed security, it's better than the alternative. Meanwhile, commitment from an employer is a two way thing, and you're right to take comfort from the money they're putting in to your relocation, they won't write it off lightly. People's perception of risk is a funny thing, personally I think making a permanent decision that you want to live somewhere you don't really know, investing 12-18 months into getting a permanent visa with all medicals, English tests etc, selling up, spending thousands more on relocation costs and just decanting over to Australia without even having a solid contract of employment (as many on here do/have done) is way riskier than moving where you know you've got a job and an income - even if you've only got temporary residence rights, but hey..... Hi Pintpot, yes if the company is multinational and 457 is the only option, then why not take a chance. My wife is a nurse and all public hospitals in Oz provide 457 visa becoz its quicker and they get the nurses working for them quickly . They can also apply for PR once you complete 3/6 months with them. Some hospitals in rural areas provide PR initially but those are very few. My wife's friend went to Sydney on 457 in Feb 07 as a nurse and and got PR in Dec 07. That was bit late as they asked hopital to apply for PR after 9 months. So if you are a nurse and getting 457 for public hospital then there is no need to wait for PR. You will work for only 38 hours per week, can join union there and they just can't terminate your employment without valid reason. We came to UK from India on a work permit (my wife being work permit holder) which is 457 in Australia. And there is plus point in Oz if you are a nurse you will get PR within years time though you came in on 457. However in UK you have to complete 5 years then only you can apply for PR and there is nothing like PR in the beginning only after 5 years. Mansawant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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