Are you 'comfortable' with Australia's handling of Tamil asylum seekers at sea?

[MARYROSE02]

This may or may be true parley. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if a few were playing some tricks.

 

But that doesn't excuse the govt of all responsibility for actively creating mental illness in detainees banged up in offshore detention, nor of suicides committed under their watch, either in detention or in the community.

 

The Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Psychiatrists, The Royal College of Physicians, Amnesty International are all fiercely against the process of mandatory detention for this reason.

 

I know whose advice I'd take cues from, and it ain't Tony Abbott or Scott Morrison

 

How do you know that people are not mentally ill before they even come to Australia? And compared to the numbers of people drowned under the previous Government's watch, the number of suicides are miniscule.

Edited July 11, 2014 by MARYROSE02

[MARYROSE02]

A sound argument to dispose of so called democracy, introduce a paternalistic system akin to say Singapore. That will allow the government to just get on with it without cause of concern in having actual policy and leave the plebs in the dark.

 

Come to think of it.......

 

So, you would like to see a return to unseaworthy boats every day, with hundreds more people drowning, whilst the smugglers go back to making their huge profits?

 

Australia could double, triple, quadruple even the numbers of refugees that they take in and it would make no difference to the numbers trying to get in illegally. In fact, it might just encourage more to try to come.

[Harpodom]

How do you know that people are not mentally ill before they even come to Australia? And compared to the numbers of people drowned under the previous Government's watch, the number of suicides are miniscule.

 

So, every time an asylum seeker kills himself because of the effects of this govt's policies, you say 'oh, that's still less than than the drownings, so all good'?

 

Nah. I don't buy that $hite.

 

If you're willing to enact the govt's policies by working in an offshore detention centre (I hear they're recruiting at the moment: no working with children checks required, no nothing actually) and sleep with a sound conscience, having denied children their liberty, then I might believe your faux concern.

 

Until then, your argument is worthless and meaningless.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot solve a problem by denying the human rights of the most vulnerable people on this planet. By doing so you degrade yourself and them.

[mickyb]

I'm not easy with the underhand nature of the operation at the moment . Whether by boat or any other means asylum seekers should be assessed individually and transparently . But if I read one more of flags posts , I may well change my mind .

[flag of convenience]

How do you know that people are not mentally ill before they even come to Australia? And compared to the numbers of people drowned under the previous Government's watch, the number of suicides are miniscule.

 

Well because you a pretty much guaranteed to develop some form of mental illness being warehoused in those camps. Sadly many of the kids will likely be scared for life as well. Of course if Abbott had Morrison hadn't jumped on the moral wagon with regards the Malaysia Solution, far more deaths at sea may have been prevented. Not that for one moment do I consider that more than an excuse to wave around to enable a sort of moral reaction in place of the "We don't want reffo's here", brigade.

 

With the correct policy which doesn't include offshore non processing the numbers placing themselves in danger could be limited.

[flag of convenience]

I'm not easy with the underhand nature of the operation at the moment . Whether by boat or any other means asylum seekers should be assessed individually and transparently . But if I read one more of flags posts , I may well change my mind .

 

Up to you pal. Plenty more coming.

[Parley]

Flag you do have an annoying habit of writing 8 posts consecutively.

Very tiresome to read and not how a conversation should take place.

[MARYROSE02]

Two wrongs don't make a right but it is illogical to say that one or two people committing suicide is preferable to hundreds drowning. Ths boats have stopped. The people smugglers have list their business. The drownings have stopped. Of course, people who arrive illegally without paperwork will be held in detention. No country in the world would just admit such people and then release them.into the.community.

[Harpodom]

Two wrongs don't make a right but it is illogical to say that one or two people committing suicide is preferable to hundreds drowning. Ths boats have stopped. The people smugglers have list their business. The drownings have stopped. Of course, people who arrive illegally without paperwork will be held in detention. No country in the world would just admit such people and then release them.into the.community.

 

I agree!

 

By the way the boats haven't stopped. The 'customs border force' or whatever its called is just intercepting them before they reach Australian waters. Arguably they are committing acts of piracy by boarding boats in international waters. Arguably the real people smugglers are the ones towing boats back to Indonesia or most recently refouling to Sri Lanka with zero regard for the consequences.

 

As for the drownings having stopped, neither you or I know what is happening 'on water' as all 'on water' matters are matters of 'national security', apparently, and therefore classified information.

 

Look mate, I agree that the drownings had to stop, but if that has been achieved, I don't agree with the manner in which this happened, or with the bull$hit being fed to us by this govt. Secrecy has no place in a democracy, outside of matters of genuine national security.

