Guest Guest16631 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 OK. If you want this to go on and on. .......you are correct: I meant 'feeling' differently OK? ........trash tabloid or quality article..........? ..........I'm sure it can,-and I will continue to disagree with sweeping generalisations.... ........the content is in question IMO..... .........it does indeed!!!...... And NO I am not ridiculing your style of posting. I find it difficult to understand sometimes, so set it out in the same way to answer it. Over to you. .......lol........over it....! ......but thank you for the debate......tink x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 It depends on the definition of oppression doesn't it? I did not trivialise that which I do not believe exists. This to me is like the self diagnosis of depression. It is now so popular to claim depression for every incident/situation where one is unhappy. Either there is a sudden epidemic of depression-or more people are laying claim to it. Oppression is a relative term. I trivialised nothing. Why doesn't that surprise me... Thanks for this opportunity! Just to be clear: others may differ; have different philosophies, different politics. My philosophical/political outlook is on the Left. I mean the true Left, not the Labour/Labor Party of today. For me the working class full stop is the absolute backbone of any country. Bin the Board-the factory would continue. Bin the workers-the factory would fail. There will be those who can come up with whatever rationale they like to explain that away, but that is a fundamental fact. Where I disagree is that the 'White' working class is an oppressed minority. If we are talking oppression......then why do we refer to 'White' working class? Could it possibly be because of the definition of 'oppression' is a tad skewed? If we talk about the oppression of the working class-ALL. Then I would agree about that oppression. It is coming from the Thatcherthink structure who need the working class to do as they are told. Just a quick point. Debenhams is doing badly. John Lewis is doing well. Is this because of the workers or the management? Are john lewis workers better than debenhams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peccavi Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Just a quick point. Debenhams is doing badly. John Lewis is doing well. Is this because of the workers or the management? Are john lewis workers better than debenhams? No, but their Management is, because they recognize the value of the workers! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 No, but their Management is, because they recognize the value of the workers! :wink: Thats a fair point btw,Lewis's workers are all part of the share scheme,as opposed to just Managers at Debenhams,Sports Direct used to lose 1 employee in 3(per year i think)before they too brought their employee's into the share scheme,now its 1 in 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peccavi Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Thats a fair point btw,Lewis's workers are all part of the share scheme,as opposed to just Managers at Debenhams,Sports Direct used to lose 1 employee in 3(per year i think)before they too brought their employee's into the share scheme,now its 1 in 5 Ahhh! I didn't know that. I remembered both stores from the dim and distant only. It was tongue in cheek of course, but I did mean it. Value your workers and they will value you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Great article (link), My sister told me recently that her son had been chosen as a mentor as part of a scheme that had recognised that white working class children are being overlooked. Not overlooked, just born into multi generational poverty and apathy. Working class Afro Caribbean kids, Indian kids, Chinese kids, South Asian kids, all do better at school than white poorer kids. Maybe we need to stop blaming 'the other' for all our ills and face up to the fact that we aren't doing our kids any favours by moaning on forums when we should be organising better ways to improve things for them. White working class kids are being failed by their parents and those that blame other kids who get on with gaining the best education that they can - and no one else. Schools are not a place to iron out behavioural problems, teach kids manners, feed them 3 square meals per day as is the case in many communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Not overlooked, just born into multi generational poverty and apathy. Working class Afro Caribbean kids, Indian kids, Chinese kids, South Asian kids, all do better at school than white poorer kids. Maybe we need to stop blaming 'the other' for all our ills and face up to the fact that we aren't doing our kids any favours by moaning on forums when we should be organising better ways to improve things for them. White working class kids are being failed by their parents and those that blame other kids who get on with gaining the best education that they can - and no one else. Schools are not a place to iron out behavioural problems, teach kids manners, feed them 3 square meals per day as is the case in many communities. I found that offensive, full of sweeping generalisations, way off the mark and racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I found that offensive, full of sweeping generalisations, way off the mark and racist. You'll get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Not overlooked, just born into multi generational poverty and apathy. Working class Afro Caribbean kids, Indian kids, Chinese kids, South Asian kids, all do better at school than white poorer kids. Maybe we need to stop blaming 'the other' for all our ills and face up to the fact that we aren't doing our kids any favours by moaning on forums when we should be organising better ways to improve things for them. White working class kids are being failed by their parents and those that blame other kids who get on with gaining the best education that they can - and no one else. Schools are not a place to iron out behavioural problems, teach kids manners, feed them 3 square meals per day as is the case in many communities. Wow, wonders will never cease, agree 100%, never thought I'd see the day . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 You'll get over it i did, you poor sods have to live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I found that offensive, full of sweeping generalisations, way off the mark and racist. I think its more or less fact that poorer ethnic minority kids do better than poorer white kids tho to be fair,especially Chinese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think its more or less fact that poorer ethnic minority kids do better than poorer white kids tho to be fair,especially Chinese agreed so I hope they get the same support that ethnic kids have received, remember, kids are innocent, I agree rthat parents should play a large part in how well they get on at school but you can't choose your parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 agreed so I hope they get the same support that ethnic kids have received, remember, kids are innocent, I agree rthat parents should play a large part in how well they get on at school but you can't choose your parents. Of course kids are innocent,agreed,i honestly dont know why poorer white kids seem to perform worse than minority poor kids,i haven't gone into it in detail,seems strange to me tbh,do you think ethnic minority kids get more help from the education system,or their parents,or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 