Aged Parent visa 804

[Gemini]

20 hours ago, LindaH27 said:

@Gemini Also a couple of years or so after applying for 804 and getting a bridging visa you will both have to have Medicals. If you pass you are given a later queue date which is always going to add time to the length of wait! That queue date is the one that determines when they will look at your application - not the date you applied for the visa. It’s heading towards 30 years for 804 grants so you need to be self supporting for all that time. As temporary residents it will cost you more to purchase property.  As other have said you will get Reciprocal health care through Medicare but not full. No cover for aged care costs, ambulance, dentists etc  and legally it’s only for essential and urgent treatment but some have had more than that. Something like - you can have a new hip if you fall and break it but no new hip if it’s just wear and tear and painful. 
Also remember the reciprocal health agreements are simply that. They are not the Law - they are only agreements between Australia and various other countries - and could therefore be terminated at any time. It’s not likely but Australia does not like 804 visas and their corresponding bridging visas. It costs them too much money and as had been previously said - they tried to get rid of it once before. There’s also been talk in Australia recently about the fact that they consider they have too many people on bridging visas - even from the Shadow immigration minister not just the current govt immigration monster. That post has  just had a new man appointed - no idea what he’s like or his opinion on parent immigration yet. 
 

Only just over 600 804s were granted last year too. Most of the 4000 annual parent  grant allowance will be given to those prepared to pay a substantial sum! 

How interesting, sounds like you're really keeping an eye on developments.

[Gemini]

On 01/01/2021 at 04:03, Quoll said:

That is exactly what my parents did for 15 years from 65 - they built a granny flat on our block, arrived in October, played golf and toured the country until March then they went home where they played golf and toured around.  They, too, looked at emigration (I'm an only) but dad had a sister who he didnt want to leave even though she was happily married and it would have been very expensive for them.  They didnt regret it in the least, they had great holidays without the stress.  They had travel insurance for the duration and brought their own medications with them for the period.  They had very little need to access the reciprocal agreement but dad did have a mini stroke one year and was very well treated by the system.  Once they were in their eighties it became more of a chore but talking to them about it while we were caring for them until early this year, they were very happy with the decisions they made - they had a good social network which stood by them to the end and they never regretted not ending their days in Australia.  Of course, it worked out well for them that when they got to nearly 90 we were in a position to be able to retire and look after them in UK, squatting in their back bedroom!

Thanks for your reply, great to have different perspectives. My dream for the past few years is that they would buy somewhere where we could build a granny flat. Sadly, they like city living so that dream is over and, as you have said, it's what happens when you can no longer fly? 

[Gemini]

15 hours ago, LindaH27 said:

Oh yes - I’m not sure I would have started my journey if I’d known the truth. At time of applying immi website was saying 18-24 months !! I’m 3.5 years in already snd still have another few years to go. Plus they have progressively reduced the number of parent visa grants available from over 7000 a couple of years ago to just 4500 now - and they haven’t met those figures for quite some time. In 2019  the ceiling  was 6000 - they only granted 4300

So frustrating for you. We made friends with a Welsh couple when we were all in Spain in December 2016, they had submitted their Parent visa application and moved to Adelaide in October 2018, I think it took just over 2 years from start to finish 

[LindaH27]

48 minutes ago, Gemini said:

Just wondering how the Parent 870 visa might fit into this? Sitting out the waiting period while on this visa? Is this even possible?

You can’t get 804 and 870 together as 870 is usually applied for offshore to allow you to be onshore- which you already would be if you went on 804 if that makes sense??!!

However If you apply for 143 you can then apply for 870 but not the other way round. The 143 and 870 can run in tandem so yes you could go to Australia then and wait.  
 

The 870 is available for 3 years ($5000 per person )  and 5 years ($10000 per person) It can be renewed for up to a total of 10 years,  after that you have to leave Australia or apply for a different visa of some sort to return/ remain, unless you have been granted your 143 visa before that time  You may have to have a medical and will be asked for private health insurance as you will not be eligible for full Medicare  or any government assistance so again you need to be fully self supporting.