 

Human rights should be upheld at all times, no exceptions, no excuses.

[MARYROSE02]

Well because you a pretty much guaranteed to develop some form of mental illness being warehoused in those camps. Sadly many of the kids will likely be scared for life as well. Of course if Abbott had Morrison hadn't jumped on the moral wagon with regards the Malaysia Solution, far more deaths at sea may have been prevented. Not that for one moment do I consider that more than an excuse to wave around to enable a sort of moral reaction in place of the "We don't want reffo's here", brigade.

 

With the correct policy which doesn't include offshore non processing the numbers placing themselves in danger could be limited.

 

What exactly is it about Australian detention centres that allegedly causes so many people to self-harm, or induces so much mental illness? What about refugees held in official detention centres? Surely they are subject to the same conditions, possibly far worse, considering how long many of them are there. Are they all self-harming, or developing mental illness? If they are, then Australia will be overwhelmed just from official refugees.

[MARYROSE02]

I agree!

 

By the way the boats haven't stopped. The 'customs border force' or whatever its called is just intercepting them before they reach Australian waters. Arguably they are committing acts of piracy by boarding boats in international waters. Arguably the real people smugglers are the ones towing boats back to Indonesia or most recently refouling to Sri Lanka with zero regard for the consequences.

 

As for the drownings having stopped, neither you or I know what is happening 'on water' as all 'on water' matters are matters of 'national security', apparently, and therefore classified information.

 

Look mate, I agree that the drownings had to stop, but if that has been achieved, I don't agree with the manner in which this happened, or with the bull$hit being fed to us by this govt. Secrecy has no place in a democracy, outside of matters of genuine national security.

 

Human rights should be upheld at all times, no exceptions, no excuses.

 

Secrecy has ALWAYS had a place in democracies, especially in areas of national security and defence. Name me a democracy that does not possess a 'secret service' of some kind. Name me a democracy that does not enforce 'thirty-year' (or more) rules, regarding publication of government documents. Do you have any more idea of what MI5 and MI6, or the CIA do, compared to ASIO? Who knows what the Royal Navy's nuclear submarines are up to? Australia has no obligation to reveal what the RAN is up to on its operations either.

 

Incidentally, would you care to name those democracies that have a greater regard for human rights than Australia, particularly in our area of the World? That might explain just why Australia continues to be such an attractive destination.

[Xenon4017]

Human rights should be upheld at all times, no exceptions, no excuses.

 

All right, let's give you a go. (FoC didn't really catch on.)

 

Harpodom, in your opinion, does an asylum seeker have the right to choose where they are eventually settled?

[Harpodom]

Secrecy has ALWAYS had a place in democracies, especially in areas of national security and defence. Name me a democracy that does not possess a 'secret service' of some kind. Name me a democracy that does not enforce 'thirty-year' (or more) rules, regarding publication of government documents. Do you have any more idea of what MI5 and MI6, or the CIA do, compared to ASIO? Who knows what the Royal Navy's nuclear submarines are up to? Australia has no obligation to reveal what the RAN is up to on its operations either.

 

Incidentally, would you care to name those democracies that have a greater regard for human rights than Australia, particularly in our area of the World? That might explain just why Australia continues to be such an attractive destination.

 

Bollocks. We're talking people arriving on boats here, not an Al Qaeda conspiracy. National security my arse.

 

All right, let's give you a go. (FoC didn't really catch on.)

 

Harpodom, in your opinion, does an asylum seeker have the right to choose where they are eventually settled?

 

I don't know why you're barking up this tree but it doesn't register as important to me, sorry.

[Xenon4017]

I don't know why you're barking up this tree but it doesn't register as important to me, sorry.

 

So you refuse to reveal your opinion as well as FoC.

 

It's really a central question. Genuine refugees aren't too bothered where they go; they're more concerned where they've been (persecuted). Economic migrants are very interested in where they end up. By breaking the link between the place of asylum lodgement and eventual settlement, it becomes far less attractive for economic migrants to enter into the system, whilst not deterring those truly in peril. What this government has tried to do is break the link between arriving here and staying here. For those who were already underway, it's proved to be quite a shock. The "rules", as sold to them by vested interests, have changed.

 

And all this simply doesn't register to you as important. Trying to identify why so many more asylum seeker end up here than, say, in Argentina. Just like FoC, better to try to ignore the important questions than to have your views tested. You often wonder how Tony Abbott got to be leader of the country. Just take a look at the quality of his opposition.

[Harpodom]

All I hear from your rather circumlocutory line of 'questioning' is that you and many others get some sort of perverse pleasure out of seeing refugees denied the right to settle in Australia.

