Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Tink,Do you believe people should be able to just move around and live wherever they please ? No borders. Like the way the Roma people live in Europe ? ........why not if they enrich society.... .......cause no harm...... ........prove their worth and contribute to the society they choose to live in...... ........not quite the same though is it....! ........we are talking about givving a chance to those who have no choice,......denied basic human rights...... ........the thread is about compassion for those in such a plight..... .........not some wandering romany's....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 It is also about a country's sovereignty and right to protect its borders. I suppose if everyone was so worthy as you imply then maybe it would be acceptable but it is a pipedream. Not everyone is worthy or will contribute to society. Many are a threat too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 It is also about a country's sovereignty and right to protect its borders. I suppose if everyone was so worthy as you imply then maybe it would be acceptable but it is a pipedream. Not everyone is worthy or will contribute to society. Many are a threat too. ........how sad PC........a pipe dream ...! ........I think and hope not..... ........because unless we change our attitudes to the less fortunate...... ........lobby our governments to act...... ........the world will get worse....... ........when we have no compassion for the less fortunate.....when we guard greedily our fortunes......our borders... .........we cease to have respect for basic human needs......mine...never yours...! .........no.....not everyone will contribute...... .........but advocating more to do less...... .........is a turn in the wrong direction.......IMO...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Its no good mentioning 'Human Rights' Tink, they're SO last century! What about the inalienable right of conservative governments to screw the little guy in the name of captalism? Complete rubbish. If that was true, then the worst countries on the planet would always be those ones governed by Conservative governments, embracing capitalism. And of course, 'the little guys' would never try to come to those countries. In fact, they would be fleeing them to try to reach sanctuary in more enlightened countries. And those countries are.........? And why are human rights less in the 21st century than they were in the 20th century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 All men are created equal Tink. Then some go out and work hard, get quals, experience and more options. Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is not being taken away from the refugees. They are pursuing happiness as we speak. There is no guarantee from the "creator" or anyone else that they are going to achieve it. Pursue to your hearts content. .......but not all men are given equal opportunity...... .......life is made up of chances..... .......choosing.....for some.... .......but sadly no choice for others......... ........there are no guarantees ....admittedly..... ........but who has the right to deny another .....a chance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 It is also about a country's sovereignty and right to protect its borders. I suppose if everyone was so worthy as you imply then maybe it would be acceptable but it is a pipedream. Not everyone is worthy or will contribute to society. Many are a threat too. We live in the world of the nation state, rightly or wrongly. I doubt if there is any nation that allows unimpeded access across its borders. The 'Roma', at least in the UK, seem to do everything to trample on other peoples' rights, 'invading' a village, setting up camp anywhere they choose, then leaving the place they camped, looking worse than a rubbish dump. Most of us do try and live our lives, the (small 'l) liberal tradition, respecting other peoples' rights. Harpo and Co like to portray anybody who votes for the LNP as a heartless bastard who cares nothing for the poor and disadvantaged of the world, whether in Australia or anywhere else in the world. I have always tried to donate some of my income to charity - 104 quid a month to two hospices in the UK - and I like to patronise charity shops here in Australia. I take an interest in my fellow citizens, trying to help where I can. But what some people are proposing is ridiculous. In theory, if I can live on $30 000 per year, then every single person in Australia who has paid their mortgage off could live on that, and donate the rest of their income to charities. If just one million home owners in Australia were to offer a room in their home each, then one million refugees and asylum seekers could be accomodated. And if we could take in one million, just think how many the UK, Germany, the USA, etc, could accomodate! Or perhaps we should elect, via the UN, a world parliament to run our global society. No wars, no need for armies, no need to waste money on arms, and enough food to feed the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 ........how sad PC........a pipe dream ...!........I think and hope not..... ........because unless we change our attitudes to the less fortunate...... ........lobby our governments to act...... ........the world will get worse....... ........when we have no compassion for the less fortunate.....when we guard greedily our fortunes......our borders... .........we cease to have respect for basic human needs......mine...never yours...! .........no.....not everyone will contribute...... .........but advocating more to do less...... .........is a turn in the wrong direction.......IMO...! But the world has NOT got worse. in the 20th century the Western democracies largely destroyed the threat of fascism and Nazism, and they have also largely seen off the threat of communism. Former fascist dictatorships like Germany, Japan, and Italy are mostly robust democracies. We now face a threat from the likes of ISIS, but I don 't see why the world is on a downward spiral to disaster, and nothing like the threats we faced in say, 1914, 1939, or during The Cold War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 That would be a fine gesture but I have no doubt that if they do or if they had you and others would immediately slam the response as woefully inadequate given the scale of the issue. What then happens once you have taken 1000 and there are more people still out at sea on boats. My concern is that solving the immediate problem is simply a matter of getting this off the TV screens and off the media radar. The immediate concern is as always providing refuge and assistance for people whose life is in peril. A meeting is being held called by Thailand, which hopefully gets the ball rolling at least into longer term solutions. What happens when 1000 are taken from the boats presently at sea, will be other countries USA the largest number, but others as well will take the remainder, as happened during similar incidents during the Indo Chinese flight on larger vessels while longer term solutions were sought. This particular group beyond doubt faces persecution and worse in their 'home' country Burma, as solutions need to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 That's the point though Tink. Unfortunately some animals (and human beings) will always be more equal than others. Animals simply because they are bigger, faster and can eat the unlucky slower, weaker ones and humans because they've been lucky to be in the right place and got qualifications and experience. Humans .. because wealth, the colour of your culture and govt policies that favour the richer classes with more assets dictate your survival chances.