Working 6 months uk , 6 months Oz

[jayrigg]

Hi, 

Have been in OZ now since 2006, am now a dual citizen.I was wondering if it's possible to work 6 months in the UK and 6 months in Australia every year (so I catch both summers).If it is possible do I need any special work visa requirements to do it.

Thanks Again,

Jay.

[BendigoBoy]

You're a citizen in both countries, so you don't need a visa.

Whether your employer has an entity set up to be able to pay you in both countries would be another matter.

That said, if they are happy with you working fully remote, then it could slip under the radar if they don't know where you are as long as the work gets done. Then they just pay you through the one account.

Could be tax implications @Ken would be aware of beyond the standard double taxation treaty maybe?

[Johnny Kash]

This would be my dream.

Managed one year of doing it.   Put all our Oz stuff into storage, quit our rental and headed back to UK for a summer.   

Back to Oz, Airbnb for couple of weeks then found another rental.    It only happened due to the perfect storm of me having a contract job I wasnt bothered about in Oz, wife was on maternity leave so we could wangle it.

If there a way you can do it, go for it I say.   Best of both worlds.   Although the logistics of accommodation, furniture etc is tricky unless youre seriously wealthy or a professional cricketer 

 

[Blue Manna]

14 hours ago, BendigoBoy said:

You're a citizen in both countries, so you don't need a visa.

Whether your employer has an entity set up to be able to pay you in both countries would be another matter.

That said, if they are happy with you working fully remote, then it could slip under the radar if they don't know where you are as long as the work gets done. Then they just pay you through the one account.

Could be tax implications @Ken would be aware of beyond the standard double taxation treaty maybe?

If you had a decent VPN. Most companies don't like you doing that for tax reasons. If you didn't mind lower paid jobs you could do it easily. Both countries are screaming for lower paid jobs. Could be harder with skilled. I've seen some companies take 3 months to hire someone. What sort of work do you do? When you get certain skills, companies often want continuity.

[Marisawright]

17 hours ago, jayrigg said:

Hi, 

Have been in OZ now since 2006, am now a dual citizen.I was wondering if it's possible to work 6 months in the UK and 6 months in Australia every year (so I catch both summers).If it is possible do I need any special work visa requirements to do it.

You don't need any visas.  If you're set up to work as a contractor, then you just invoice the company and it's not their business where you live.  Tax could be a headache but if you get good professional advice, you should be able to avoid the potential pitfalls.  I think you'd need to decide where you want to be 'usually resident' and then invoice them all year round accordingly, e.g. if you decide you're usually resident in Australia, you'd invoice them from your Australian sole trader entity all year round, even when you're in the UK.  But you need to be sure you've organised your year such that the Australian and British taxman agree that's where you are usually resident...which is why you need the advice.

It's just the logistics that might kill the idea off.  Where will you live?   

If you can afford to keep a home in both countries, then you'll always have one property that's empty for 6 months, and that can make insurance difficult.  The best bet would be to rent out the vacant one while you're away, as an AirBnB, but then you've got extra tax and management hassles to think about. 

If you can't afford to keep a home in both countries, then you'll have to find a rental every time you move.  Obviously it won't be an ordinary long-term rental, because you can't be shipping furniture back and forth, or having to pack it up and store it every time.  Plus you usually can't sign a lease while you're overseas, so each time you move, you'd have to spend some time house-hunting before you can get settled.    Therefore it will have to be a furnished executive let or AirBnB, either of which would be expensive for 6-month stretches. 

What will you do about a car?  If you're OK with carshare services then no worries.  

Edited December 7, 2023 by Marisawright

[Ken]

On 06/12/2023 at 18:13, BendigoBoy said:

You're a citizen in both countries, so you don't need a visa.

Whether your employer has an entity set up to be able to pay you in both countries would be another matter.

That said, if they are happy with you working fully remote, then it could slip under the radar if they don't know where you are as long as the work gets done. Then they just pay you through the one account.

