Parley Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Good rant, but IMO it was incomplete: you missed out the bit about the 'need to save lives at sea' Agreed. By the end of his 2nd term Tony Abbott will have saved at least 1200 lives which was the number killed under Rudd and Gillard in 2 terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I do feel for these people whether they are persecuted or so beset by poverty and lack of opportunity that they are willing to risk their lives in the hope of salvation. My problem with it all is that for every poor soul on these boats there are a thousand more to follow. Ultimately you will never be able to take them all so what do you do? If you put a number on it then what do you do once that number has been reached and there are still people dying on boats? Its a human tragedy for sure but the true blame is rarely if ever levied at the countries and regimes that are responsible. Agreed. By the end of his 2nd term Tony Abbott will have saved at least 1200 lives which was the number killed under Rudd and Gillard in 2 terms. ...........blame.....? ...........by doing nothing to help.......we are as much to blame....! ...........take in how many....? ...........do numbers have to count when doing good..... ...........where can you say enough......? ...........look for answers........not questions......there are enough of those.... ............push our government to try......not just put these people in the too hard basket.... ............and no we didn't.....save .....1200 lives...! ............we denied 1200 people the chance .....to change the despicable ones they have.... .............we didn't offer an answer.......we just didn't answer the question..... .............nothing to be proud of.....imo...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 1200 men women and children drowned under the open borders policy Tink. We must never go back to those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 1200 men women and children drowned under the open borders policy Tink.We must never go back to those days. .........so to do nothing.... .........just deny the only choice of the desperate is right...? .........no alternative...... .........just shut the door with no thought or compassion..... .........two wrongs will never .....make a right....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Tink, what is needed is for the international community to address the issues in the home countries. It is never going to work to think that other countries can take people limitless people from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar etc. That doesn't solve anything and just encourages people to risk their lives on a dream of a better life in a wealthier country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Tink, what is needed is for the international community to address the issues in the home countries.It is never going to work to think that other countries can take people limitless people from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar etc. That doesn't solve anything and just encourages people to risk their lives on a dream of a better life in a wealthier country. ........and as part of that.....community....! ........we need to do more......find solutions..... ........solve the problem...... .........because the desperate .....will not....can not......see past.....life ,a chance ........or death and fear..... .........which would you choose......with no offer of another choice..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I'm alright Jack...sod the rest....I can't fathom that kind of attitude. Don't let them in they'll ruin it for us all! It just doesn't compute in my brain. Who knows what good 'boat people' can do in a country....I remember reading interviews with people who cam where escaping all sorts in the 60s and 70s and they have settled, made a life and a positive contribution. You can't just shut your eyes to atrocities because it's convenient to do so....additionally, it's not the job of posters on a forum to find better solutions...its the job of the democratically elected government of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 I'm alright Jack...sod the rest....I can't fathom that kind of attitude. Don't let them in they'll ruin it for us all! It just doesn't compute in my brain. Who knows what good 'boat people' can do in a country....I remember reading interviews with people who cam where escaping all sorts in the 60s and 70s and they have settled, made a life and a positive contribution. You can't just shut your eyes to atrocities because it's convenient to do so....additionally, it's not the job of posters on a forum to find better solutions...its the job of the democratically elected government of the time. Its truly sickening isn't it Fi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Its truly sickening isn't it Fi? I find it sad more than anything. Sad and a reflection of what really matters to people and their priorities. It's insular thinking. We exist as part of a collective, a collective of humans, we are meant to assist not turn our backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Meanwhile hundreds of men, women and children are left to die, do you not think Australia, the richest country in the region, needs to take responsibility for setting the precedent? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The only way to save lives is to stop the boats. Stopping the boats kills the people smuggling business model and means the deaths and drownings stop. This has happened in Australia and the Australian model is being adopted worldwide it seems. Even the EU are looking to adopted the model to save the thousands dying in the attempt to cross from Africa to Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 .........so to do nothing.............just deny the only choice of the desperate is right...? .........no alternative...... .........just shut the door with no thought or compassion..... .........two wrongs will never .....make a right....! As much as I would like to agree with you Tink, in a perfect world, where everyone just wanted to get on with everyone else and just make a good life for themselves it would be fine. But in the real world, where a lot of these people are fleeing where they have lived for centuries, because of the problems brought on by their own countrymen, beliefs, tribal warfare and power hungry warmongers the only solution is for them to stand as a nation and sort out their own countries. Not spread their hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world so we are just one gigantic warmongering mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 As much as I would like to agree with you Tink, in a perfect world, where everyone just wanted to get on with everyone else and just make a good life for themselves it would be fine. But in the real world, where a lot of these people are fleeing where they have lived for centuries, because