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 But the world has NOT got worse. in the 20th century the Western democracies largely destroyed the threat of fascism and Nazism, and they have also largely seen off the threat of communism. Former fascist dictatorships like Germany, Japan, and Italy are mostly robust democracies. We now face a threat from the likes of ISIS, but I don 't see why the world is on a downward spiral to disaster, and nothing like the threats we faced in say, 1914, 1939, or during The Cold War. .......any threat to life .....is wrong...! .......we may have solved some world problems..... .......but the one of asylum seekers is here and now..... .......and attitudes are worse......IMO...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 But the world has NOT got worse. in the 20th century the Western democracies largely destroyed the threat of fascism and Nazism, and they have also largely seen off the threat of communism. Former fascist dictatorships like Germany, Japan, and Italy are mostly robust democracies. We now face a threat from the likes of ISIS, but I don 't see why the world is on a downward spiral to disaster, and nothing like the threats we faced in say, 1914, 1939, or during The Cold War. Just a shame that some of the so called western democracies took on policies more suited to fascism, especially since the demise of communism, which for decades assisted in keeping some of the worst excesses of the capitalism at bay or under control. The threats are more likely to come from within, the hardest enemy to defeat, which has in part already been seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Humans .. because wealth, the colour of your culture and govt policies that favour the richer classes with more assets dictate your survival chances.. They do indeed. Worth remembering also with the unravelling of large elements of the welfare safety net to wild applause from deluded working classes, the battle is increasing turning internally. What is the international figure? the top wealthiest 65 own as much as the bottom 3.5 billion. Insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Humans .. because wealth, the colour of your culture and govt policies that favour the richer classes with more assets dictate your survival chances.. Rather than the good old days when how fast you were, how good a shot for hunting and how tough your tribe was dictated how long you would survive. Just how it is Gee. We have to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 We live in the world of the nation state, rightly or wrongly. I doubt if there is any nation that allows unimpeded access across its borders. The 'Roma', at least in the UK, seem to do everything to trample on other peoples' rights, 'invading' a village, setting up camp anywhere they choose, then leaving the place they camped, looking worse than a rubbish dump. Most of us do try and live our lives, the (small 'l) liberal tradition, respecting other peoples' rights. Harpo and Co like to portray anybody who votes for the LNP as a heartless bastard who cares nothing for the poor and disadvantaged of the world, whether in Australia or anywhere else in the world. I have always tried to donate some of my income to charity - 104 quid a month to two hospices in the UK - and I like to patronise charity shops here in Australia. I take an interest in my fellow citizens, trying to help where I can. But what some people are proposing is ridiculous. In theory, if I can live on $30 000 per year, then every single person in Australia who has paid their mortgage off could live on that, and donate the rest of their income to charities. If just one million home owners in Australia were to offer a room in their home each, then one million refugees and asylum seekers could be accomodated. And if we could take in one million, just think how many the UK, Germany, the USA, etc, could accomodate! Or perhaps we should elect, via the UN, a world parliament to run our global society. No wars, no need for armies, no need to waste money on arms, and enough food to feed the whole world. Nation state? Hardly. Scotland just voted to remain within the Union and Europe since the war has increasingly moved away from the sovereign state towards collective. Ever more talk of Australia and New Zealand becoming ever further entwined and Asean has made noises of greater connection. Fact being the single nation, unless a power like China and a few others will find it increasingly difficult to influence or defend their position if not in a block of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Rather than the good old days when how fast you were, how good a shot for hunting and how tough your tribe was dictated how long you would survive. Just how it is Gee. We have to adapt. In that case Australians have done remarkably poorly at adapting to their environment. Most urbanised land mass on earth, with a population clustered around a few ill coping cities. Perhaps too late to adapt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Rather than the good old days when how fast you were, how good a shot for hunting and how tough your tribe was dictated how long you would survive. Just how it is Gee. We have to adapt. Its now the 21st century if you compare the chances of a baby born to a family of accountants living in Dalkeith vs a baby born to a displaced couple in the Kimberleys.. you do the math.. ...adapt you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Humans .. because wealth, the colour of your culture and govt policies that favour the richer classes with more assets dictate your survival chances.. So you are saying that the 'lot' of the poorer person in society has got steadily worse, rather than better, since, say, Medieval times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 .......any threat to life .....is wrong...!.......we may have solved some world problems..... .......but the one of asylum seekers is here and now..... .......and attitudes are worse......IMO...! An opinion, but not an argument. After the Second World War, there were