eu referendum update

[Roberta2]

I follow Australian politics fairly closely, but not UK politics. Ours had been considered somewhat volatile, with five prime ministers in about six years. Certainly volatile compared with what we had been used to. But British politics now will give a new meaning to the word. I had wondered if there was scope for a Lib Dem comeback. I guess they sort of disappeared when everything was so polarized. Now it's all been blown apart, so can they start picking up the pieces? As for Boris, what's Latin and Greek for the Law of Unintended Consequences? The Greeks of course have plenty to say about hubris.

[Gbye grey sky]

I really don't think he intended to win, and he has been very quiet since. You would expect him to march forth and take the reins , but there is a distinct look of, 'oh ****, what do I do now ' on his face. Incidentally, his father is very pro Europe , and Boris was very pro Europe . I'm assuming the plan was to fire a shot accross the bows with a close remain vote so they could try and renegotiate from a position of strength. (I believe gove wanted to leave, as did most others, but Boris had his own agenda, too clever by half). From this renegotiation, Boris was to take over the Tory leadership.

 

In a classic, 'you were only meant to blow the bloody doors off moment ', he has captured the spirit of the nation, and we only left didn't we! Now he has to break it too the nation that leave doesn't mean leave. Not in the sense that people voted for. That won't go down well. There may be riots in some parts of the country. I can see a vote of no confidence and an election within a year. Good opportunity for a lib dem told you so come back.

 

So, we have the choice between year zero pol pot scenario and free movement, still paying money to eu, member in everything but name.

 

What a farce. And to think we let these people run the country.

 

Both leave and remain voters have a right to feel very bitter about this.

 

This is exactly how I have read this.

 

But I still blame the people who followed the anti-foreigners line so readily. I fear that we have not moved so far from the 1930s as I thought. In fact despite the worst depression the people of England dismissed Moseley and his fascists.

[WeegieDave]

Now the UK left the EU the UK can trade with Australia (and NZ, India, the rest of the world) without having to impose duties. Under the umbrella of the EU the UK had to impose duties since there is no trade agreement with Australia (NZ and India) because several member states like France and Italy veto-ed these agreements time and again to protect their ailing industries...

Pro EU people claim EU is good for trade yet countries like Switzerland, Norway entered into far more (favourable) trade agreements than the EU over the same period due to the fact that there always is a member state veto-ing an agreement to protect their own interests.

 

But according to many on here, everyone who voted out is a far right, racist knuckle dragger. Away and bury your patronising head somewhere!

[Gbye grey sky]

Now the UK left the EU the UK can trade with Australia (and NZ, India, the rest of the world) without having to impose duties. Under the umbrella of the EU the UK had to impose duties since there is no trade agreement with Australia (NZ and India) because several member states like France and Italy veto-ed these agreements time and again to protect their ailing industries...

Pro EU people claim EU is good for trade yet countries like Switzerland, Norway entered into far more (favourable) trade agreements than the EU over the same period due to the fact that there always is a member state veto-ing an agreement to protect their own interests.

 

But according to many on here, everyone who voted out is a far right, racist knuckle dragger. Away and bury your patronising head somewhere!

 

You are right of course. I am sure most Leave voters were concerned about tariffs and duties on goods imported from India and Australia. Assuming that this isn't another made-up 'fact' from the Leave camp.

[Roberta2]

I wonder whether the election of Siddique Khan as Mayor of London made things worse. i.e. the gap between London and Most of the Rest became even more glaring? On immigration and a host of other issues.

[flag of convenience]

I listened very carefully to Boris when he first threw his hat into the Leave campaign. He indicated then that a Leave vote would drag the EU back to the negotiating table as Cameron got so little from his negotiating.

 

He was also increasingly quiet later on especially once immigration became the single issue that Leave focussed on in the last couple of weeks campaigning. I suspect he started to see that this was a runaway train. I don't think he realised the groundswell of hatred and bigotry that the campaign would generate.

 

Boris's reign over London was a disaster for working people. It was completely at odds with his latent policy of speaking out for ordinary people. The forced transmigration out of London of hundreds of thousands of council housed folk to the wilds of the provinces and sell of council land to developers and continue to allow mostly foreign money out bid native Londoners for a home goes a long way to show the double faced behaviour of the man.

[flag of convenience]

I wonder whether the election of Siddique Khan as Mayor of London made things worse. i.e. the gap between London and Most of the Rest became even more glaring? On immigration and a host of other issues.

 

London is by tradition a left of centre city. Khan a breathe of fresh air after Johnson. The gap within London was bad enough. Still most areas voted to Remain. The further from the centre especially Essex localities the mood was indeed sour.

[Roberta2]

Australia's trade with Britain is now less than 3% of our total trade. There are very few people here who don't thing this is an unmitigated disaster. The only politician who supported it was former prime minister John Howard. He is widely regarded as being pickled in aspic. Not even former prime minister Tony Abbott supported Brexit. Howard, to my knowledge, has not said a thing lately. He is no longer responsible for running anything anyway. As to the Norwegians - have they not warned Britain of the dangers of emulating them. Yes, the UK might still enjoy the benefits of free trade, but it will no longer have any say in setting the rules.

