.......do we need to worry about our children's education......?

[Harpodom]

Let me give you example of a lazy white trash family so ignorant there daughter still cant read and write in Year 3 despite attending the local state school.

 

The 'lazy white trash' are almost certainly the underclass which exists in both the UK and Aus: chronically unemployable parents, almost certainly with a degree of learning disability, and as a result of inadequate parenting skills, their children are likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and have significant learning disabilities themselves

[Guest]

I accept my views are somewhat different to most, I have the (dis?)advantage of studying child psychology to masters level and lecturing to degree level, as well as experience as a social worker and a teacher and I'm just a little to the far left I am on the whole opposed to what is called education in mainstream schools (state or private). To measure a persons success in life by their academic results is ludicrous, good exam results proves one thing and one thing only - the person is good at passing exams, it says nothing about their ability to do a job, to be proactive, to be creative thinkers or about their emotional intelligence. I truly believe at the extreme end the children of these 'tiger mums' are actually severely disadvantaged in most of these other skills. When I was at Uni and aiming to by a clinical psychologist I was told I would need a 2:1 NOT a first because a first would raise suspicion that I wasn't socially normal, sadly I focussed too much on being socially normal and got a 2:2

 

My son goes to what many would consider an alternative school and I am blown away with the range of skills he is developing not just academic. If I can have a little boast now He goes to school holiday classes at the art centre and I got a call from the director the other day to ask if my son would be willing and able to open the 40th anniversary exhibition, he had been recommended by his animation tutor as exactly the sort of 'engaged and enthusiastic' child they were looking for. He will be speaking in front of 500-600 people! I want my son to be 'engaged and enthusiastic' not 'fearful and loathing' about education.

 

I don't measure success in life by status or money but by happiness - my OH and I are both what would be considered 'successes' of the education system having come from'poor white' backgrounds but happiness has eluded us for a long time. We have both moved on from our chosen careers and I think have now both found our vocation. We certainly will not be pushing education down our sons throat, we will entirely support him in whatever he wants to do - whether that's university, an apprenticeship, art school or a job in McDonalds.

 

It's okay I know most people don't agree with me even my OH who agrees in principle has had his moments of worry that sending our son to a 'hippy school' (his words) is the best idea but each year at graduation the vast majority of leavers go on to gifted and talented programmes which says to me it works! And yes it is private but only $1k a term so far from elitist.

 

I was very heartened to see some of the elitist schools in Perth banning homework in holidays and weekends and mandating play - wonder what the tiger mums will make of that?

 

In the UK many many more students get 3 A's at A level than Oxford/Cambridge could ever take and I had the difficult job of explaining to parents that it is very unlikely their little darling is unlikely to get a place because they are just too...well....boring! The admissions tutors are very clear what they are looking for and it isn't highly tutored students.

 

Off my soap box now!

Edited March 28, 2013 by Lady Rainicorn

[Ellie 2]

The 'lazy white trash' are almost certainly the underclass which exists in both the UK and Aus: chronically unemployable parents, almost certainly with a degree of learning disability, and as a result of inadequate parenting skills, their children are likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and have significant learning disabilities themselves

 

This is not necessarily true. I have known many children from the background you describe who are above average intelligence. Unfortunately because of their background they do not realise their potential. ie could go to uni but because of indifference and lack of support from parents they leave school at 16.

[Harpodom]

This is not necessarily true. I have known many children from the background you describe who are above average intelligence. Unfortunately because of their background they do not realise their potential. ie could go to uni but because of indifference and lack of support from parents they leave school at 16.

 

I'm not saying that all children raised in this way are going to have ADHD and learning disabilities, more that if you looked at those children who the other poster described as 'lazy white trash', for the majority there is usually a very understandable reason why.

[Guest Guest 47403]

Yes exactly what I was saying, they are prepared to put in the hard yards. I wonder if you will get criticised for your sweeping generalisation ?

 

Read starlight7's reply again where has he/she made a sweeping generalisation?

 

Still waiting :wink:

[davey1985]

The 'lazy white trash' are almost certainly the underclass which exists in both the UK and Aus: chronically unemployable parents, almost certainly with a degree of learning disability, and as a result of inadequate parenting skills, their children are likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and have significant learning disabilities themselves

 

Jesus harpo, spot on! This is exactly the case with my girlfriends younger brother, but no one seems to want to accept it :-D he's apparently got ADHD but actually his mother just hasn't put any effort in with regards to parenting or discipline. I firmly believe if it had been done properly from day 1 there would be no problem. Thankfully the gf wasn't brought up by her :-D

[Sustain]

I'm not saying that all children raised in this way are going to have ADHD and learning disabilities, more that if you looked at those children who the other poster described as 'lazy white trash', for the majority there is usually a very understandable reason why.