millions of displaced people and refugees, far less than today, and neither have we faced 'world-wide war' on the scale of 1914-18 or 1939-1945. In my opinion, many of the nasty countries in the world could. instead of blaming 'The West' for all their problems, try and take some responsiblity for their own problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just a shame that some of the so called western democracies took on policies more suited to fascism, especially since the demise of communism, which for decades assisted in keeping some of the worst excesses of the capitalism at bay or under control. The threats are more likely to come from within, the hardest enemy to defeat, which has in part already been seen. Which specific fascist policies have the 'so called ' Western Democracies adopted? Suspension of democracy? Banning of all other political parties, executing thousands of dissidents, and sending tens of thousands more to 'The Gulag?' Invading their neighbours? Communism is and was as bad as fascism, witness the number of their own people killed by the USSR, far more than Hitler could even have dreamed of killing, but unfortuately so many naive 'fellow travellers' in the West venerated 'Comrade Stalin.' Democracy was the check on Communism, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So you are saying that the 'lot' of the poorer person in society has got steadily worse, rather than better, since, say, Medieval times? No .. But we can attest that the present western model has not solved the issue of poverty, homeless, economic racism .. despite the huge amount present wealth accumulation by the select few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 That would be a fine gesture but I have no doubt that if they do or if they had you and others would immediately slam the response as woefully inadequate given the scale of the issue. What then happens once you have taken 1000 and there are more people still out at sea on boats. My concern is that solving the immediate problem is simply a matter of getting this off the TV screens and off the media radar. The tone of your posts on this thread is very Orwellian if I may say so. Reading your and others' posts, stating that it is morally just to sentence 1000s of people to death, I feel like poor old Wilson, refusing to believe that 2+2 equals 5. 'Sending people to their death IS the compassionate thing to do!' Maybe by the time I can say that and MEAN it, I'll truly love Big Brother. Meanwhile I'm in room 101, reading poms in bloody oz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 They need to be helped back to Myanmar obviously. That is not sentencing anyone to death. There are 1.1 million Rohingyas in Burma. So I'm not sure whether you think we should take them all. But they will keep coming of course if we keep accepting them. Who was it who said Build it and they will come ? It is similar when you start accepting Asylum Seekers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The tone of your posts on this thread is very Orwellian if I may say so. Reading your and others' posts, stating that it is morally just to sentence 1000s of people to death, I feel like poor old Wilson, refusing to believe that 2+2 equals 5. 'Sending people to their death IS the compassionate thing to do!' Maybe by the time I can say that and MEAN it, I'll truly love Big Brother. Meanwhile I'm in room 101, reading poms in bloody oz! I read your posts as sentencing thousands to death too but these will be faceless people out of sight of the media on unseaworthy vessels encouraged by false hope. You seem to be in denial about the impact of allowing these people entry into Australia on the tens or hundreds of thousands of would-be migrants that would inevitably follow them. I would want the people you are highlighting to be rescued and returned to a place of safety if one can be found. I don't profess to know the answers but I disagree with your contention that it is a problem that is caused by the Australian Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 In that case Australians have done remarkably poorly at adapting to their environment. Most urbanised land mass on earth, with a population clustered around a few ill coping cities. Perhaps too late to adapt? In your opinion obviously flag. A few ill coping cities:laugh: They are some of the nicest, well designed cities I've ever been to, not noticed any of them not coping well. Interesting on the radio this morning the Islamic Council Founding president was on calling for tightening of Australia's immigration policies, admitting that Muslims integrated into Aus better a couple of generations ago and saying that the Council had been almost taken over by radicals. Mr Sali also said there was a widening gulf between Muslims who had integrated into Australian society and those who had not. Audio: Calls from within Muslim community to tighten migration policies to counter Islamic State threat (AM) "Sometimes the truth has to be faced and if the truth is awkward, then it has to be faced anyway, and I really do believe we have to be more careful about who we let into this country and who we grant refugee status to, because I think it's just getting beyond a joke quite frankly," he said. "There are people who unfortunately don't appreciate the great freedom that we have in this nation and the opportunities that are available if people live by the law and do the right thing." He said a classic example was Sydney siege shooter Man Haron Monis, the self-styled radical cleric with a violent past who he said Australian authorities "tolerated to the nth degree". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The tone of your posts on this thread is very Orwellian if I may say so. Reading your and others' posts, stating that it is morally just to sentence 1000s of people to death, I feel like poor old Wilson, refusing to believe that 2+2 equals 5. 'Sending people to their death IS the compassionate thing to do!' Maybe by the time I can say that and MEAN it, I'll truly love Big Brother. Meanwhile I'm in room 101, reading poms in bloody oz! I still do not understand what you want Harpo? Is the Australian government responsible for every single refugee/asylum seeker/illegal immigranst in the entire Southern Hemisphere? You still will not suggest any concrete suggestions as to how we would process the tens of thousands of people you would like to see admitted to Australia. How will we house them for a start, unless we build more and more 'detention centres' which you are opposed to, so, where will we house them? Should the Australian government divert funds from other schemes to take over hotels and appartment buildings? It would not matter to you if Australia increased its official refugee intake by a thousand percent. It still would not be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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