The drawback is that when you reach the end of the first 870 (3 or 5 years) - you have to leave Australia for 3 months before you can reapply. The current processing time for  870 is supposed to be around 4 months as sponsor has to apply for approval first before you can submit your application. So if they have do that all over again (which they may if they need to check if the sponsor has had any changes   - we haven’t reached that point yet so no one knows what will happen) then obviously that’s in addition to the 3 months out of Australia so you would need somewhere to live for possibly 6 months or more outside of Australia

Your sponsor needs to have been in Australia for 4 years and needs annual income of nearly $84000 but this can be a joint sponsor and partner total if necessary  

An application made now for offshore parent visa 143 is likely to take around 10 years and cost well in excess of $100,000  - 2 visas plus associated medical and police clearance costs plus $14000 Assurance of Support and no claim to benefits for 10 years. In order to stay in Australia  whilst waiting for grant,  you would need two  x 5 year 870s  costing a further total of $40,000 for two people plus associated Medicals and private health insurance for all that time (which isn’t cheap for older people with medical needs) plus associated flights in and out of Australia so not a cheap way of “waiting it out”! You might get some limited health care  under RHCA though  

Basically it’s been accepted that Australia doesn’t want old people - even those who are prepared to pay highly for it - as they do not want ongoing costs for aged care and huge medical costs which are unfortunately more likely the older we get. It has  even been mentioned by Peter Dutton! They want young people to boost their economy and who will have children to raise up to further boost the economy. The whole world at present is facing a “demographic timebomb” where a rapidly ageing population  needs enormous amounts of money spent on it. 
 

We are all waiting here - some more patiently than others! I was told 18-24 months when I applied in June 2017 but  in May 2020 I was told there were 22900 people in front of me - they only allow 4500 grants per year so ... well,  do the maths- and that’s after I’ve already waited 3.5 years. 

[LindaH27]

39 minutes ago, Gemini said:

So frustrating for you. We made friends with a Welsh couple when we were all in Spain in December 2016, they had submitted their Parent visa application and moved to Adelaide in October 2018, I think it took just over 2 years from start to finish 

Not sure how they did that! Immi are only now processing June 2016!! 

[Gemini]

3 hours ago, Loopylu said:

Toots - thanks for your volunteering efforts. Australia needs more people like you.   My MIL's experience is the tip of the iceberg in some very nasty experiences I have had in my 12 years in Australia but I won't bore you with the details.  However, hopefully this goes some way to explain why I don't like living here and maybe some of the people who have posted some quite hurtful comments in response to my posts might now understand why I don't consider Australia to be paradise on earth.....

I have also volunteered a lot in Australia.  I have assisted children from very deprived backgrounds with reading and mentoring to assist them to grow, prepared statutory declarations for refugees about their experiences (very harrowing) and why they should be allowed to remain in Australia and my latest is as the risk and compliance officer for a small charity that provides overseas aid in the Asia-Pacific region. 

Anyway, I am digressing from the topic of this thread which is aged care. So to return to topic - if you are financially secure, Australia is potentially a good place to grow old provided you can either stay in your own home and pay for the support that you need or find a decent care home.  

Happy New Year Toots!

 

8 hours ago, Toots said:

Blimey!  I'll be growing old in this country and very much hope i don't end up like your mother-in-law.  Poor old soul.

I volunteer at a nursing home and I have to say the staff are lovely with the oldies.  None of the people there seem miserable but i dare say there must be some who aren't happy with how they have ended up.  I take a lovely old man in his wheelchair out for a walk.  His daughter brings his ancient dog to see him and so the old dog plods along beside us.  The old chap never says a word but I can tell he's enjoying being out.   There are trishaws to take the oldies for longer trips along cycle paths and beside the sea.  Some of the staff drop the men off at the local pub for an hour and the women get a lift to the local bingo.  

There are a few poor souls with dementia who really take a lot of looking after but the staff have endless patience with them.  

 

I know this has gone off topic from my original post about the 804 visa but is interesting to read as none of us know what our care needs will be in the future. What a wonderful post Toots. Sorry this will be another long post & I may get told off by the administrators, so read it or not, as you wish. I'm finding this forum is like a form of therapy  

I've had some experience of the UK Aged Care system here in England, it was a complete nightmare. My dad started to show signs of dementia in 2014, about 10 years after my mum had died. Me & my sister had a huge battle to even get him assessed for this, his normal GP just wanted to fob our concerns off, it was only when we got a locum that we got anywhere. He was assessed, diagnosed then we were just left to get on with things as he owned his own bungalow and didn't qualify for any means tested benefits so, no local authority help. We arranged for private daily care through an agency (We were both working full time) with lots of daily support from us as we, fortunately, lived close by. 