 

Just to clarify my purpose of posting was to remind posters of 2 extremes. Not advocating to go either polar. But a balance, and school should be fund and knowledge gathering encouraged. To go over or not commence are the evils parents should be aware of.

[Guest]

The 'lazy white trash' are almost certainly the underclass which exists in both the UK and Aus: chronically unemployable parents, almost certainly with a degree of learning disability, and as a result of inadequate parenting skills, their children are likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and have significant learning disabilities themselves

 

Hmm, I can't fully agree with this - I entirely agree that the 'lazy white trash' are the so-called 'underclass' but learning disability and ADHD are not as a result of poor parenting. I worked with 8-16 year olds whose parents were almost entirely of the type you describe, their behaviour was atrocious and they stood little to no chance of academic achievement but that was due to emotional damage not learning disability. In fact dyslexia is far more likely to be diagnosed in middle class children - leading to a wonderful Daily Mail headline 'Is dyslexia just a middle class way of hiding stupidity' - not sure whether to laugh or cry! The truth is the year 3 girl who couldn't read could well have been dyslexic, her parents didn't care enough to fight the system to get the help and assessment she needed.

 

There are known brain differences in ADHD (although cause and effect can be debated) and whilst behavioral therapy can help and parents can be taught specific ways of managing an ADHD child bad parenting is not the cause. I do think ADHD is over diagnosed these days and children who have emotional and behavioural disturbance due to bad parenting are diagnosed with ADHD, scary really since the drug treatment is to prescribe stimulants (needed for true ADHD)

 

Gee soap box twice in one thread and nothing to do with Australia at all really!

[Harpodom]

Hmm, I can't fully agree with this - I entirely agree that the 'lazy white trash' are the so-called 'underclass' but learning disability and ADHD are not as a result of poor parenting. I worked with 8-16 year olds whose parents were almost entirely of the type you describe, their behaviour was atrocious and they stood little to no chance of academic achievement but that was due to emotional damage not learning disability. In fact dyslexia is far more likely to be diagnosed in middle class children - leading to a wonderful Daily Mail headline 'Is dyslexia just a middle class way of hiding stupidity' - not sure whether to laugh or cry! The truth is the year 3 girl who couldn't read could well have been dyslexic, her parents didn't care enough to fight the system to get the help and assessment she needed.

 

There are known brain differences in ADHD (although cause and effect can be debated) and whilst behavioral therapy can help and parents can be taught specific ways of managing an ADHD child bad parenting is not the cause. I do think ADHD is over diagnosed these days and children who have emotional and behavioural disturbance due to bad parenting are diagnosed with ADHD, scary really since the drug treatment is to prescribe stimulants (needed for true ADHD)

 

Gee soap box twice in one thread and nothing to do with Australia at all really!

 

Re ADHD I agree that it isn't proven that 'bad parenting' is a cause, but surely you would agree there is a strong association between ADHD and chaotic family life, lack of a stable male role model, parental learning disability and 'general f78cked up-ness' on the part of the parents. Clearly there would be many potential causative factors there. But the harsh fact remains, ADHD and/or learning disability are more prevalent in the 'underclass' than in more stable families

[starlight7]

ADHD is an absolute can of worms, isn't it? I do think it exists but I also tend to think it is over-diagnosed but, hey, what would I know? Tempting to see some of the brats around and blame the parents when really these kids cannot help themselves, especially if they have never ben given any guidance/boundaries.

[Johndoe]

Let me give you example of a lazy white trash family so ignorant there daughter still cant read and write in Year 3 despite attending the local state school.

 

Nothing to do with the child and more to do with the parenting...................and yes,....................asians have their equivalent of "white trash", they just don't make it into the countries/schools that could better their kids.

[Johndoe]

Hmm, I can't fully agree with this - I entirely agree that the 'lazy white trash' are the so-called 'underclass' but learning disability and ADHD are not as a result of poor parenting.

 

I don't think that harpo is saying that, just that the Dx's often come from families who's parenting "leaves a lot to be desired" IYKWIM. As a foster carer, many of my charges came with a dx of ADHD/ADD but once in a stable environment, (for 6 months or more) I doubt that they would ever have been given that dx. They seemd to live in a constand world of "chaos" but given "calm" would present as totally different children.

 

I'm not saying that ADHD/ADD or even ASD is attributable to dysfunctional families, but I do believe that the dx is too freely applied to diffilcult children in order, either to attract funding for treatment/counselling, or simply to "letterbox" the child/problem.

