Guest earlswood Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 seen your posts over the last few months and i think now you are realising what a spectacular failure you made of you move to oz !!!!!! KNOWITALL springs to mind:biglaugh:your sorry now the euphoria of being back has gone hahahahahahahhhahaha Are your parents siblings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gibbboe Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 FFS!!!lol! nothing like being straight to the point eh?be funny when the mods see this,been wondering where you've been:biggrin: I wouldn't want my cat 'Tiddles' to see such a rude post:rolleyes:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest earlswood Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I wouldn't want my cat 'Tiddles' to see such a rude post:rolleyes:. Are your parents siblings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 People under thirty seem happy and the people I mix with are generakky happy....but the over thirties are the biggest whingers in the world...people do smile and seem happy when I see them in pubs and clubs and when I meet them.....but they still whinge and moan about everything. Mmmmm,i smile constantly when im in the pub earl:biglaugh:,is there a possibility that a lot of people under thirty dont have the responsibilities/bills etc that the bulk of the older population have do you think earl??? its not the best age group imo to gauge how happy a countrys population is earl,reading between the lines it seems that its maybe dawning on you that there isnt this " happy smiling population" here that you met with at xmas, xmas being the operative word.like i say earl........i have no axe to grind in favour of, or against oz/uk ( people are people wherever they may be )but i dont think xmas was the best time to judge and pass opinion on how happy people are mate.but you were just back home and just maybe you tend to see things in a better light in that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tony.London Suburbs Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I mentioned on another thread that we "take for granted" all that is great about The UK like our location,easy access to so many other Countries and Countryside.So if something is fine there seems no need to mention it but focus on things that aren't so good and where there is room for improvement. Also we are an "old" Country both in History and Tradition and in population and a little grumpy, accordingly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest earlswood Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 yeah that earlswood bloke , went , failed and the fact he is permenantly on pomsinoz speaks volumes Are you actually going to Australia?....are you in Australia?..whats your job? where do you want to move to in Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest proud2beaussie Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I'm probably the last person on PiO who you would expect to be defending earlswood but I really don't see how his disappointment with Australia has anything to do with this thread which is about how earlswood thinks that Britain is a nation of whingers who don't realise how lucky they are in comparison to some other countries (Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth earls). I don't always agree with earlswood (in fact I don't often agree with him) but at least he had a go at moving to Australia,didn't like it,and is now happy back in the UK,I don't think that means he failed,it just means that Australia wasn't his cup of tea,and earlswood is as entitled as anyone else on this forum to his opinion without being called offensive names. I probably will never agree with much of what earlswood has to say,but I will defend to death his right to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracy Murphy Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I'm probably the last person on PiO who you would expect to be defending earlswood but I really don't see how his disappointment with Australia has anything to do with this thread which is about how earlswood thinks that Britain is a nation of whingers who don't realise how lucky they are in comparison to some other countries (Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth earls).I don't always agree with earlswood (in fact I don't often agree with him) but at least he had a go at moving to Australia,didn't like it,and is now happy back in the UK,I don't think that means he failed,it just means that Australia wasn't his cup of tea,and earlswood is as entitled as anyone else on this forum to his opinion without being called offensive names. I probably will never agree with much of what earlswood has to say,but I will defend to death his right to say it. I agree with you. Anyone who returns from Oz should not be classed as having failed. It won't be for everyone but hats off to those who give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozboy Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 l guess if your a negative person and hates the UK and always whinging about it chances are when you immigrate to OZ you will hate it just as much or even more and whinge about all the neagative things about OZ.:arghh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deb62 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 l guess if your a negative person and hates the UK and always whinging about it chances are when you immigrate to OZ you will hate it just as much or even more and whinge about all the neagative things about OZ.:arghh: Strongly suspect you have something there Ozboy! Hence my attempts to retrain my family to stop whingeing before we go (including myself!) :laugh: Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 0405delboy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I mentioned on another thread that we "take for granted" all that is great about The UK like our location,easy access to so many other Countries and Countryside.So if something is fine there seems no need to mention it but focus on things that aren't so good and where there is room for improvement.Also we are an "old" Country both in History and Tradition and in population and a little