Things couldn't continue because, amongst other things, he'd taken to wandering off in the evenings from his home to the local betting shop! Totally out of character, he never went in betting shops before but we think he had no idea what time of day it was, went out and found that this was the only place open. Can you imagine our worry at this time! We had no idea what was going to happen next but then, at a routine health check, it was discovered he had a massive Aortic Aneurysm and was admitted to hospital immediately. The young consultant was brilliant with our dad, he described what they needed to do, draw diagrams, went over it time & time again so that dad could grasp it enough to give or deny his consent. Anyway, the operation went ahead, there were complications (he was 86) and this meant a long stay in hospital. He was discharged from there to our local care home for a convalescence period where he would be assessed to see if he could return home.  Me & my sister knew he wasn't capable and his physical strength had diminished due to hospitalisation, but the powers that be decided he was ok to send back home with carers calling 4 times a day. Within 3 days (between carers visits) he had fallen, broken his shoulder & was hospitalised again for several more weeks then sent to a community hospital for convalescence. He was even less capable by this time, me & my sister were at our wits end! No-one would tell us what was going to happen next. At this community hospital he had an excellent & very experienced Occupational Therapist who managed to get my dad to communicate his worst fear which was to die at home, alone, and that he wanted to be cared for. We were present, it was totally non - coercive, quite an achievement with a patient who has lost the ability to communicate his feelings. The OT said this then gave the green light for looking for full time care. 

My sister & I did the legwork of visiting all the care homes in the area who were able to care for dementia sufferers & had vacancies. Most of these were privately run & were dire, money making facilities at an eye watering cost which he would have to fund from the sale of his home. They were truly awful. The only care home we would be happy to send him to was the one he had been sent to at his first discharge which was run by the local authority (the fees were about a third cheaper, out of interest), but our concern was getting a well run establishment. We had a real battle with the authorities to even get him on the waiting list, basically it meant that a resident had to die, and Dad's needs deemed to be the most urgent at that time, to get the care bed offered to us. His stay at the community hospital was coming to an end, they had done all they could & the bed was needed for someone else so we thought we would be forced to move him to one of the private ones and his opportunity for a bed at the LA home would be gone forever - and then a place came up! So tragedy for one family meant an opportunity for our family. Who would ever think that your dad going into a care home would be considered the luckiest break ever!

So, he was admitted to the care home in November 2015, was happy & settled there, had a wonderful Christmas with Carol singers, a party, gifts, Christmas dinner in a trimmed up dining room and then died in January 2016. 2014/15 were probably the worst 2 years of our lives and what would have happened to Dad if we hadn't been there to fight for the care he needed? Experiences like that do make you wonder about your own situation.

[Gemini]

1 hour ago, LindaH27 said:

Not sure how they did that! Immi are only now processing June 2016!! 

I wish I could remember when they said they'd applied but it was well under 3 years at that time. They went home to Wales from Spain to pack everything up & moved out to Australia in Oct/ Nov 2018. Thanks for your comprehensive reply about the 870 visa.

 

[Tulip1]

1 hour ago, LindaH27 said:

Not sure how they did that! Immi are only now processing June 2016!! 

They mentioned it to the OP in Dec 2016 but said they’d already submitted the application. I expect they’d done it some years before they mentioned it. 

[Gemini]

42 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

They mentioned it to the OP in Dec 2016 but said they’d already submitted the application. I expect they’d done it some years before they mentioned it. 

I'm still in touch with them so will ask

[Guest The Pom Queen]

4 hours ago, Gemini said:

This is indeed my worry. When my husband was first taken ill with Rheumatoid Arthritis in 2016 he was in a great deal of pain & could barely walk so I thought it was the end of being able to fly out to Australia. The thought of being stuck here & never able to come over to see our son was just terrible. My husband's illness is under control due to medication so we are feeling the need to look at all options for the future. Our son would never come back now, the 2008 recession here sent him abroad & he knows he would struggle to find work & the lifestyle he enjoys. Our economy will be totally trashed after Covid & Brexit, he will probably be retired before it recovers. Happy Days!