of the problems brought on by their own countrymen, beliefs, tribal warfare and power hungry warmongers the only solution is for them to stand as a nation and sort out their own countries. Not spread their hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world so we are just one gigantic warmongering mess. They are escaping oppression. They are not intent in continuing the oppression they are escaping from. Did the Vietnamese boat people bring in... "hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world" to Australia in the late 70s? No they have been instrumental in introducing a hard working ethic.. more so than other 'migrants ' from western countries have brought in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 They are escaping oppression. They are not intent in continuing the oppression they are escaping from. Did the Vietnamese boat people bring in... "hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world" to Australia in the late 70s? No they have been instrumental in introducing a hard working ethic.. more so than other 'migrants ' from western countries have brought in. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 The only way to save lives is to stop the boats.Stopping the boats kills the people smuggling business model and means the deaths and drownings stop. This has happened in Australia and the Australian model is being adopted worldwide it seems. Even the EU are looking to adopted the model to save the thousands dying in the attempt to cross from Africa to Italy. As much as I would like to agree with you Tink, in a perfect world, where everyone just wanted to get on with everyone else and just make a good life for themselves it would be fine. But in the real world, where a lot of these people are fleeing where they have lived for centuries, because of the problems brought on by their own countrymen, beliefs, tribal warfare and power hungry warmongers the only solution is for them to stand as a nation and sort out their own countries. Not spread their hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world so we are just one gigantic warmongering mess. ..........aaaarrrrggggghhhhhh! ...........moral high ground Australia........saved lives by stopping the boats...! ...........the fact that so many are dieing where they are is of no consequence..? ...........or living without basic needs.......living in fear......persecuted..... ...........but we've saved a few by denying them hope........no other alternative.....just the one chance they have to escape...! ...........a perfect world.........starts with just one jesture.... ...........so many of us left a country that didn't meet our needs.... ............did we stay and try to make a difference....? .............no.......we left for somewhere easier...... .............did we bring our hate ,problems,incompatibility with us....? .............and then think we have the right to deny others the same..... ..............theresaword for that........escapes me( lucky me,some don't have that chance)......atm...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 No. Very much a YES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Australia does/should have the moral high ground in such matters but sadly a nation in moral demise on many fronts. If those claiming still any pretence that the harsh measures implemented on seekers of asylum were anyhow connected to the saving of lives can be now further dismissed out of hand, with the Abbott backing of Malaysia/Indonesia/Thailand policies of keeping the flimsy boats at sea oblivious to the danger posed to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 They are escaping oppression. They are not intent in continuing the oppression they are escaping from. Did the Vietnamese boat people bring in... "hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world" to Australia in the late 70s? No they have been instrumental in introducing a hard working ethic.. more so than other 'migrants ' from western countries have brought in. I'd love to think that's all there was to it but there are a lot of them economic migrants. The Vietnamese didn't have an axe to grind with the Western World when they came here, like a lot of the current refugees. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. I wouldn't say the Vietnamese are any more hard working than anyone else coming in. A lot of them have been exploited by big business and their own countrymen and used as cheap labour. A few of them featured on 4 corners a couple of weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 They are escaping oppression. They are not intent in continuing the oppression they are escaping from. Did the Vietnamese boat people bring in... "hate, incompatibility, problems, beliefs all over the rest of the world" to Australia in the late 70s? No they have been instrumental in introducing a hard working ethic.. more so than other 'migrants ' from western countries have brought in. We had a government then, Conservative that was led by a statesman in the frame of Fraser. Not a populist as today who changes according to the polls whose main concern is remaining in power and appealing to the lowest common denominator and as the budget prior to this selling it as a national emergency. Even Fraser had a little prompting from USA but once mind made up Fraser was a very active part of the international resettlement issue. Even right wing mags at the time like The Economist had a front cover of Boat People at sea with the heading, Please Don't Say No. The Asian countries reluctantly allowed temporally refuge but pressured the West to increase intakes. It wasn't al plan sailing and the Viet's were hardly welcomed with open arms in Australia. The same types were out then but more forceful and racist in tone. British right wing press hardly much better. The Daily Express I recall had a headline, All For Britain. That entailed some 300 that were flown in after rescue by a British merchant vessel on the high seas. Many countries had a policy to take so many per year. France, Canada, USA, being the main ones. but even smaller nations from Ireland to Iceland contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 ..........aaaarrrrggggghhhhhh! ...........moral high ground Australia........saved lives by stopping the boats...! ...........the fact that so many are dieing where they are is of no consequence..? ...........or living without basic needs.......living in fear......persecuted..... ...........but we've saved a few by denying them hope........no other alternative.....just the one chance they have to escape...! ...........a perfect world.........starts with just one jesture.... ...........so many of us left a country that didn't meet our needs.... ............did we stay and try to make a difference....? .............no.......we left for somewhere easier...... .............did we bring our hate ,problems,incompatibility with us....? .............and then think we have the right to deny others