grumpy, accordingly! Hello, I agree with you Tony, I dont wanna offend any Aussies but they can be very touchy about criticism and seem to take it personally and as a result will ignore you or write you off as a whinger. In England, you can break the ice with a stranger at a bus stop and share a giggle with a whinge. I dont think its healthy to bottle up your gripes and opinions. My Mum tried that approach when she first came to Australia in the early eighties (by all accounts there was plenty to complain about). A good old Stepford wife she was not . Before she left and in her older years said 'bugger it!' and honed her whinge skills to a fine art. In her community she wrote letters to Ombudsmen and Managers and made countless phonecalls on the behalf of the elderly in her area and anyone who needed help AND she got results. She was called all kinds of names and told not to rock the boat but she battled on against Aussie red tape! Theres a lot to be said for the pro-active whinger, theyre a rare breed and are usually British. 0405delboy :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 0405delboy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 My last post wandered a bit but the point was that negativity is the best mate of the whinge but sometimes it can be useful and if anyone was wondering: My Mummy is currently camped outside Downing St (in the snow) campaigning about the price of corn plasters and is also drawing up a petition to have Scrubs prison closed down and the inmates shipped over here!!!! :wideeyed::biglaugh: 0405delboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest proud2beaussie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I dont think its healthy to bottle up your gripes and opinions. Oh,so THAT'S why you're always moaning then delboy! LOL. (Only kidding mate) I reckon a good whinge does you a power of good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aldo Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hello,I agree with you Tony, I dont wanna offend any Aussies but they can be very touchy about criticism and seem to take it personally and as a result will ignore you or write you off as a whinger. In England, you can break the ice with a stranger at a bus stop and share a giggle with a whinge. I dont think its healthy to bottle up your gripes and opinions. My Mum tried that approach when she first came to Australia in the early eighties (by all accounts there was plenty to complain about). A good old Stepford wife she was not . Before she left and in her older years said 'bugger it!' and honed her whinge skills to a fine art. In her community she wrote letters to Ombudsmen and Managers and made countless phonecalls on the behalf of the elderly in her area and anyone who needed help AND she got results. She was called all kinds of names and told not to rock the boat but she battled on against Aussie red tape! Theres a lot to be said for the pro-active whinger, theyre a rare breed and are usually British. 0405delboy :wink: Thats a great story and for me it rings true. I have seen many a union meeting in Oz and one thing they all have in common is at least one English or Scottish accent. I can can also recall our own weekly safety meetings where before hand everyone would be boasting how they where going to bring up certain issues about this and that and every time when it came to "does anyone have any issues" from the safety officer, I was the only one speaking up.I would look round for approval from colegues and their eyes would be firmly fixed to the floor!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest proud2beaussie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Theres a lot to be said for the pro-active whinger, theyre a rare breed and are usually British. Agreed,but I pose the same question as I did to earlswood,is it 'whingeing" for the sake of it,or is it really just staunch British,hard working people standing up for what they see as right? or is it one and the same thing and is it just that you need to whinge and moan to get anything worthwhile achieved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 0405delboy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Agreed,but I pose the same question as I did to earlswood,is it 'whingeing" for the sake of it,or is it really just staunch British,hard working people standing up for what they see as right? or is it one and the same thing and is it just that you need to whinge and moan to get anything worthwhile achieved? A bit of both Nigel but I've no doubt that women were whingers before they got the vote FIRST in SA. I'm sure the indigenous were whingers too. But for Brits you must understand that gripes about pies and dialect is pretty small. Look at the UK - Muslims whinged big time and now they have sharia law!!! Compare one with the other....at your leisure!!! :no: 0405delboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tony.London Suburbs Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I was the only one speaking up.I would look round for approval from colegues and their eyes would be firmly fixed to the floor!! How very true in life, generally. I've had grown Men say to me "Don't forget to say blah/blah but leave my name out of it, don't mention me!"... Aldo, as an aside, knowing you are from Bexley. Have you moved permanently and why leave Bexley and its Australia not "Viva Espana" Yes?:tongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emmap Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 well earl, seriously now,does this mean you are now saying people are'nt smiling and happy? like you said a while back in another thread you started on your return to the uk? because this thread and the one you posted a while back seem to contradict each other,just curious.:confused: it was all the £1 bottled beer he drank from weatherspoons......hes run out of money and is sober.....:biglaugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh in oz Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Blame the newspapers.....they love doom and gloom stories. UK's not bad and is blumin great compared to some countries. We don't help ourselves sometimes. Still going to Oz meself though. At least I can be a whinging pom in the sun, although