It is worrying and I understand your concern. We have been in Australia 17 years this year and have never been back to the UK because family always visited. I know my husband would move back there tomorrow if I agreed but my sons are here and happy and I love Australia and could never leave.  It is hard because I’m told I will probably not manage a long haul flight with my health and my mum can’t get out here now so we are both in the position of knowing we will probably not see each other again. I really wish she had applied for the visa when she was younger. At the time she could have applied whilst she was here on holiday, meaning she could stay and not leave until she got the visa but I think they have probably closed that loophole now.

[Gemini]

6 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

It is worrying and I understand your concern. We have been in Australia 17 years this year and have never been back to the UK because family always visited. I know my husband would move back there tomorrow if I agreed but my sons are here and happy and I love Australia and could never leave.  It is hard because I’m told I will probably not manage a long haul flight with my health and my mum can’t get out here now so we are both in the position of knowing we will probably not see each other again. I really wish she had applied for the visa when she was younger. At the time she could have applied whilst she was here on holiday, meaning she could stay and not leave until she got the visa but I think they have probably closed that loophole now.

Hi, this option is still available to apply for the 804 visa & the 864 so you can see our temptation, despite the obvious drawbacks on being on a Bridging visa. I'm worried it may be withdrawn in the future. 

[Guest The Pom Queen]

8 minutes ago, Gemini said:

Hi, this option is still available to apply for the 804 visa & the 864 so you can see our temptation, despite the obvious drawbacks on being on a Bridging visa. I'm worried it may be withdrawn in the future. 

I know Mum regretted not doing it especially because she is also the last remaining relative in the UK. 

[Tulip1]

22 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

It is worrying and I understand your concern. We have been in Australia 17 years this year and have never been back to the UK because family always visited. I know my husband would move back there tomorrow if I agreed but my sons are here and happy and I love Australia and could never leave.  It is hard because I’m told I will probably not manage a long haul flight with my health and my mum can’t get out here now so we are both in the position of knowing we will probably not see each other again. I really wish she had applied for the visa when she was younger. At the time she could have applied whilst she was here on holiday, meaning she could stay and not leave until she got the visa but I think they have probably closed that loophole now.

That must be very hard for you 🥲

[Gemini]

13 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

I know Mum regretted not doing it especially because she is also the last remaining relative in the UK. 

So hard for you both

 

[Loopylu]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the governments of this world in which populations are now so mobile would put in place some sort of reciprocal social security system. Let's face it, our parents in the UK have paid their NI contributions and tax their whole lives and so, if they choose to relocate to be where there children are, they should be able take their social security "pot" to where they choose to live.  We have reciprocal healthcare and tax conventions..... Just a thought.

[Gemini]

2 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the governments of this world in which populations are now so mobile would put in place some sort of reciprocal social security system. Let's face it, our parents in the UK have paid their NI contributions and tax their whole lives and so, if they choose to relocate to be where there children are, they should be able take their social security "pot" to where they choose to live.  We have reciprocal healthcare and tax conventions..... Just a thought.

Wonderful idea! We've just lost the possibility of doing that across Europe 

[Tulip1]

16 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the governments of this world in which populations are now so mobile would put in place some sort of reciprocal social security system. Let's face it, our parents in the UK have paid their NI contributions and tax their whole lives and so, if they choose to relocate to be where there children are, they should be able take their social security "pot" to where they choose to live.  We have reciprocal healthcare and tax conventions..... Just a thought.

No one has an actual pot.  They do get to take their state pension with them. They may have paid their taxes but their children have been educated with it and they have had access to emergency services, the nhs and so on. That pot of taxes goes towards all the security and things that you get living in a first world country. It’s a nice sentiment but isn’t possible. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Tulip1

[Gemini]

9 hours ago, LindaH27 said:

Not sure how they did that! Immi are only now processing June 2016!! 

Hi, though the wonders of modern technology I've been in touch with this couple. They moved to Australia in Sep 2018 and the whole process took less than 3 years. They had been told it would take 2 years so were annoyed it took longer because they thought paying a load of money was to fast track things. They are absolutely dismayed to find it's now closer to 5 years!

[Tulip1]

1 minute ago, Gemini said:

Hi, though the wonders of modern technology I've been in touch with this couple. They moved to Australia in Sep 2018 and the whole process took less than 3 years. They had been told it would take 2 years so were annoyed it took longer because they thought paying a load of money was to fast track things. They are absolutely dismayed to find it's now closer to 5 years!