[Quokka2005]

I met a aussie guy the other day who was having a meltdown and said we dont know what we've just started.

 

Just walked past this at the currency place. Wish i was taking money back rather than transferring here

[BacktoDemocracy]

The best thing to come out of this would be for Juncker and his cronies to get out and the whole EU reformed whereby we share trade and controlled migration. As it is it seems that the EU body is a corrupt and capitalist organisation. The sad thing is that Britain and Europe now seems divided and this is the fault of not only past and present British politicians but European leaders and the EU itself.

 

Surely if the EU give the UK such a hard time in negotiations then this would not help their cause at all, it would only prove to the other doubters what a bullying organisation they really are and give even more power to the far right groups. Best thing is to let the dust settle and no one to make any rash decisions. None of those European leaders want to destroy their relationship with the UK, it will probably only be the bitter, spiteful EU leaders who do.

I don't think English speaking people understand the depth of commitment to the ideals of the EU that there is on mainland Europe, people see themselves as European and there is a lot of anger at the UK for fuelling xenophobia and encouraging the rise of the right.

There is a much greater depth of feeling and commitment to the ideals of the EU borne out of almost folkloric knowledge of the consequences of 2 WW's, go to any village in France and see the war memorials, travel across the continent and see the war cemeteries, here in the UK we think we have a monopoly on the wars and suffering but we have not been occupied, Europe has and they do not want that to ever happen again, so our voting out over free movement of people is seen as an affront to the ideals that the EU grew from and an insult to the people of Europe.

English newspapers are a disgrace, they denigrate and dehumanise people to the extent that it becomes acceptable to deny people's humanity and to exclude them from compassion, understanding and help, we bang on about how we fought to keep the world free and then treat war refugees worse than animals whilst individuals and companies find every which way to avoid paying taxes and then divert our attention from their greed by blaming the poor and the refugees for the regime of austerity that their tax dodging imposes on us.

The EU is an imperfect organisation as all organisations are but to just bin it because of its imperfections is utter crassness and I hope that people will hang their heads as the implications become clear, and as for BoJo and Gove I hope they get the jobs they were after because it will be entertaining to see them have the responsibility for clearing this sh*t up.

[BacktoDemocracy]

I really don't think he intended to win, and he has been very quiet since. You would expect him to march forth and take the reins , but there is a distinct look of, 'oh ****, what do I do now ' on his face. Incidentally, his father is very pro Europe , and Boris was very pro Europe . I'm assuming the plan was to fire a shot accross the bows with a close remain vote so they could try and renegotiate from a position of strength. (I believe gove wanted to leave, as did most others, but Boris had his own agenda, too clever by half). From this renegotiation, Boris was to take over the Tory leadership.

 

In a classic, 'you were only meant to blow the bloody doors off moment ', he has captured the spirit of the nation, and we only left didn't we! Now he has to break it too the nation that leave doesn't mean leave. Not in the sense that people voted for. That won't go down well. There may be riots in some parts of the country. I can see a vote of no confidence and an election within a year. Good opportunity for a lib dem told you so come back.

 

So, we have the choice between year zero pol pot scenario and free movement, still paying money to eu, member in everything but name.

 

What a farce. And to think we let these people run the country.

 

Both leave and remain voters have a right to feel very bitter about this.

Very insightful and chillingly accurate.

[BacktoDemocracy]

I follow Australian politics fairly closely, but not UK politics. Ours had been considered somewhat volatile, with five prime ministers in about six years. Certainly volatile compared with what we had been used to. But British politics now will give a new meaning to the word. I had wondered if there was scope for a Lib Dem comeback. I guess they sort of disappeared when everything was so polarized. Now it's all been blown apart, so can they start picking up the pieces? As for Boris, what's Latin and Greek for the Law of Unintended Consequences? The Greeks of course have plenty to say about hubris.

'Cavea actionum eventus taurum 'might do it

[BacktoDemocracy]

I follow Australian politics fairly closely, but not UK politics. Ours had been considered somewhat volatile, with five prime ministers in about six years. Certainly volatile compared with what we had been used to. But British politics now will give a new meaning to the word. I had wondered if there was scope for a Lib Dem comeback. I guess they sort of disappeared when everything was so polarized. Now it's all been blown apart, so can they start picking up the pieces? As for Boris, what's Latin and Greek for the Law of Unintended Consequences? The Greeks of course have plenty to say about hubris.

 

Now the UK left the EU the UK can trade with Australia (and NZ, India, the rest of the world) without having to impose duties. Under the umbrella of the EU the UK had to impose duties since there is no trade agreement with Australia (NZ and India) because several member states like France and Italy veto-ed these agreements time and again to protect their ailing industries...