Could be tax implications @Ken would be aware of beyond the standard double taxation treaty maybe?

Hard to see how anyone could ever succeed in being anything other than deemed to be a tax resident of both countries doing that. People have tried to claim they're not resident in either country - but it's always ended in tears and sometimes jail. The double taxation treaty does mean they'll avoid paying double the tax, but still leaves them paying the higher of the two. If they are OK with that and can afford to do it, then it's theoretically possible, especially if they have a job where they can work from home.

[paulhand]

3 hours ago, Ken said:

tears and sometimes jail.

Interesting… can you point me to the cases?

[Marisawright]

7 hours ago, Ken said:

 People have tried to claim they're not resident in either country - but it's always ended in tears and sometimes jail. 

I agree that you can't decide you're not resident, it all comes down to how long you're in the country.  However, if the OP gets the right advice, he can make sure he spends the right amount of time in each country -- for instance, he's talking about doing six months in each, but maybe it's as simple as spending 7 months a year in Oz and 5 months in the UK.

[InnerVoice]

On 06/12/2023 at 18:01, jayrigg said:

Hi, 

Have been in OZ now since 2006, am now a dual citizen.I was wondering if it's possible to work 6 months in the UK and 6 months in Australia every year (so I catch both summers).If it is possible do I need any special work visa requirements to do it.

Thanks Again,

Jay.

In that case 2 months in the UK and 10 months in Oz would probably be a better balance!

[InnerVoice]

10 hours ago, Ken said:

Hard to see how anyone could ever succeed in being anything other than deemed to be a tax resident of both countries doing that. People have tried to claim they're not resident in either country - but it's always ended in tears and sometimes jail. The double taxation treaty does mean they'll avoid paying double the tax, but still leaves them paying the higher of the two. If they are OK with that and can afford to do it, then it's theoretically possible, especially if they have a job where they can work from home.

Please can you explain why that's the case? (I'm not disputing, just curious). Wouldn't each country just tax you on the income you generated while you were living/working there? Why would you end up paying more?

 

3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I agree that you can't decide you're not resident, it all comes down to how long you're in the country.  However, if the OP gets the right advice, he can make sure he spends the right amount of time in each country -- for instance, he's talking about doing six months in each, but maybe it's as simple as spending 7 months a year in Oz and 5 months in the UK.

It can be more complicated if you don't meet the residency tests outright. It then comes down to domicile tests, and my understanding is that you can elect where you consider yourself domiciled (Domicile by choice), if you can demonstrate certain ties.

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/residency-tests/residency-the-domicile-test

[Ken]

7 hours ago, paulhand said:

Interesting… can you point me to the cases?

Paul Hogan

[Ken]

44 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

Please can you explain why that's the case? (I'm not disputing, just curious). Wouldn't each country just tax you on the income you generated while you were living/working there? Why would you end up paying more?

No, both countries tax you on your worldwide income which means it includes all of the income you earned while working in the other country while still tax resident in their jurisdiction. You do get to offset all the tax already paid in the other jurisdiction though.

[InnerVoice]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

No, both countries tax you on your worldwide income which means it includes all of the income you earned while working in the other country while still tax resident in their jurisdiction. You do get to offset all the tax already paid in the other jurisdiction though.

Is this because both countries class you as resident for tax purposes by their own rules? Sounds a bit harsh. Is there any way to avoid that?

[Blue Manna]

2 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

In that case 2 months in the UK and 10 months in Oz would probably be a better balance!

I believe you can do it for 2/50 weeks without any issues, and I often do work a couple of weeks in the other country. I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the UK summer.

[BendigoBoy]

12 minutes ago, Blue Manna said:

I believe you can do it for 2/50 weeks without any issues, and I often do work a couple of weeks in the other country. I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the UK summer.

Ah, to be fair, if you're flying under the radar, you can work in some decent holidays without using up annual leave.

Took the laptop with me to Thailand a while back.  Worked during the height of day when it was just way too hot and humid outside, went touring in the mornings and evenings.
Two week "holiday" using only 8 hours of annual leave.