It’s not now closer to 5 years.  It’s about 10 years if you were to apply now. 

[Loopylu]

29 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

No one has an actual pot.  They do get to take their state pension with them. They may have paid their taxes but their children have been educated with it and they have had access to emergency services, the nhs and so on. That pot of taxes goes towards all the security and things that you get living in a first world country. It’s a nice sentiment but isn’t possible. 

National budgets are drawn up by reference to statistics and it would therefore be possible to allocate a notional share of the budget to an individual's social security relocation pot if governments were minded to do so. However, they want to trap us in one spot for our taxes and spending power. Perhaps we should just opt out of paying taxes like the very rich do? They don't pay their fair share but get to move around the world at will and access the best healthcare etc and they get far more respect from politicians than those of us who pay our dues to society....  At the end of the day we are still serfs but have better living conditions than those who lived in the Middle Ages.

[Tulip1]

10 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

National budgets are drawn up by reference to statistics and it would therefore be possible to allocate a notional share of the budget to an individual's social security relocation pot if governments were minded to do so. However, they want to trap us in one spot for our taxes and spending power. Perhaps we should just opt out of paying taxes like the very rich do? They don't pay their fair share but get to move around the world at will and access the best healthcare etc and they get far more respect from politicians than those of us who pay our dues to society....  At the end of the day we are still serfs but have better living conditions than those who lived in the Middle Ages.

We can’t just opt out of paying tax. Mine gets taken at source, how would you suggest I opt out. I doubt our government want to trap old people in one place as they’re likely to cost the country money to look after them.  I’m sure they’d be quite happy if they manage to bag a visa to live in Australia or anywhere else where the new country takes on that burden of cost.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Tulip1

[Loopylu]

5 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

We can’t just opt out of paying tax. Mine gets taken at source, how would you suggest I opt out. I doubt our government want to trap old people in one place as they’re likely to cost the country money to look after them.  I’m sure they’d be quite happy if they manage to bag a visa to live in Australia or anywhere else where the new country takes on that burden of cost.

I was joking when I suggested opting out of tax. You've spent too long in Australia if you can no longer detect sarcasm.

I'm in the same boat as you but if you can get a good tax accountant it is possible to substantially reduce your tax burden and lots of my lawyer colleagues do just this with negatively geared investment properties etc. 

Countries want to hang onto retirees in their earlier years (particularly the so called Boomer generation) as they have substantial spending power and relative wealth. They are great consumers and the travel industry specifically targets this demographic.  Society only wants rid when people are over 75 and their bodies start to pack up and then start to put burden on the healthcare system. 

[LindaH27]

1 hour ago, Tulip1 said:

It’s not now closer to 5 years.  It’s about 10 years if you were to apply now. 

And even up to 30 years should people  choose to go for 804 !!

[Tulip1]

8 hours ago, Loopylu said:

I was joking when I suggested opting out of tax. You've spent too long in Australia if you can no longer detect sarcasm.

I'm in the same boat as you but if you can get a good tax accountant it is possible to substantially reduce your tax burden and lots of my lawyer colleagues do just this with negatively geared investment properties etc. 

Countries want to hang onto retirees in their earlier years (particularly the so called Boomer generation) as they have substantial spending power and relative wealth. They are great consumers and the travel industry specifically targets this demographic.  Society only wants rid when people are over 75 and their bodies start to pack up and then start to put burden on the healthcare system. 

I don’t live in Australia, I live in England.  I love a bit of sarcasm. 

[ramot]

9 hours ago, Loopylu said:

I was joking when I suggested opting out of tax. You've spent too long in Australia if you can no longer detect sarcasm.

I'm in the same boat as you but if you can get a good tax accountant it is possible to substantially reduce your tax burden and lots of my lawyer colleagues do just this with negatively geared investment properties etc. 

Countries want to hang onto retirees in their earlier years (particularly the so called Boomer generation) as they have substantial spending power and relative wealth. They are great consumers and the travel industry specifically targets this demographic.  Society only wants rid when people are over 75 and their bodies start to pack up and then start to put burden on the healthcare system. 

That’s me on the scrap heap then.Made my day thank you.