lovin the snow at the moment. Still think we need a better migration system though. I pay 40% tax and get nowt back. Seem to be paying for others who in some cases are not contributing due to bone idleness. Happy to pay me way to help those who cannot work, but think some of the more lazier Brits could get off the bums and do more. you get nothing back? when did you last go to the doctor? Have your bins emptied? go to the dentist? shall I go on..... agree with you about the lazy brits though fair few of them need a kick up the bum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aldo Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Perceptions are a strange thing. The yanks see us as "stiff upper lip, overly polite, queuing obsessed and reserved but the Aussies see us as cocky (well me anyway), pot stirring, whinging troublemakers... In my opinion the Aussies lack assertiveness and leadership qualities but are good workers, a bit like soldier ants. Tony, I'm living in Spain, I still have a 50% share in an apartment which we rent out and i'm also renting here for a year to see what the financial situation does. I'm in and out of Bexley all the time. I usually get in the Kings Head and have a few beer with sam the Eagle. I was in Brisbane for just over a year and a half and my opinion on the place is well documented here so i wont go on about it as it seems to get some folk riled.:wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 you get nothing back? when did you last go to the doctor? Have your bins emptied? go to the dentist? shall I go on..... agree with you about the lazy brits though fair few of them need a kick up the bum Oz is full of bludgers , not talkin about the migrants either as long they do burn outs in their cars they are happy. Mally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 you get nothing back? when did you last go to the doctor? Have your bins emptied? go to the dentist? shall I go on..... agree with you about the lazy brits though fair few of them need a kick up the bum Hi Welsh, I to agree with you about lazy brits, ther are to many people sitting back and taking something for nothing, while the rest of us go out and graft. Regarding the services though, we do pay an awful lot of money to have our bins emptied,or to go to the doctors, I know i will be accused of whinging but as we pay we should have a right comment. :yes: andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trogg Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Some of this may sound a bit contradictory but bear with me. We moved to Bulgaria over three years ago because we got fed up of listening to our own (and others) winging about the rubbish state of our stupid country. We've rarely regretted the move and have no intention of returning. Oz is the next adventure I think the Brits have many reasons to winge and most of them are our own fault. The British psyche seems to cling onto the idea that we still have some standing in the world and that other nations listen to anything we have to say. That attitude got us into the gulf war with Blair poodling up to Bush and was done against the express wish of the majority of the people. That isn't democracy, that's just a demonstration of the contempt in which we are held be our lords and masters. We lived in a country where the government constantly bleated about our rights as citizens (read subjects), the right to choice in the NHS, from Social Services, the right to roam, the freedom of information act, the human rights act (but only some of it) blah,blah, when in fact our "rights" are being eroded on a daily basis. We can be fined/punished for the most absurd and petty "offences". That list is too long to go into and you who still live in the UK know better than me what they are. Meanwhile we have lost all sense of community and individual responsibility. The UK seems to have the most absurd immigration policy on the planet which appears to allow every kind of crook, gang or terrorist in and then won't throw them out, viz. Abu Hamza.....and we even paid his invalidity benefit as he'd blown his own hand off! Sit back and think about that. Whilst talking about "civil liberties" on the one hand, the UK has more CCTV cameras than any other country (except perhaps for the USA, who wont produce figures), more cameras, in fact, than the whole of Europe combined with over 4,000,000, count the zeros. I've heard of cameras being placed in peoples wheely bins to make sure they're putting the right rubbish in the right place and people are being fined for putting junk mail in street bins (junk mail mind, rubbish that someone has been paid to stuff through your letter box, that you didn't ask for and that you probably don't even open before throwing away) We are taxed in every aspect of our lives over there, even the police have become a very active and lucarative arm of the Inland Revenue, with their deliberate and cynical targetting of car owners. Count the different ways in which the government takes money from you. Meanwhile, the serious earners contribute next to nothing. Your government has written off 18 billion pounds ( How many zeros is that?) of your money on government computer systems for the NHS, MoD, inland revenue, Social Security that don't work....they don't work! And then there's the snow.......oh come on.... I was watching the BBC news all day yesterday and I kid you not, there was a guy from the AA telling people how to prepare for driving in the snow and do you know that you need to scrape your windows (so you can see out, do you see?) and you should wear a coat when it's cold and you shouldn't drive in wellies.......all...bloody...day. Is it just me or was the whole country given a lobotomy while we were asleep. And what are they not talking about whilst feeding the hysteria. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is laughing at our ineptitude and incompetence (and believe me it is, just look at some of the BBC comments pages).A foot of snow and the country grinds to a halt. We can't keep one of the worlds major airports open, we can't keep the buses runing in our capital city and the economy is estimated to have lost over a billion pounds (ooh, another big number) in just a couple of days. Now that could have bought a fair bit of grit and a couple of ploughs, maybe? It can't even be blamed on the weather forcasts. The country was given a week in which to prepair. Think about your insurances; car, house, contents, life, liability etc, J***s, I hate those companies. Can anyone say they got a reasonable deal from any insurance company in their life? And the banks! Do we need to go there? They and the rest of the city, with the governments conivance, have bankrupted the country. Please lets not kid ourselves that this is not the case. And then there's our society and culture itself. What was the figure I heard the other day? Something like one in three families are single parent, usualy fatherless? Many kids are drifting to gangs (often violent) for emotional support. We spend more and more of our lives either working or allowing ouselves to be spoon fed pap from the TV that, again tells us how much choice we have for the next great thing we absolutely must have but don't realy need. We dump our kids in their bedrooms so they can be spoon fed, perhaps a different choice of pap, from every gizmo imaginable and give them a call when their microwave meal dinner is ready. The underclass has no voice and has no hope of being heard even if it could speak, the working class has been gagged and castrated to the point where it is now illegal to protest (I'm sure a lawyer would argue with this) but in the real world this is the case, the middle class is just is just myopic, not willing to look further than it's garden fence because the reality out there is just too painful (and who can blame us) whilst the ruling class, the class that has made the rules, laughs up it's sleeve at us saps while we let them p**s off with the cash. Where is your pension now? Where's your equity? Why have all the country's assets (gas, electric, rail etc.) been sold off and which are now mainly in the hands of foreign companies. Did you know that France has capped energy inflation at under three percent. How much have your utility bills gone up in the uk? As a large proportion of your utilities, including nuclear, are owned by foreign companies, including a French one, you are in effect subsidising another country's cheaper electricity. They're talking on the news just now about the heating subsidy for the elderly, which is right and proper, but think, the taxpayer again is giving the elderly money, so they can give it to a foreign company, so it doesn't even go back into our own coffers. Does this make sense? And we are not blameless. Our children cannot afford to buy their own homes now because of our own generations greed and stupidity in jumping on Thatcher's property bandwaggon and, because there is now no council housing, most the rental money is going into private hands, a massive proportion of which is paid for by the tax payer through housing benefits. Why are tax payers paying buy-to-let landlords mortgages? Think about how absurd that is. Public funded private wealth, again. My sense is that England is a very unhappy place, but doesn't know why or what to do about it. I left the country for many reasons, a major one being I got tired of living with my impotent rage at a country I could no longer respect or admire and that was quite frankly was just taking the mick. We both left well-paid, secure jobs to move to one of the poorest countries in Europe, work harder than we ever had to in the UK for a fraction of the money yet in many, many ways we have a much better quality of life and are certainly much happier. It isn't about the money and it's very humbling to learn just how little one needs to have. The thing we can still do better than anyone else in the world, winging apart, is brew beer. I do miss a pint of Abbots. And the grand-kids of course. Thanks for listening (if anyone is) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Some of this may sound a bit contradictory but bear with me.We moved to Bulgaria over three years ago because we got fed up of listening to our own (and others) winging about the rubbish state of our stupid country. We've rarely regretted the move and have no intention of returning. Oz is the next adventure I think the Brits have many reasons to winge and most of them are our own fault. The British psyche seems to cling onto the idea that we still have some standing in the world and that other nations listen to anything we have to say. That attitude got us into the gulf war with Blair poodling up to Bush and was done against the express wish of the majority of the people. That isn't democracy, that's just a demonstration of the contempt in which we are held be our lords and masters. We lived in a country where the government constantly bleated about our rights as citizens (read subjects), the right to choice in the NHS, from Social Services, the right to roam, the freedom of information act, the human rights act (but only some of it) blah,blah, when in fact our "rights" are being eroded on a daily basis. We can be fined/punished for the most absurd and petty "offences". That list is too long to go into and you who still live in the UK know better than me what they are. Meanwhile we have lost all sense of community and individual responsibility. The UK seems to have the most absurd immigration policy on the planet which appears to allow every kind of crook, gang or terrorist in and then won't throw them out, viz. Abu Hamza.....and we even paid his invalidity benefit as he'd blown his own hand off! Sit back and think about that. Whilst talking about "civil liberties" on the one hand, the UK has more CCTV cameras than any other country (except perhaps for the USA, who wont produce figures), more cameras, in fact, than the whole of Europe combined with over 4,000,000, count the zeros. I've heard of cameras being placed in peoples wheely bins to make sure they're putting the right rubbish in the right place and people are being fined for putting junk mail in street bins (junk mail mind, rubbish that someone has been paid to stuff through your letter box, that you didn't ask for and that you probably don't even open before throwing away) We are taxed in every aspect of our lives over there, even the police have become a very active and lucarative