[InnerVoice]

3 minutes ago, BendigoBoy said:

Ah, to be fair, if you're flying under the radar, you can work in some decent holidays without using up annual leave.

Took the laptop with me to Thailand a while back.  Worked during the height of day when it was just way too hot and humid outside, went touring in the mornings and evenings.
Two week "holiday" using only 8 hours of annual leave.

What exactly is it that you do? - and do you need to take anyone on?!

[BendigoBoy]

5 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

What exactly is it that you do? - and do you need to take anyone on?!

I'm just a bog standard software engineer.  Bit of a polyglot, but just a chap who writes code at the end of the day. 

In short: yes, I need to take people on; just need to get the new product we're building in our team of three up and turning coin so that the boss will open the purse strings for hiring.

[Marisawright]

3 hours ago, Ken said:

No, both countries tax you on your worldwide income which means it includes all of the income you earned while working in the other country while still tax resident in their jurisdiction. You do get to offset all the tax already paid in the other jurisdiction though.

However looking at the definition of tax resident in the UK, I'd have thought the OP would just have to make sure they spend less than 183 days each year in the UK:

"You are likely to be treated as UK tax resident under the SRT if you: spend 183 days or more in the UK during a tax year; or. have a home in the UK and do not have a home overseas; or. work full-time in the UK over a period of 365 days (this does not need to coincide with the tax year)."

[Philip]

On 08/12/2023 at 15:07, Marisawright said:

However looking at the definition of tax resident in the UK, I'd have thought the OP would just have to make sure they spend less than 183 days each year in the UK:

"You are likely to be treated as UK tax resident under the SRT if you: spend 183 days or more in the UK during a tax year; or. have a home in the UK and do not have a home overseas; or. work full-time in the UK over a period of 365 days (this does not need to coincide with the tax year)."

It's far more complicated than that... see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm11520 which explains it as simply as possible and still takes about 20 pages.

To my understanding, however, even after you are determined to be a UK tax resident that can still be overridden by the UK-Australia double taxation treaty, which states 

3 The status of an individual who, by reason of the preceding provisions of this Article is a resident of both Contracting States, shall be determined as follows:

(a) that individual shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which a permanent home is available to that individual; but if a permanent home is available in both States, or in neither of them, that individual shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which the individual’s personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);

(b) if the Contracting State in which the centre of vital interests is situated cannot be determined, the individual shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of which that individual is a national;

(c) if the individual is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the Contracting States shall endeavour to resolve the question by mutual agreement.

For some fascinating reading about how the similar clause in the UK/ZA treaty applied to a wealthy South African, see https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKFTT/TC/2022/TC08443.html

Furthermore, I see there is debate about the meaning of "centre of vital interests" with some academics arguing that it was intended to mean "centre of life interests" because the original OECD text was drafted in French, while others argue that vital has its usual English meaning of important.

 

So, as a non-legally qualified non-accountant, I would say just choose one country to be your base country, try and be as non-permanent as possible in the other, and keep a lot money aside in case you need to go to a tribunal

I would be interested in this once my children have grown up. If that was to be today, I would choose 6+ months in Australia, up to 3 months in the UK and up to 3 months travelling elsewhere. But in 15 years time maybe I will find the UK more favourable again

[InnerVoice]

On 28/12/2023 at 12:35, Philip said:

It's far more complicated than that...

So, as a non-legally qualified non-accountant, I would say just choose one country to be your base country, try and be as non-permanent as possible in the other, and keep a lot money aside in case you need to go to a tribunal 

I would be interested in this once my children have grown up. If that was to be today, I would choose 6+ months in Australia, up to 3 months in the UK and up to 3 months travelling elsewhere. But in 15 years time maybe I will find the UK more favourable again 

As an unqualified former assistant accountant (I'm not sure if that outranks you or not), I totally agree that determining tax residency can be far more complicated than first meets the eye. What I've picked up from the qualified accountants/tax experts who post on the forum from time to time is that once you're in the Australian system, the ATO really don't like to let go of you as a tax resident. You pretty much need to declare that you're leaving Australia permanently and have no significant ties or assets in this country to cut that umbilical cord. If you maintain a property in Australia and are an Australian citizen, you're really going to struggle to argue the contrary.