 

As St Scott of Southerland Shire puts it, 'no asylum seeker has a right to live in a first world country'

 

I'm right, aren't I?

 

So you refuse to reveal your opinion as well as FoC.

 

It's really a central question. Genuine refugees aren't too bothered where they go; they're more concerned where they've been (persecuted). Economic migrants are very interested in where they end up. By breaking the link between the place of asylum lodgement and eventual settlement, it becomes far less attractive for economic migrants to enter into the system, whilst not deterring those truly in peril. What this government has tried to do is break the link between arriving here and staying here. For those who were already underway, it's proved to be quite a shock. The "rules", as sold to them by vested interests, have changed.

 

And all this simply doesn't register to you as important. Trying to identify why so many more asylum seeker end up here than, say, in Argentina. Just like FoC, better to try to ignore the important questions than to have your views tested. You often wonder how Tony Abbott got to be leader of the country. Just take a look at the quality of his opposition.

[Xenon4017]

All I hear from your rather circumlocutory line of 'questioning' is that you and many others get some sort of perverse pleasure out of seeing refugees denied the right to settle in Australia.

 

As St Scott of Southerland Shire puts it, 'no asylum seeker has a right to live in a first world country'

 

I'm right, aren't I?

 

Not quite. I get no pleasure from seeing a system that was set up to provide refuge to those in peril being exploited by those who aren't in peril but just want to live somewhere else without going through the legitimate immigration schemes. Two reasons for this. First, because it's "queue-jumping", but most importantly, because the fraudsters might be displacing a genuine asylum seeker from the system. They could in fact be causing the death of such people. The eventual risk is that the current system comes into such disrepute that the major pardners decide to no longer support it. That would be a tradgedy.

 

My own solution would be to transfer any asylum seeker who arrives in Australia to a third country that already has a large refugee population, and to exchange them 2 for 1. That means for every person we deposit, we would take in 2 and give them permanent residency. I might even go up to 5 for 1 to get the ball rolling. The new intake would be selected at random. It would take motivation away from the fraudsters whilst giving hope to those already in camps, and the net result would be that more refugees would get permanent settlement in a safe country.

 

That's what you want, isn't it? More refugees with permanent homes?

[MARYROSE02]

In reply to "bollocks" & "national security.my arse" whose boats did we see day,after day, rescuing people from the seas around Australia? The RAN &/or Customs. What is one if their primary tasks? Er,.National Security, and patrolling the nations waterways, as it is for any maritime nation. Is the RAN supposed to tell us what they are doing every minute of every day? How do YOU know that.any boat is not carrying terrorists, drugs,.guns? And what would happen to those people smuggler boats without RAN or Customs patrols?.How.many would wreck off the coast of Oz or elsewhere? & imagine the rage of that happened? Where is the Navy? Why aren't they doing their job?

 

And being opposed to people smugglers does not,equate to being anti refugee. But it does mean being anti illegal immigrant and anti anyone being allowed to come.here just because they say they are refugees. How do you know the Tamils are.not actually Tamil Tigers? Because they say they aren't? Why have they destroyed their ID papers?

[Harpodom]

Not quite. I get no pleasure from seeing a system that was set up to provide refuge to those in peril being exploited by those who aren't in peril but just want to live somewhere else without going through the legitimate immigration schemes. Two reasons for this. First, because it's "queue-jumping", but most importantly, because the fraudsters might be displacing a genuine asylum seeker from the system. They could in fact be causing the death of such people. The eventual risk is that the current system comes into such disrepute that the major pardners decide to no longer support it. That would be a tradgedy.

 

My own solution would be to transfer any asylum seeker who arrives in Australia to a third country that already has a large refugee population, and to exchange them 2 for 1. That means for every person we deposit, we would take in 2 and give them permanent residency. I might even go up to 5 for 1 to get the ball rolling. The new intake would be selected at random. It would take motivation away from the fraudsters whilst giving hope to those already in camps, and the net result would be that more refugees would get permanent settlement in a safe country.

 

That's what you want, isn't it? More refugees with permanent homes?

 

There is a kind of twisted logic to your 2 for 1 idea BUT it has a fundamental flaw. It denies the most basic human right: the right to seek asylum.

 

It also presumes guilt in those seeking asylum in this country and seeks to make them suffer.

 

Actually its a really crap idea on further reflection.

[Harpodom]

blah blah blah...I scan read your post, all I read was 'illegal immigrant', 'destroyed their ID papers', 'terrorists', 'people smuggler'....

 

You wanna cut down on yer Murdoch mate, get some exercise!

 

No mate. We're not at war. We are not fighting a counter insurgency here. No need for state secrets.