arm of the Inland Revenue, with their deliberate and cynical targetting of car owners. Count the different ways in which the government takes money from you. Meanwhile, the serious earners contribute next to nothing. Your government has written off 18 billion pounds ( How many zeros is that?) of your money on government computer systems for the NHS, MoD, inland revenue, Social Security that don't work....they don't work! And then there's the snow.......oh come on.... I was watching the BBC news all day yesterday and I kid you not, there was a guy from the AA telling people how to prepare for driving in the snow and do you know that you need to scrape your windows (so you can see out, do you see?) and you should wear a coat when it's cold and you shouldn't drive in wellies.......all...bloody...day. Is it just me or was the whole country given a lobotomy while we were asleep. And what are they not talking about whilst feeding the hysteria. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is laughing at our ineptitude and incompetence (and believe me it is, just look at some of the BBC comments pages).A foot of snow and the country grinds to a halt. We can't keep one of the worlds major airports open, we can't keep the buses runing in our capital city and the economy is estimated to have lost over a billion pounds (ooh, another big number) in just a couple of days. Now that could have bought a fair bit of grit and a couple of ploughs, maybe? It can't even be blamed on the weather forcasts. The country was given a week in which to prepair. Think about your insurances; car, house, contents, life, liability etc, J***s, I hate those companies. Can anyone say they got a reasonable deal from any insurance company in their life? And the banks! Do we need to go there? They and the rest of the city, with the governments conivance, have bankrupted the country. Please lets not kid ourselves that this is not the case. And then there's our society and culture itself. What was the figure I heard the other day? Something like one in three families are single parent, usualy fatherless? Many kids are drifting to gangs (often violent) for emotional support. We spend more and more of our lives either working or allowing ouselves to be spoon fed pap from the TV that, again tells us how much choice we have for the next great thing we absolutely must have but don't realy need. We dump our kids in their bedrooms so they can be spoon fed, perhaps a different choice of pap, from every gizmo imaginable and give them a call when their microwave meal dinner is ready. The underclass has no voice and has no hope of being heard even if it could speak, the working class has been gagged and castrated to the point where it is now illegal to protest (I'm sure a lawyer would argue with this) but in the real world this is the case, the middle class is just is just myopic, not willing to look further than it's garden fence because the reality out there is just too painful (and who can blame us) whilst the ruling class, the class that has made the rules, laughs up it's sleeve at us saps while we let them p**s off with the cash. Where is your pension now? Where's your equity? Why have all the country's assets (gas, electric, rail etc.) been sold off and which are now mainly in the hands of foreign companies. Did you know that France has capped energy inflation at under three percent. How much have your utility bills gone up in the uk? As a large proportion of your utilities, including nuclear, are owned by foreign companies, including a French one, you are in effect subsidising another country's cheaper electricity. They're talking on the news just now about the heating subsidy for the elderly, which is right and proper, but think, the taxpayer again is giving the elderly money, so they can give it to a foreign company, so it doesn't even go back into our own coffers. Does this make sense? And we are not blameless. Our children cannot afford to buy their own homes now because of our own generations greed and stupidity in jumping on Thatcher's property bandwaggon and, because there is now no council housing, most the rental money is going into private hands, a massive proportion of which is paid for by the tax payer through housing benefits. Why are tax payers paying buy-to-let landlords mortgages? Think about how absurd that is. Public funded private wealth, again. My sense is that England is a very unhappy place, but doesn't know why or what to do about it. I left the country for many reasons, a major one being I got tired of living with my impotent rage at a country I could no longer respect or admire and that was quite frankly was just taking the mick. We both left well-paid, secure jobs to move to one of the poorest countries in Europe, work harder than we ever had to in the UK for a fraction of the money yet in many, many ways we have a much better quality of life and are certainly much happier. It isn't about the money and it's very humbling to learn just how little one needs to have. The thing we can still do better than anyone else in the world, winging apart, is brew beer. I do miss a pint of Abbots. And the grand-kids of course. Thanks for listening (if anyone is) Simon You going to b stuffed in oz mate the taxes are bloody silly and as for speed cameras they are going to trble them, they can be cops ,in vans in wheelie bins trees and my mate got flashed by one in a kids toy . Apparently the resident gets a back hander for it. Australia throw money at the indigenous natives oz each one gets $50 for a bloke with 11 kids thats 600 bucks for grog . The crimes they commit are hushed by the authorities so as not to offend . Before any one thinks i`m racist i am no such thing but until you are here and see for your own eyes and ears. They have had a raw deal in the past but the government just throws money at em causin alcohol problems ,ther are mini prohibitions in Northern Wa in the communities . A certain joke is that that the brew emu bitter (rather cheap and nasty ) is called domestic violence in the pilbara and kimberley Mally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 great post trogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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