Pro EU people claim EU is good for trade yet countries like Switzerland, Norway entered into far more (favourable) trade agreements than the EU over the same period due to the fact that there always is a member state veto-ing an agreement to protect their own interests.

 

But according to many on here, everyone who voted out is a far right, racist knuckle dragger. Away and bury your patronising head somewhere!

 

Just tell me what we are going to be queuing up to buy from all these leading edge countries and how they are going to transport it cheaply enough for them to be competitive, oh, I just thought of something, that fantastic pollutant , COAL.

We can sell them computers, mobile phones, hoovers, oh, I forgot we don't make those.

[Roberta2]

I forgot to mention that Norway has had to agree to free migration, no?

[BacktoDemocracy]

Does anyone think that we are seeing a right wing coup by the leave campaign, is this more than what it appears, there are people in the Tories who have expressed pretty extreme views at times and who are quite frightening people, have they used this opportunity to seize power legitimately, are we ready for some pretty radical steps to the right.

People like Redwood, Rees Mogg, Lord Lansley, Hunt, this could be their dream come true to butcher the NHS, almost certainly Human Rights and working rights legislation is for the dustbin, I would expect full academisation of schools will be back on and I wouldn't be surprised if builders are released from any requirement to provide low cost housing, biggest windfall for the leave campaign will be that they won't have to comply with EU clean air requirements so Oxford St will remain one of the most polluted shopping streets in Europe.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Aah well, just thought of an upside, no punitively expensive nuclear power station in conjunction with the French and bye-bye hideously expensive HS2 rail project, both Georgie Porgies pet projects, what's the odds on Cross rail 2 and a 2nd Heathrow runway, there's always an upside.

Might be a bit of downer though when Fracking gets a permanent green light.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Well just reading that the rescue of the Welsh steel industry might be seriously compromised by the exit, nice one Wales, not just a shot in one foot, no you have to make doubly sure , shots in both feet, no EU social funding and no steel industry, WTF!!!!!

[Gbye grey sky]

Well just reading that the rescue of the Welsh steel industry might be seriously compromised by the exit, nice one Wales, not just a shot in one foot, no you have to make doubly sure , shots in both feet, no EU social funding and no steel industry, WTF!!!!!

 

I have to say that the only shock for me with the referendum was the voting in Wales. This is the area that gets sweet FA from the Tories in Westminster and so much regeneration cash that it dwarfs their tiny EU contribution. And they see very few EU migrants.

[Quokka2005]

Me too. I wasnt expecting that one

[Roberta2]

Well, the Labour Party had better get itself an electable leader, lickety-spit. What folly it was to open up the leadership election to anyone willing to spend a quid or two. Left wing populism was the inevitable result. Back to the bad old days of Michael Foot. The Welsh Windbag will indeed be rolling in his grave. With a better leader, the Labour Party may have been able to prevent this disaster. It's not just Boris! Plenty of folly and miscalculation all round. Populism - either of the left or right- is the enemy of democracy. We have ours here, of course. Not least in Queensland. But the leaders of both major political parties are now aware of this, and and with luck the populists will be kept in their boxes. (Praying that Pauline Hanson does not get to control the balance of power in the Senate. She's still banging on about Muslims, Chinese etc.) Poor Queen. Her 90th birthday celebration, which seemed to be going so well, has turned to dross, as the UK breaks up before her eyes. Not that I'm a monarchist, but...

[Rallyman]

I have to say that the only shock for me with the referendum was the voting in Wales. This is the area that gets sweet FA from the Tories in Westminster and so much regeneration cash that it dwarfs their tiny EU contribution. And they see very few EU migrants.

 

 

So you have lived in Wales then to comment what it's like , the area I was from certainly contained many EU migrants , not that I was against it , although there were problems and continue to be,

[Gbye grey sky]

So you have lived in Wales then to comment what it's like , the area I was from certainly contained many EU migrants , not that I was against it , although there were problems and continue to be,

 

What area was that?

[Ken]

Not sure why everyone's talking about Brexit as if it will definitely take place. The most fundamental point of the British Constitution is the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty. The referendum is not binding on Parliament and it's clearly going to be a challenge to get this bill through Parliament. With voters split 52:48 (and remainers the majority in may constituencies) many MPs will have no difficulty voting against the referendum result (especially when combined with news reports saying that 1.1million who voted to leave have already changed their minds).

[Gbye grey sky]

Not sure why everyone's talking about Brexit as if it will definitely take place. The most fundamental point of the British Constitution is the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty. The referendum is not binding on Parliament and it's clearly going to be a challenge to get this bill through Parliament. With voters split 52:48 (and remainers the majority in may constituencies) many MPs will have no difficulty voting against the referendum result (especially when combined with news reports saying that 1.1million who voted to leave have already changed their minds).

 

It does not require Parliamentary approval.

[Ken]

It does not require Parliamentary approval.

 

Yes it does. Without that it would be unconstitutional. Parliament cannot be bound by anyone other than itself.