 

In reply to "bollocks" & "national security.my arse" whose boats did we see day,after day, rescuing people from the seas around Australia? The RAN &/or Customs. What is one if their primary tasks? Er,.National Security, and patrolling the nations waterways, as it is for any maritime nation. Is the RAN supposed to tell us what they are doing every minute of every day? How do YOU know that.any boat is not carrying terrorists, drugs,.guns? And what would happen to those people smuggler boats without RAN or Customs patrols?.How.many would wreck off the coast of Oz or elsewhere? & imagine the rage of that happened? Where is the Navy? Why aren't they doing their job?

 

And being opposed to people smugglers does not,equate to being anti refugee. But it does mean being anti illegal immigrant and anti anyone being allowed to come.here just because they say they are refugees. How do you know the Tamils are.not actually Tamil Tigers? Because they say they aren't? Why have they destroyed their ID papers?

[Parley]

All Asylum Seekers should be delivered directly to regional camps for processing.

We shouldn't be assessing people ourselves.

They should go directly to the camp.

 

We take approved refugees from the camps only as per a queue.

 

That is how it should work.

[Keith and Linda]

blah blah blah...I scan read your post, all I read was 'illegal immigrant', 'destroyed their ID papers', 'terrorists', 'people smuggler'....

 

You wanna cut down on yer Murdoch mate, get some exercise!

 

No mate. We're not at war. We are not fighting a counter insurgency here. No need for state secrets.

 

Pretty comprehensive scan there:wacko:

[Harpodom]

Pretty comprehensive scan there:wacko:

 

I thought you were bored?

[Rallyman]

So harpo,FOC what's your answer to this sorry state of affairs let anybody into Australia who wants say "I am a refuge " , I am sure there are thousands of people who who dearly love to come here through legitimate means but because they don't get enough points to get a visa this has stopped them.Do they turn round and say I am a refuge let me in, as it has been proved , once many of them have been given the right to a new passport they travel back to their original country they have fled from under persecution and fear of their life to take a holiday , hardly the action of someone who is terrified for their life would you return or are these places now safe to return to ?

 

what they are doing is taking the places of genuine refuges as you said 1 million over 3 years is too many ,

I think and the majority of people would more than welcome genuine refuges to be able to start a new life in a safe and prosperous country and they deserve the chance to do this ,

these people are economic migrants trying to get in through the back door something that you can't see or fail to admit

 

The government are doing what they said they would do if elected stopping the boats,

if people are not happy with the way they are doing things they will be voted out next time round.

[flag of convenience]

So harpo,FOC what's your answer to this sorry state of affairs let anybody into Australia who wants say "I am a refuge " , I am sure there are thousands of people who who dearly love to come here through legitimate means but because they don't get enough points to get a visa this has stopped them.Do they turn round and say I am a refuge let me in, as it has been proved , once many of them have been given the right to a new passport they travel back to their original country they have fled from under persecution and fear of their life to take a holiday , hardly the action of someone who is terrified for their life would you return or are these places now safe to return to ?

 

what they are doing is taking the places of genuine refuges as you said 1 million over 3 years is too many ,

I think and the majority of people would more than welcome genuine refuges to be able to start a new life in a safe and prosperous country and they deserve the chance to do this ,

these people are economic migrants trying to get in through the back door something that you can't see or fail to admit

 

The government are doing what they said they would do if elected stopping the boats,

if people are not happy with the way they are doing things they will be voted out next time round.

 

Sorry but this has been answered so many times. It is for a government to respond to situations in a statesman like manner. It can hardly be claimed this government is running on a platform of consensus politics can it? A shame they use the asylum issue as probably their only populist measure towards getting the public on board. If a vote was held on many contentious issues the populist vote would be clearly counter government policy but only this one is aired with ferocity by demonising and using for political gain. A government void in moral repute.

[flag of convenience]

Secrecy has ALWAYS had a place in democracies, especially in areas of national security and defence. Name me a democracy that does not possess a 'secret service' of some kind. Name me a democracy that does not enforce 'thirty-year' (or more) rules, regarding publication of government documents. Do you have any more idea of what MI5 and MI6, or the CIA do, compared to ASIO? Who knows what the Royal Navy's nuclear submarines are up to? Australia has no obligation to reveal what the RAN is up to on its operations either.

 

Incidentally, would you care to name those democracies that have a greater regard for human rights than Australia, particularly in our area of the World? That might explain just why Australia continues to be such an attractive destination.

 

I would say democracies with a clearly written constitution for starters. I can name quite a few. Australia is a less attractive destination than Europe. As for secrecy I can name the ALP as having an open policy on boat arrivals much to their credit, as it did little good in the polling.