the same..... ..............theresaword for that........escapes me( lucky me,some don't have that chance)......atm...! A big reason why a lot of us left that country that didn't meet our needs was immigration had led to a situation where our youngster would have ended up in a school where the main language would have been Gudjerati (if I spelled it right) and there wasn't an option for going anywhere else. The social fabric of where we lived and a lot of the country was changing in a way we didn't like and it's gotten worse since we left. I don't want Aus to go down the same road. We tried to make a difference when we were there by our vote but the EU, the common market and the open border policy of the EU have created more and more problems for the UK as far as I'm concerned. It was time to make a break. We've never had any hate or incompatibility issues, not religious, don't regard the population in Aus as infidels that don't follow our beliefs, don't think we are going to go to heaven with virgins waiting for us if we turn into martyrs. We were only coming from the UK though and it's not that bad... yet. Sure there are pockets in the UK where you wouldn't notice any problems, inner cities not being one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So thats a yes then. You'd let them die slowly in front of the world's media. To 'send a message'. I'm gobsmacked. This thread is very chilling reading. To my way of thinking you are choosing the easy option. Encouraging thousands to set out on perilous journeys in boats that would sink without trace but because you do not see those people on the TV they do not count and you can retain your moral superiority. For every individual that could be plucked from the sea there will be many more dying unseen but in your mind that would be acceptable because at least they would have had hope and you didn't know they were even there. The potential scale of this issue is beyond the comprehension of some here. Sure, Australia could absorb a few tens of thousands of such refugees/economic migrants from poor countries but hundreds of thousands would have a destabilising impact. And for everyone that made it how many would die in the attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee13 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I'd love to think that's all there was to it but there are a lot of them economic migrants. The Vietnamese didn't have an axe to grind with the Western World when they came here, like a lot of the current refugees. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. I wouldn't say the Vietnamese are any more hard working than anyone else coming in. A lot of them have been exploited by big business and their own countrymen and used as cheap labour. A few of them featured on 4 corners a couple of weeks ago. If you look back at the Vietnam war and the aftermath.. displaced peoples from Vietnam... the war and destruction of a country by USA and its allies including Australians .. are you saying they just put on a happy face and jumped on a boat looking for the suburban Aussie dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I'd love to think that's all there was to it but there are a lot of them economic migrants. The Vietnamese didn't have an axe to grind with the Western World when they came here, like a lot of the current refugees. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. I wouldn't say the Vietnamese are any more hard working than anyone else coming in. A lot of them have been exploited by big business and their own countrymen and used as cheap labour. A few of them featured on 4 corners a couple of weeks ago. Why would you suggest that? Some could easily have been Communist fifth columnists. Certainly a lot would have been economic migrants as gold was prominent among some of the richer, enticing elements of the press and media to insist they were not refugees but criminals and/or economic opportunists. Indeed a number of Vietnamese were politically active against what they saw as left wing, which resulted in clashes with wharfies on at least one occasion. Whitlam the former ALP leader, did not want Balkan Viets coming in who would obviously in his thinking support Conservative side of politics. There was associations with corruption with corrupt practices and like all people some were very hard working while others took different paths. The abuse of cheap labour is hardly confined to the Vietnamese community but plays a part as it does with many other communities. The program the other week showed Aussie farmers abusing back packers by means of low pay and sexual attempted exploitation. Hardly new that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 If you look back at the Vietnam war and the aftermath.. displaced peoples from Vietnam... the war and destruction of a country by USA and its allies including Australians .. are you saying they just put on a happy face and jumped on a boat looking for the suburban Aussie dream? The fear was genuine. It has long been American propaganda to create angst in the general population for obvious reasons with the fear of massacre and displacement if the Commi's ever got power. As it turned out there was little of that outside of re education camps in the Vietnam context. Cambodia of course the horror was worse than could ever have been imagined. It was the Vietnamese armed forces that finally freed the country eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 A big reason why a lot of us left that country that didn't meet our needs was immigration had led to a situation where our youngster would have ended up in a school where the main language would have been Gudjerati (if I spelled it right) and there wasn't an option for going anywhere else. The social fabric of where we lived and a lot of the country was changing in a way we didn't like and it's gotten worse since we left. I don't want Aus to go down the same road. We tried to make a difference when we were there by our vote but the EU, the common market and the open border policy of the EU have created more and more problems for the UK as far as I'm concerned. It was time to make a break. We've never had any hate or incompatibility issues, not religious, don't regard the population in Aus as infidels that don't follow our beliefs, don't think we are going to go to heaven with virgins waiting for us if we turn into martyrs. We were only coming from the UK though and it's not that bad... yet. Sure there are pockets in the UK where you wouldn't notice any problems, inner cities not being one of them. ........so you fulfilled your.....Maslow's hierarchy of needs....! ........do you agree that this should be the right of every human being....? ........and that those of us who have fulfilled ours.. ........owe it to those who havnt........some help..... .......Or do we shout.........I'm the king of the castle.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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