To be specific, it's boys from poorer white backgrounds who underachieved - girls have steadily improved in the last 30 years and are now ahead of boys in most if not all ethnic groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 To be specific, it's boys from poorer white backgrounds who underachieved - girls have steadily improved in the last 30 years and are now ahead of boys in most if not all ethnic groups. I seen that,think it was in the Telegraph on line,girls results were a lot better for some reason,then there was something about black kids from more affluent backgrounds doing worse,i wouldn't like to be the one to make sense of it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommyaussie Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 ........my argument is that oppression.......racism...any practice that excludes..............is wrong..... ..........degrees of are immaterial...... ..........creed colour gender..............doesn't matter...... ..........in the eyes of the victim......... ..........their's is the most severe........! Agree. I also find it strange that the previously oppressed feel it is now their responsibility to oppress those who in the largest majority have ruled out the oppression. It seems it is their intent to make this kinder, more caring and self aware generation pay for the sins of their ignorant white forefathers. Ironic that innit..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybyknight Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 agreed so I hope they get the same support that ethnic kids have received, remember, kids are innocent, I agree rthat parents should play a large part in how well they get on at school but you can't choose your parents. if white kids get state help it would prove the positive discrimination has ended. from what i hear that's not the case. if you cannot prove you are a 'minority' you have little chance of state help in the uk. every child should have an equal crack at life, sadly try as we might some are more equal than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 A level playing field that's all. No more no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 if white kids get state help it would prove the positive discrimination has ended. from what i hear that's not the case. if you cannot prove you are a 'minority' you have little chance of state help in the uk. every child should have an equal crack at life, sadly try as we might some are more equal than others. To suggest that white kids are somehow victims of discrimination in the UK, whilst their non white peers have endless resources thrown at them, is ridiculous. Many ethnic groups live in greater poverty than their UK counterparts, come from under educated, workless families, yet they do better than kids with parents from the UK. A big problem is this sense of entitlement and self pity, as can be seen in much of this thread. Rather than look at the real reasons (poverty, poor parenting etc) the same people with the same agendas seek to blame the success of some for the failure of others - as if success is a cup with a finite capacity, and the success of 'x' means that there is none left for 'y'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Twisting things to suit your agenda again I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 A level playing field that's all. No more no less. Whilst people seek to make excuses and blame others for failure, there will be no improvement. Do you have any evidence to show that there isn't a level playing field Simmo? I'd love to see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Twisting things to suit your agenda again I see Of course Simmo, of course.:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Whilst people seek to make excuses and blame others for failure, there will be no improvement. Do you have any evidence to show that there isn't a level playing field Simmo? I'd love to see it... Poor white people in Western countries are often from a long line of poor white people, even though we have been living in a land where there is a wonderful opportunity to advance. Immigrants are poor often because they live in countries where there is little opportunity to advance. Put them in a situation where they can advance themselves, and lo and hehold. they do. It's not rocket science. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The difference here is that some horses are damned thirsty. The question is not one of immigration and lost opportunity. The question is one of whether the poor white folk are just duds, (the immigrant duds having stayed in their own country) or do they have potential, and if so, how do we inspire them to tap that potential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulv Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Poor white people in Western countries are often from a long line of poor white people, even though we have been living in a land where there is a wonderful opportunity to advance. Immigrants are poor often because they live in countries where there is little opportunity to advance. Put them in a situation where they can advance themselves, and lo and hehold. they do. It's not rocket science. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The difference here is that some horses are damned thirsty. The question is not one of immigration and lost opportunity. The question is one of whether the poor white folk are just duds, (the immigrant duds having stayed in their own country) or do they have potential, and if so, how do we inspire them to tap that potential? Jez, please stop twisting things to suit my agenda, it's just not fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Whilst people seek to make excuses and blame others for failure, there will be no improvement. Do you have any evidence to show that there isn't a level playing field Simmo? I'd love to see it... No body on this thread has blamed anyone's failure on anyone's success or visa versa, they are your words. This from one of your own .:wink: “That spoke to me very, very powerfully. So it seems to me that we did want controls ... I think the answer is partly on the supply side,” he says. “We’ve got to make sure that we’re training our young people for jobs [in which they will] succeed [but] the real fear is that we got the numbers wrong last time, the statistics were very poorly produced, and policy flowed from that.” Is he in favour of the UK looking again at the free movement of labour within Europe? “I would say that is above my pay grade. “What we can do in the education sphere is to [show] that there is a growing issue of white British boys not getting the education they want.” Presumably he seems them as the cohort most failed by a migrant influx? “None of this is to say there isn’t more work to do with black Afro-Caribbean boys and in urban areas. But we do know ... there is a strand of low-attaining, not necessarily poor, boys in suburban coastal districts – you can draw a line from Lincolnshire through Norfolk, Suffolk down to the Kent coastal towns – who are not being challenged or served effectively enough by the education system. “It doesn’t matter that these are white boys. It’s not about the colour of their skin. It is a grouping that we know we have an issue with.” While London schools have been transformed “and that has particularly impacted on other race communities, we have a problem in other parts of the country that particularly affects white British boys“. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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