[Johndoe]

Re ADHD I agree that it isn't proven that 'bad parenting' is a cause, but surely you would agree there is a strong association between ADHD and chaotic family life, lack of a stable male role model, parental learning disability and 'general f78cked up-ness' on the part of the parents. Clearly there would be many potential causative factors there. But the harsh fact remains, ADHD and/or learning disability are more prevalent in the 'underclass' than in more stable families

 

Agreed. There is a tendency to "apportion blame" but I don't think bad parenting is the cause (of DX) although the behaviour is, in most cases. In most cases, mis-diagnosis is the cause...............the child should just be labelled "disruptive"..........anti-social"..............borderline personality dis-order etc, or whatever, and the treatment taken from there. the trouble is, none of those attract funding in Oz so the child goes from bad to worse as no-one is on his/her case. They get labelled ADHD/ADD/ASD in order to attract funding. Stick with a "label" to sort them out, when in 9 cases out of ten they could be sorted with counselling and parenting classes...............and even those aren't funded unless you're referred to CYMHS (Child, youth and mental health services) which, IME, are a waste of space...............no continuity.............3 counsellors in the space of 12 months..............seems to be a "factory line" for churning out psychologists/social workers in the public sector. In all cases, we took our kids out and went private...................Tossers! IMHO (the public sector)............the system I mean, not the workers.

[Guest]

 

I'm not saying that ADHD/ADD or even ASD is attributable to dysfunctional families, but I do believe that the dx is too freely applied to diffilcult children in order, either to attract funding for treatment/counselling, or simply to "letterbox" the child/problem.

 

Absolutely 100% agree and it helps no-one.

 

I was a social worker in the '90s working with children whose behavioral difficulties were so extreme they were not able to be fostered, most had multiple foster home breakdowns behind them. The stories were all tragic and the cycle of abuse was evident. These children were the victims of poor parenting there was no doubt about that and they weren't labelled as ADHD /ADD or anything else. One girl was diagnosed schizophrenic in the end, and another boy autistic but that was in lots of wayd separate and almost certainly a correct diagnosis. The way I always thought of them was having a normal reaction to abnormal circumstances. Through theapeutic intervention (not drugs) we were able to make a real difference, I am in touch with a number of the children I worked with and their stories don't all have happy endings but enough do to prove to me the causes were environmental and changing the environment changes the outcome. Just last year a girl I worked with in 1990 got in touch to tell me her son had passed his GCSE's - she was proud of him, I was proud of her

 

At the time I was doing that work, I was asked for help by a family friend, she was having immense difficulties with her eldest son. He was behaving in lots of ways like the children I worked with. There were two other children in the family who were completely 'normal', nothing made sense - I'm not going to put too much detail since this is a public forum but in most respects this was a normal functioning middle class family. It just happened I was at a psychology conference that year and went to a lecture on ADHD - it was 'new' at the time and I strongly felt this was a possibility for this child. I wasn't qualified to diagnose nor would it have been professional but suggested he saw someone who was and indeed he subsequently was diagnosed.

 

Fast forward 20 years and cases where there are clear environment causes are being labelled ADHD and medicated so it's no wonder the general public have the view that it's more prevalent in bad families - although how many do you actually KNOW have actually been diagnosed by a clinical psychologist/psychiatrist? Or how many are simply diagnosed by parents looking for an excuse?

 

A quick google of ADHD causes shows pretty much a concensus that it is NOT caused by parenting.

 

And as I said before learning disabilities are if anything over diagnosed at the other end of the social scale.

[Guest]

Re ADHD I agree that it isn't proven that 'bad parenting' is a cause, but surely you would agree there is a strong association between ADHD and chaotic family life, lack of a stable male role model, parental learning disability and 'general f78cked up-ness' on the part of the parents. Clearly there would be many potential causative factors there. But the harsh fact remains, ADHD and/or learning disability are more prevalent in the 'underclass' than in more stable families

 

I don't and nor does the medical research show that, what I will agree is that it is diagnosed more but I think in a lot of cases these kids don't have ADHD at all. I do agree however that all those factors have a devastating effect on the likelihood of positive outcomes for the child - so really I am arguing purely from an academic viewpoint, I guess I am just aware that there will be many people on here who's children have these conditions and would conclude that you thought they were bad parents.

 

I do think the abusive, negle tful, chaotic parents are far more damaging than the 'tiger mums' but I think the 'tiger mum's are damaging too and are limiting their children true potential as human beings.