[Philip]

3 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

once you're in the Australian system, the ATO really don't like to let go of you as a tax resident. You pretty much need to declare that you're leaving Australia permanently and have no significant ties or assets in this country to cut that umbilical cord. If you maintain a property in Australia and are an Australian citizen, you're really going to struggle to argue the contrary.

The UK is the same though - it's just that the SRT explicitly tells you what ties you need to cut to be considered non-resident.

But if I've understood the double taxation treaty correctly, you can tell HMRC to argue it out with the ATO.

 

There's been talk about the Tories getting rid of inheritance tax - this is something that would affect me. As it stands, I believe I'd have to stay in Australia and out of the UK for at least 5 years before HMRC will stop wanting to take my stuff if I die.

[InnerVoice]

8 minutes ago, Philip said:

But if I've understood the double taxation treaty correctly, you can tell HMRC to argue it out with the ATO.

That's good to know. I have interests in both countries too, and I'm also trying to work out how to trip the light fantastic so I don't get stung too hard when the time comes.

Edited December 29, 2023 by InnerVoice

[excitedbutterrified]

Older thread I see, but I know somebody who did this for a few years.

She held a joint appointment as a lecturer between a UK and Oz university, was a dual citizen and ran a course that was split between the two locations, so students would do a couple of years UK and one in Oz, plus the other way around.

She didn't drive, so did not have the hassle of keeping a car in either country, but the arrangement didn't last because its just too much of a pain to move countries every 6 months. Like others have said the logistics are nightmarish.  For her, it meant that she didn't really put down roots in either country, she could only live in furnished rentals, needed to keep a lid on how many possessions she could own, and keep a storage unit in either country.

Not sure how the tax situation worked out for her, but she made it work for a while.  It all stopped during Covid and she had to choose, (and chose to stay in Australia) 

I've looked at if it would be possible for my family to do (as I find UK winters seriously depressing.) and came to the conclusion its impossible for my family, I struggle to see how anyone with school age kids could make it work at all.

[InnerVoice]

10 hours ago, excitedbutterrified said:

Older thread I see, but I know somebody who did this for a few years.

She held a joint appointment as a lecturer between a UK and Oz university, was a dual citizen and ran a course that was split between the two locations, so students would do a couple of years UK and one in Oz, plus the other way around.

She didn't drive, so did not have the hassle of keeping a car in either country, but the arrangement didn't last because its just too much of a pain to move countries every 6 months. Like others have said the logistics are nightmarish.  For her, it meant that she didn't really put down roots in either country, she could only live in furnished rentals, needed to keep a lid on how many possessions she could own, and keep a storage unit in either country.

Not sure how the tax situation worked out for her, but she made it work for a while.  It all stopped during Covid and she had to choose, (and chose to stay in Australia) 

I've looked at if it would be possible for my family to do (as I find UK winters seriously depressing.) and came to the conclusion its impossible for my family, I struggle to see how anyone with school age kids could make it work at all.

I once met a chap while hiking in the Lake District who was a sheep-shearer who said he spent part of each year in Australia and NZ doing that, although I didn't ask him how long and at what times of year he was there. I just thought it was interesting. I guess if you're young and fancy free there are a few jobs in a similar vein that would allow you work in both countries for a period of time each year. As you say though, it isn't really practical for most people, and especially once you've had kids.

[paulhand]

8 hours ago, InnerVoice said:

I guess if you're young and fancy free there are a few jobs in a similar vein that would allow you work in both countries for a period of time each year.

I’m neither young nor especially fancy free, but Registered Migration Agent is an excellent option in this respect ;- )

Edited January 9 by paulhand