[Guest]

Agreed. There is a tendency to "apportion blame" but I don't think bad parenting is the cause (of DX) although the behaviour is, in most cases. In most cases, mis-diagnosis is the cause...............the child should just be labelled "disruptive"..........anti-social"..............borderline personality dis-order etc, or whatever, and the treatment taken from there. the trouble is, none of those attract funding in Oz so the child goes from bad to worse as no-one is on his/her case. They get labelled ADHD/ADD/ASD in order to attract funding. Stick with a "label" to sort them out, when in 9 cases out of ten they could be sorted with counselling and parenting classes...............and even those aren't funded unless you're referred to CYMHS (Child, youth and mental health services) which, IME, are a waste of space...............no continuity.............3 counsellors in the space of 12 months..............seems to be a "factory line" for churning out psychologists/social workers in the public sector. In all cases, we took our kids out and went private...................Tossers! IMHO (the public sector)............the system I mean, not the workers.

 

Totally agree again

[dmjg]

This is not completely the fault of the parents. Encouragement from home is always good but in the end it is the teacher's job to ensure that children make progress in the 3Rs. If there are learning difficulties the appropriate remediation should be available. The teacher is the person whose task it is to ensure children are literate. I accepted that responsibility over many, many years and can honestly say that not one child left my care unable to read and write.

 

This is not necessarily true. I have known many children from the background you describe who are above average intelligence. Unfortunately because of their background they do not realise their potential. ie could go to uni but because of indifference and lack of support from parents they leave school at 16.

 

Youre contradicting yourself.

[Ellie 2]

Youre contradicting yourself.

 

I don't think so. It is the teacher's job to ensure a child learns despite their parents but if the parent decides to remove the child from the education system there is nothing the teacher can do but hope that the child will eventually use the intelligence he has. I'm sure you know perfectly well that I did not contradict myself. The responses were to two completely different posts.

[Salma]

Has veered off a bit but interesting none the less.

 

I think a healthy balance needs to be struck between work and play......I am at home with my 2 yr old and he is learning everyday not in a structured way but when is too early for structured learning. I think most of us want our children to do well and if a good education helps with that so as a parent we should facilitate that along with ensuring they have a fun time too.

 

 

 

In regards to children being labelled I think it is easier to do that than look into the real issues.....

[Harpodom]

Absolutely 100% agree and it helps no-one.

 

I was a social worker in the '90s working with children whose behavioral difficulties were so extreme they were not able to be fostered, most had multiple foster home breakdowns behind them. The stories were all tragic and the cycle of abuse was evident. These children were the victims of poor parenting there was no doubt about that and they weren't labelled as ADHD /ADD or anything else. One girl was diagnosed schizophrenic in the end, and another boy autistic but that was in lots of wayd separate and almost certainly a correct diagnosis. The way I always thought of them was having a normal reaction to abnormal circumstances. Through theapeutic intervention (not drugs) we were able to make a real difference, I am in touch with a number of the children I worked with and their stories don't all have happy endings but enough do to prove to me the causes were environmental and changing the environment changes the outcome. Just last year a girl I worked with in 1990 got in touch to tell me her son had passed his GCSE's - she was proud of him, I was proud of her

 

At the time I was doing that work, I was asked for help by a family friend, she was having immense difficulties with her eldest son. He was behaving in lots of ways like the children I worked with. There were two other children in the family who were completely 'normal', nothing made sense - I'm not going to put too much detail since this is a public forum but in most respects this was a normal functioning middle class family. It just happened I was at a psychology conference that year and went to a lecture on ADHD - it was 'new' at the time and I strongly felt this was a possibility for this child. I wasn't qualified to diagnose nor would it have been professional but suggested he saw someone who was and indeed he subsequently was diagnosed.

 

Fast forward 20 years and cases where there are clear environment causes are being labelled ADHD and medicated so it's no wonder the general public have the view that it's more prevalent in bad families - although how many do you actually KNOW have actually been diagnosed by a clinical psychologist/psychiatrist? Or how many are simply diagnosed by parents looking for an excuse?

 

A quick google of ADHD causes shows pretty much a concensus that it is NOT caused by parenting.

 

And as I said before learning disabilities are if anything over diagnosed at the other end of the social scale.

 

As its a clinical diagnosis, there is no definitive test for ADHD. In other words diagnosis is more art than science, as it is with other DSM IV mental health diagnoses. Therefore I suppose it is difficult for studies to categorically prove anything with regard to aetiology. All I know is that in my line of work, the kids I have met with ADHD tend to be those with chaotic home lives. It seems as if despite the chaotic environment, they are massively understimulated

[starlight7]

What about this 'Asbergers '- is it related to ADHD do you think? That seems to be the 'disease' of choice for unruly kids round here!